And I can tel you waht happens if a pilot really becomes too close to god (one-sided, certainly).

One of the companies that I consult had in general very good people in the flight deck, causing no problems at all, even if Hell went lose due to maintenance, weather, undecisive customers (that's someting quite usual in the cargo business) etc. etc. etc.

But there were a very few, that could make your life miserable. They new it all (even when they were almost arrested in India by customs officers), never were late ('that stupid cab driver did not find the cargo terminal - ah, Captain, you were supposed to check in at the passenger side!), and generally new soooo well how to fly an airplane, that the F/O usually called up the fleet captain and refused to fly with the guys another time...

That said, the spirited leader, considering himself to be the absolute picture of god and the best pilot ever, had to go to the sim. Guess what, he failed! Given a second chance, the guy shows up totally unprepared again (don't forget , he invented flying) and flunks it again. He's gone and noone shed a tear!

------------------
There's nothing like a three-holer...

i'm with KYGMSY on this one 100%.the comments made to his initial post by members of the flightdeck fraternity only go to prove his point.you guys stay on the flightdeck-i doubt most of you could hack it in the real world.

Yeah, & where is this 'real' world?
Another candidate for CRM.

Dear Lozza,

Your comment , <you guys stay on the flightdeck-i doubt most of you could hack it in the real world.>


I've lived in the real world for donkeys years. As an apprentice engineer for B.O.A.C., a ground engineer for the same, a Flight Engineer for B.A., an F/O for B.A., a Capt. for B.A.

Show me where the real world is then.

Perhaps it is time to leave this odd place.


Regards
Exeng


[This message has been edited by exeng (edited 04 November 2000).]

Deary me, what a fuss!

It is generally well known who I work for and the guys there are a good bunch in the main. Certainly the lifers anyway. (with the possible exception of ONE who shall remain nameless).

Bredcounter writes:
"Phuked off with having to wet nurse a small minority of drivers who could never do our jobs..............."

Poor deluded soul. It would take me 4 weeks to learn your job but it would take you considerably more to get qualified in mine. I never tell OPS how to do their job. I do, however, feel at liberty to question certain decisions. If they don't like it TUFF!

KGMSY, it may sound very amusing to waltz into a flight deck and ask if the bugs have been set etc., except there's only one problem: you're not qualified to ask that question. You wouldn't know whether the pilots were telling the truth or not. So you should sit down, be silent, and speak when spoken to only.

The majority of ops guys are good at their job and they understand that we have certain responsibilities. We also have a thing called a licence which we don't want to lose because some pressurised Ops manager has to keep the show on the road. Would you deny that ocasionally (granted, rarely) you try it on with us and cajole us into flying outside of our limits?

KGMSY, Boredcounter, get a life or get a licence.

BTW, don't you have some hotacs to book or something?


------------------
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

Secret Squirrel,

Thank you very much for your comments. I believe those comments were exactly what K…. was expecting to hear from a Tuff professional like you?!

("Poor deluded soul. It would take me 4 weeks to learn your job but it would take you considerably more to get qualified in mine. I never tell OPS how to do their job. I do, however, feel at liberty to question certain decisions. If they don't like it TUFF!")

1. My experience tells me that, someone who speaks like you do not "survive" long enough to be released in any OOPS Department. I trained an ex-pilot which took me considerable amount of time and patience. Lesson nbr1 was how to do a flight plan. Lesson nbr2 was about I.T. and nbr3 What do the pilots need???!!
After two years he is doing OK..??!! But, that one was the first and the last one.
I can bet you that relatively speaking it will take less time a certified Ops person vs civilian ab-initio becoming a pilot than a certified commercial pilot vs certified Ops doing Ops.
My percentage!
2. The liberty to ask questions is in both directions, how we make them is another issue and decisions we all have to carry sometimes together.

("KGMSY, it may sound very amusing to waltz into a flight deck and ask if the bugs have been set etc., except there's only one problem: you're not qualified to ask that question. You wouldn't know whether the pilots were telling the truth or not. So you should sit down, be silent, and speak when spoken to only." )

3. Once again I disagree; There are pilots that need to be told to read the MEL and proceed immediately to the destination;

("The majority of ops guys are good at their job and they understand that we have certain responsibilities. We also have a thing called a licence which we don't want to lose because some pressurised Ops manager has to keep the show on the road. Would you deny that occasionally (granted, rarely) you try it on with us and cajole us into flying outside of our limits?)

("KGMSY, Boredcounter, get a life or get a licence.")

4. We all can buy Pieces of paper on the Market depending on the budget if it is yours or from your Parents. There are certified personnel with "things" every where which can be lost for one reason or another. Insurance might be an option to keep them.

So, Prestigious Operations Gentlemen and Intruders,

I do not agree with some K… points and I think he or his Department showed some problems that only one person can solve and certainly you (S.S.) are not the one, because your comments look like coming from a "Negro on the right seat flying with some s***t Airline in Europe…!"

S.S. make sure the needles are centred on your next ILS and please read the Notam´s before you go to bed. Sweat dreams.

I Steel feel the need for Speeeed…..!!!!!!!
Mach.99

Mach 99, dear boy, do calm down. Could it be that those noble pilots' inability to grasp your modus operandum could be a reflection on your inadequate teaching abilities?. You see, a monkey can teach a monkey, hence why you can teach other 'normal people' to pick ants out of a log using a twig. However, put a monkey in charge of a pro like a pilot and of course he's not going to learn. Let's face it, we're much further up the evolutionary ladder than you and this thread demonstrates it all quite clearly.

Now run along and prepare some pilot briefings or something. Or better still, go and buy yourself a dictionary and learn to spell my language correctly.

Perspiring dreams to you too.

------------------
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

Ladies and Gents,

I'm afraid that what started off with some good discussion has, yet again, ended in nothing more than an eloquent display of chest beating (Whilst we are on the subject of Monkeys!).

We (Ops personnel) all know the stereotypical pilot, head up his own arse, shoulders puffed out with self importance, with an opinon that everyone else is trying to somehow climb out of the primordial soup.

And the flight deck have their own stereotypical Ops bod. Never knows what day of the week it is, resents them for being up there, not intelligent enough to get a proper job and slightly unbalanced due to the chips of differing severity on each shoulder!

As always, the seteotype bears little resemblance to the reality. If we were all as described above then God help the aviation industry. Or at least the Pax that travel with it.

Pilots, please don't assume we will respect you for the position you hold. We won't. We will respect you for your attitude, professionalisum, and the drinks you buy us after work.

Ops people, Don't assume every little dig at the system is a personal attack on you. The majority of flightdeck do respect the job you do, and would not be able to, or indeed want to hack it in the Ops room. (So they tell me!).

Respect and trust are two way traffic. Regardless of if you are a Chief pilot, low houred F/O, Ops Manager, Crewing Officer or the Ops gopher, don't expect trust or respect unless you are willing to grant the same to colleagues.

Those of you, on both sides, who are unable to do this should leave those of us who can to get on with operating a proffesional and happy ship.!

Amen.

Well done "You Splitter" some excellent points very well made.

Yes all AIRCREW should have respect, that applies to pilots and junior aircrew. Alas that does not allways apply in both directions.

I have to say, my dealings with non-UK aircrew are Very interesting. They are ALLWAYS polite and often call us "Sir" not that I would every want that, but I have to say there is a huge difference between UK and non-UK aircrew (what does everyone else think?). When one is spoken to in such a way you really want to go that extra mile for them.

Secondly, the skills required to pilot an aircraft have changed fantastically over the last 60 years. The 19 year old guys who flew a lancaster to Berlin and back in 1943 with 200 hours total time - total heroes. Getting a DC-7 across the pond in January during the 1950's, hey thats class. You do not need the same skills to get a B777 across the pond today. Different, yes, but boy, its easier.

Thirdly, In those early post war days, when the aircraft left base the commander had so many other "external" tasks with his remitt which are now left to ops and crewing.

So to some up. Yes all aircrew positions should be treated with respect ( thats respect for the position not necessarily the individual). Times have changed and I don't think many UK aircrew appreciate that. We are ALL ONE TEAM now. Treat us well and you will be amazed what we can do for you.

PS I have noticed a current trend where Captains will try and get ops to make decisions which are undoubtedly only the Captains to make. So if its wrong....they have your name and can blame you !!!!
Would never of happened 15 years ago.
I'm happy to make those decisions, but only If I can have the captains pay.

All pilots,

I suggest you all read the following from You Splitter's post :

We will respect you for your attitude, professionalisum, and the drinks you buy us after work.

Come on guys, if we both do our jobs properly there is no need for pilots to query stupid things like can we really take x number of pax ?? If we couldn't we obviously would not have taken the job on.

Waco - I for one always treat aircrew with the same respect they give me. Pilots who ask me SENSIBLE questions will receive an answer to the best of my ability / knowledge. Pilots who ask ridiculous questions I have little respect for as they think we can't do our job or are taking the piss. I often think with one particular pilot he thinks I don't know/can't do something because of my age.

<We are ALL ONE TEAM now. Treat us well and you will be amazed what we can do for you.>

This needs to be emphasised more.

Secret Squirrel :

<It would take me 4 weeks to learn your job but it would take you considerably more to get qualified in mine.>

Are you implying that our job is a piece of piss and yours is so highly ranked that you are only second to god ??.

SECOND?!? Oh ye of little faith. ;)

DO NOT READ
For Secret Squirrel only, :)

I though you were clever enough to notice my foreign accent, you are curious, ha?
I am going to help you. ENGLISH IS NOT MY MOTHER TONGUE! All clear now? Good!
Although I am not French or German my accent his sufficient to make myself understandable to W****S like you besides I believe that I can write better English than you would be able to write or spell my Mother Tongue!

Which kind of pro are you? Not that I am interested in but I am starting to be concerned with your future? Shouldn't you be flying some where like a "real pro" which takes orders from the Left Seat? Or you prefer the Flight Simulator 2000?
Maybe your Chief Pilot told you to perform a proficiency check and instead of that, like a "bull!!!! pro" you decided to learn a little bit with Operations Forums? Don't you have a girl friend or a boy friend to play with? Do not make them sad and start reading those approach plates, unless you want to be on the 800 Clock news, like a "Another star".

Sweat dreams!
Mach.99

I steel feel the need for Speeeed?!


[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 10 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 10 November 2000).]

Look Guys, I recently found this forum and the first thing that came into my head was, "I bet I find an anti-pilot thread on here". Lo and behold my suspicions were well founded. So I thought, right, I'm gonna wind 'em up a bit. I could have gone for the moderate approach such as some have done here but KGMSY's approach was to pilot bash, so I thought I would OPS bash a little.

It may be a little late to be taken seriously but in reality I don't consider myself above anybody in my industry. You have your job to do and I have mine. I don't tell other people in my industry how to do their job. If I think they are hindering the progress of my day I ask for an explanation and don't use this as an excuse to ask SILLY questions. I rarely ask operations anything to do with their decisions such as A/C changes, or re-routing of flight plans etc. Sometimes I may ask out of interest later, but this is because I take an interest in how and why decisions are made, perhaps to better understand subsequent changes. Sometimes I call in and they say, "You're not going to do DUB now, you're off to NCE". I'm sorry but I like to know why. Not that it makes much difference I just like to be told, so they tell me. Also, if I'm flying in the air the last thing I want to do is get my OPS Manual out and check my duty times so I ask them to make sure that it can be done. I don't do this unless I'm sceptical. When I get on the ground I check for myself, but in the meantime it may have escaped their notice and they will have more time to execute any necessary changes.

What annoyed me about your thread, KGMSY, is that I find it banal to go on about a couple of individuals who might well be @rseholes even to me as if it were the norm. You get them in all walks of life and the pilot fraternity is certainly no exception and nor is the OPS fraternity.

Mach.99, don't take offence, I was joking and I'm sure you're not a monkey. In reality, I don't know how long it would take me to get proficient at your job. I guess it rather depends on the interest with which I might pursue it, that's as humble as you're gonna get.

We don't have to make split decisions EVERY day, mostly the days go very smoothly and in large part it has to do with everyone around us. We just turn up, press a few buttons, sign a few bits of paper, point the airplane in the right direction and off we go. I appreciate that you have a lot more hectic days than we do with temperamental planes, wx, and yes, troublesome captains and F/O's. I'm sure I don't have to patronise you all about our hectic days (infrequent as they might be), but I'm sure that on the odd ocasions that our training is really put to the test you are glad that you are on the ground.

This in no way excuses real idiots and KGMSY, I'm not sure you know what a real idiot is yet.

Hey, Mach.99 I've just read your post. i guess I deserved that and accept the slap with dignity. E-mail me and we can sort this out in a friendly way.

Regards, Secret Squirrel.

[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 10 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 10 November 2000).]

Secret Squirrel,

Not all of us took your comments that seriously. There is a reason you probably got jumped on. Normally anytime a pilot does come down here the only contribution we get is piss taking of one form or another. I guess we get fed up of it sometimes.
Nice to see a serious constructive post for a change.
Cheers

Secret Squirrel,

Damn glad for that last post of yours, was about to draw my light sword and hack your high-flying arse to pieces. But as I should have expected, you are most probably the kind of chap who has us OPS guys going the extra mile. You see, most of us actually like the job we do, most like your sort I guess. And belive you me, it's actuall fun when the s**t starts hitting the fan, a/c goes tech, weather closes in, back-up's are out of position and the stand-by crew's can't get into to work because some damn idiot turned his 18 wheeler tits up on the road blocking all access. This is when we earn our pay, and the last thing you really need in a situation like this is an obnoxious pilot asking stupid questions (like is my hotel near downtown, and are you sure it's a 5 star). Doesn't happen very often, but I've been asked that very question on occasion.

However, in general the coop between OPS & flightdeck is very proffessional and to the point. The no nonsens approach.

I know you were joking when you called us "frustrated wannabe's" (or similar). Well, must admit there is some truth in that. Quite a few OPS people only work there while they collect enough hours to jump ship for a flying job. Good for them, but the rest of us decided for various reasons to stick to the ground except when going on vacation or something. I don't envy you guys at all (but would like your pay-check though :-) ) for a number of reasons. Principal of which is that I can actually have a life outside of my work, and apart from week-ends always know where I'm going to sleep at night.

Glad we got the thread back on track.

PS. My native language is (surprisingly) not english. But only 4.5 million of the world population can read and talk my tongue, so for all praticial purposes I do manage getting the message across in your language. On the other hand, the percentage of babes in this part of the world is directly proportional to the tax rate. Probably the only thing that has kept me here :-)

Smokin'

amidst all the "flightdeck are w*****s//ops are s**t" nonsense,thankfully now resolved before the imminent onset of claret,one highlt interesting point made by waco.
dunno if anyone else has found this but his comments about johnny foreigner flightdeck crew being more receptive/professional/polite etc. definitely rang true in my ears.
without wishing to start any more aggro,seems that they definitely require less mollycoddling than their UK counterparts.
anyone else have experience of this and any suggestions why ?

Secret Squirrel
I just read your post.
I am glad to know you a little bit better.
Happy Landings,
Cheers!

Mach.99
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
I steel feel the need for Speeed!

And they all lived happily ever after!

Merely a suggestion Lozza but if you're thinking particularly of US crews their despatchers are trained, examined and licenced. The subjects covered mean weather, weight and balance and performance issues are discussed (in the technical sense) amongst equals

There is a depth to their knowledge that may well ensure greater mutual respect.

------------------
Regards from the Towers

[email protected]

Far be it from me P.Towers, but this humble UK based ops guy has :
1 FAA Flight Dispatchers licence from an American University
2 PPL
3 16 years in the business
4 1000 hours on the flight deck jump seat.
(sad I know, but I've logged them)
5 Lots of nice UK O and A level passes
etc....etc...etc...
Therefore I assume from your comment that I SHOULD have "knowledge that ensures a greater mutual respect"

My level of "knowledge" is not unique in the ops room, I could easily name many collegues with frozen ATPL IR,class 1 degrees etc.

I really don't want to fall out but in my humble experience those non UK guys, especially those from the "new world" really are more polite and friendly to deal with.

Appreciate your thoughts....

Oh and by the way, most of us are desperate to obtain a JAR licence with similar standing to the FAA flight dispatch, ie ATPL level.