Bloody Pilots Trying To Run Ops
 

Does anyone else have any pilots that keep telling us how to do your job ??

Typical questions are :-

have you filed flight plans ?
have you booked a hotel ?
will it fit in our fdp ?

And I always get :

I have to be off in 4 days..

Just fly the f***ing plane !!!!!

Well said young man...How would they like it we if walked into their office and said..

Have you set the V-Speed's?
Have you checked the ATIS?
Have you put the fuel in?

Seriously though, it all depends on how they ask and what YOUR attitude is.

Like you, they are just trying to do their job and as THEY ARE SENIOR to you, it is their job to also confirm you have done yours.

In my previous company ALL Operations & Crewing personnel did a CRM course not just the guy's at the sharp end.

CHILL OUT and learn to ignore them or you will find yourself loading bag's before you know it. They of course will still be pilots and the world will continue as normal, only without you in the ops room.

Whooaahh!!!

Depends on the company but I have had days when the answer to all 3 questions was NO! (Although that is not the answer they gave us of course).
Its our ultimate responsiblity to ensure flight plans are filed, that we have sufficient rest to operate next flight and that we don't operate outside of the legal rules. Sometimes ops/crewing try to push it that little bit further....

Now I am not saying that you do, but if you are regularly being asked these questions by pilots then either you are not doing your job properly, they don't know what you do, or there is a complete lack of communication between you.

Just a thought.

Whooaahh
Quote: Like you, they are just trying to do their job and as THEY ARE SENIOR to you, it is their job to also confirm you have done yours.Unquote

Accepted they have a right to ask questions, as a vast majority have difficulty in reading a brief that would answer all their questions, BUT PLEASE, NO WAY ARE THEY SENIOR.

If that's the case in your company you have my deepest sympathy. This is not ground ops v flight ops, you work as a team, and show each other mutual respect, nothing more nothing less.

KYGMSY
You seem to have suffered from a long hard summer http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/nuts.gif
The attitude you display is what gives ground ops a bad name, climb down off your hobby horse http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net5/readpb.gif
Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you get these questions, perhaps the answer lies within the quality of the service being offered. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/moon.gif

KYGMSY
forget it mate, comes with the CPL, they know everything. Try saying I don't know, When do you run out of hours? or, file your own plan coz I don't know how to, and sit back, drink coffee and watch the B**Tard sweat. ATPL owners are better, MEL issue, need advice, refer them to the Tech Pilot, or Fleet office for a call, then take lunch while you wait................
Like I say mate, comes with the territory, JUST KNOW YOUR JOB, you do your ok
Whooaahh,
we all know that Italy ain't in the real world....................
we have crews loading baggage down there.
Third world aviation, SENIOR TO YOU, Buck up
pal.................................. Enjoy th Ops world, it is good, just do not let the bast**ds grind you down!

Kygmsy, read Grandad Flyer's comments, his point is well made. The key to a good relationship with most aircrew is to adopt and work in as a professional manner as, most of them do - note I did not say all. Aircrew are no different from others in our industry some are easy to work with others are not. That applies to Ops bods as well.

Senior?, no they are not senior least they are in management and their positions defined as such, but they do carry considerable responsibility in the safe operation of the aircraft, your considerable responsibility is in the exercise of operational control over that aircraft.

Lalapanzi is right, it is team work. Our job is to exercise operational control and to support the crew in the exercise of their duties. Take time out to read your Ops Manual again and see where you fit in.

Take a balanced approach in dealing with with aircrew, if it gets testy, get professional. If you have a prima dona, and I think they are a dying breed, address him as Captain, insist that he address you as Mister.

Bloody Pilots? they'll be saying Bloody Ops!

Work to foster a healthy working relationship, its not always easy I know but it is part and parcel of running a safe airline and you're part of the team that makes a difference.

All good points....

Yes it is annoying when crew ask you if you have filed the flightplans, or if their hotac is booked, or if you have advised the late crews the a/c is now 2 and a half hours late. And no we would never dare walk into the sharp end of the a/c and ask if the gear is down, have the bugs been set or if they've checked cabin secure before landing!

However, any member of crew who's had a long s*it day and then has to wait two hours for their hotel room, because a reservation was missed, is bound to want check their hotac is booked the next time they fly.

Again, any pilot who has sat on stand and had to explain to 130 pissed off pax that the reason they can't leave for another 90mins is because there was no FPL in the system, is certain to check there is a flight plan for the next sector.

At the end of the day if these questions are becoming the norm the maybe you should ask yourself are you delivering the best service.
I tend to find that once you have developed trust between the flightdeck and the operations room, then you will rarely get asked these kind of questions.

If your flightplans are (nearly) always in, your hotac always booked etc, and you still get this type of behaviour then I would suggest telling the 'boss', who will hopefully contact the fleet manager to inform these boys to wind their f'ing necks in!

Used to know a pilot who would sit in the ops room when things had gone pear shaped and say, "why don't you send this one here," or "how about cancelling that one there".

Now that is bl**dy annoying!!!!

To be honest, I try and not let it get to me. I've put up with it for ages now and I've had enough !!

Being the generous person that I am, I did their plogs for them once and got the weather for them. Now the b***ards are always on the phone - "can you do the plogs and get the weather ?". Go f**k off.

I'll have to take your advice with the "have you set the v speeds ??" I'll use that.

Even the new F/O's are on the phone - "I have to have 2 days off soon".

Cheers

I dont pretend to have all the answers and yes, over my 16 years in the business, I've dropped a few clangers!!!

However, thats 16 years in the UK charter market. I don't know it all, far from it.

However, whenever you try and just give some junior jet jockey (loads of hours sure but straight out of the air force, night cargo, helicopters, cranfield) the occasional word of wisdom, one wastes ones breath. Shame really. Like everyone else out there you try and help..... alas the bronze god always knows best ( I asked you not to divert to BRD there is no fuel there, like I told you before departure).

But, I'll say this much.....it only happends with UK aircrew. Speak to a Canadian, American, finn etc... They speak you like a professional, they operate like professionals and all you want to do is do the very best you can for them. Why oh why cannot UK aircrew realise that :

AA/ They are just part of the team.
BB/ Following a purple line and typing on an
FMC does not make you a god.

(Although a 19 year old flying a Lancaster to Berlin in 1942 would). In the old days the aircraft were made of wood and the pilots were made of steel......Alas.

KYGMSY

I don't think that the crews intend any insult to your professionalism by asking these questions.
The flight deck culture of challenge and response via the checklist encourages an atmosphere where crewmembers can query another crewmembers actions without it being seen as an insult. I have no problem with the F/O (or the dispatcher) asking me if I have remembered to do something, because I am not perfect (and getting less so with advancing years), and that question might, one day, save my life. It is vital for everyones safety that we all work as a team. I have spent several days 'shadowing' our dispatchers so that I can understand their problems. I suggest that you try to fix up some jump-seat flights so that you can see the other side of the story.

Best Wishes

Airclues

I have been on a few jump seat rides and I do understand that arriving at the destination with no flight plan filed for the return resulting in a 3 hour wait due to a slot can be frustrating. The thing is, some Captain's started doing it, then it wears of on all the golden-bollocks first officers who have only been in the game for 2 weeks !!!

The other day, we received a fax from a captain wanting us to phone the client and re change the schedule to suit him !!!!!!

Ever seen the cartoon Stressed Eric ?

I'M ERIC !!!

If your that stressed out your in the wrong profession or in dire need of a holiday ;)

Here are some tips from a previous topic on stress, try them they just may work for you!1.Structure each day to include a minimum of 20 minutes of aerobic exercise.
2.Eat well balanced meals, more whole grains, nuts, fruits and vegetables. 3.Substitute fruits for desserts.
4.Avoid caffeine. The substance may aggravate anxiety, insomnia, nervousness and trembling.
5.Reduce refined sugars. Excess sugars cause frequent fluctuation in blood glucose levels, adding stress to the body's physiological functioning.
6.Reduce alcohol and drugs. These substances may add to headaches and swelling, decrease coping mechanisms and add to depression.
7.Get a least 7 hours of sleep nightly.
8.Spend time each day with at least one relaxation technique - imagery, daydreaming, prayer, yoga or meditation.
9.Take a warm bath or shower.
10.Go for a walk.
11.Get in touch! Hug someone, hold hands, or stroke a pet. Physical contact is a great way to relieve stress.
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So when the next pilot comes in the office, showing all the signs of being stressed out, before you tell him to get some sleep, go for a walk, hug them - then duck

Just need to add my 2 pennies worth:
In my experience, which has dealt with crews from all over the planet, the vast majority is a nice bunch who only ask operationally well-funded questions. However, every now and then a hard head will waltz into your office, confident that he is the closet thing to God than man has seen for 2000 years. There is no way a mere mortal will ever convince him that anything he says, does, eats or breathes is anything but perfect, and that he ('cause it is NEVER a she) has every right to command your full attention to his every problem or concern. There is but one way to deal with these people: Professionally, cool, detached ! And when the (explicit) has vacated terra firma, make sure to write a nastygram to his chief pilot explaining how he corrupted your operation. Mind you, whilst the aircraft is on the ground, the flight deck crew must remain seated in their crew lounge, preparing whatever they need to and leave you alone to mind YOUR end of the business.

Smokin'

I've only been in the industry for four years, but I've enjoyed every moment of it (I probably haven't said thad that everyday, but it's true). Ok you do find some crew members that you just cannot get away with, it might be a clash of personalities. At he end of the day we have to grin and bear it. If you asked them to do your job, they would probably say no, because A. They dont know your job, and B. They probably do respect you for doing it, but do not show you that.

If they are having a bad day because of fog somewhere, they are probably thinking at least Ops will be pulling their hair out aswell, and vice-versa.

I've dropped some right bollocks in my time, one fairly recently. An aircraft diverted to Lille, so I put a flight-plan in departing from Lille. I then got a call off the crew to say there was no flight plan, here's me thinkg there definitely is, until I looked at the departure station....it wasn't Lille. I just appologised and that was the end of it, the Captains word were "Mistakes happen to everyone".

Keep smiling

If that happened to me mate, the captain would say "OPS F**K UP AS USUAL". I've never heard a pilot say "mistakes happen". Usually "those b***ards on the ground got it wrong again" It's not often at all that we forget anything.

kygmsy
Either you're the problem or you've got particularly snotty bunch of crews, why don't you get out there with them and build some bridges.

No sig

giving all the pilots the weekend off and going for an indian, night outs etc. didn't change a thing.

Cheers

KYGMSY
What a whinger! You would make an excellent pilot!!

WELL !!! I've got to say; never have I heard so much envious drivel in all my life.
All these comments only confirm my suspicions that most ( not all ) op's people are only frustrated wannabe pilots who have these enourmous chips on their shoulders, far outweighing any senior pilot's eppaulettes that he/she may be sporting.
AH!! There will always be the do'ers and the
tryhards and my dear KYGMSY YOU ARE DEFINITELY THE LATTER.
Just do youself a favour and get another job
where your the boss and no-one will question anything you do ( howabout an owner-operator, as you already obviously qualify )
Obviously none of the flight crew have any faith in you, and its little wonder with your attitude.
SNAP OUT OF IT MAN!!

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Play it again Sam, I said play it !

Flameout... All Ops staff are frustrated wannabe's! I seriously hope this is not the view of the majority of aircrew about Ops bod's. If it is no wonder the poor boy has problems with his crew.

Envious....? Maybe sometimes, but only because airline senior management has always viewed Ops as a department that does nothing but cost, cost, cost.(At least thats the way it used to be when I sat in an Ops room.) They don't have that view of u lot. So, maybe, on the odd occasion, envious of that. But I have never wanted to be a pilot. I don't like the 'suitcase' lifestyle and I never grew up as a Kid dreaming of pushing buttons at FL300.

Having said that you do get a lot of PPL's "this could be my big break" types looking for jobs. Generally they make the worst Ops people in the world. And if any of them want to know why, in the words of a great Jedi.
"Your mind is always on where you are going, never where you are at now".

Regards,


[This message has been edited by You splitter (edited 21 October 2000).]

Flame out no 1
Y A W N
Next time you ban your wife from from using the FTLS to get home, make sure you know the rules, cos the phukwit at my mob didn't...........he the pilot had to ask. chip on each shoulder........another of our pilots phoned to ask what side the football was on........11 buttons to dial, four on Teletext.......chip on each shoulder, no not us, Phuked off with having to wet nurse a small minority of drivers who could never do our jobs...............
Sim twice a year, big pressure, you fail you live, medical, twice a year, you fail, you get paid to recover, my real time job has just the same pressure..........
Oh I don't have a bit of paper that sais I'm a GOD, but you all tell me what a shyte job I do,
Wipe your own arses for once...........


edit to tone down


and by the way, next time you are told your slot is due arrivals restricions at your destination airfield, do you yell, "CAN YOU NOT REROUTE US"
Think about it.............To%%ER

Chip, .....................Yeah rightoh


[This message has been edited by boredcounter (edited 21 October 2000).]

WIND.........WIND.........WIND.......WIND,
Gee you guys take yourselves too seriously.
Bwhaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaahaaaa!!!!!!!!
Have a nice day!!!!

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Play it again Sam, I said play it !

We have more pilot problems than ops problems. Remember guys, it's because of us that you do any flying at all.

Remember the joke :
What's the difference between god and pilots ?


God does not think he's a pilot.

Flame
Don't know what it's like in the land of Oz,
WIND WIND WIND gets right up my nose......
I work twelve hours under undue commercial pressure to make my Airline work. That is my working day. Can I pass it on to you guys......Not in my country. If it wasn't for all those innocent fare payers straped into the same ally tube as the pilots, my standard response would be " you decide what's best SIR"
I console myself every night in the fact pilots are just like children, only children grow out of it.....................


Me, never want to learn to fly, could be sitting next to a TW£t for too long

------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle

Flameout_No1

I've seen this post many times
When you've finished building your hours and get your first job as a junior F/O you will understand better

Ladies and Gentlemen on both sides of the great air/ground divide.
This is a team game and the objective is to get shiney plane from point A to point B with the minimum of casualties, and hopefully within an acceptable timeframe.
Both camps have a smattering of genius, a handful of idiots.
Its called the human condition, and its only a career choice that determines who sits where. QED.

Well said Mr.Mayhem.....

With a name like that you would be equally at home in the Ops room or the Flight deck! :)

Quote :

I console myself every night in the fact pilots are just like children, only children grow out of it.....................


Sadly it is so true.

Having said all the above, we have some absolutely fantastic pilots - I'm not trying to show myself as an anti-pilot guy.

KYGMSY,

You stated, <I'm not trying to show myself as an anti-pilot guy.> And yet you also said, <I console myself every night in the fact pilots are just like children, only children grow out of it.....................>

Seems fairly anti pilot to me, but then what the hell do I know, I'm only a pilot! I'm just going to ask my Mum to change my nappy before driving to work.


Regards
Exeng.

What I'm implying is that there are pilots that take the p*** out of you saying we can't do our job and there are others who are always keen to do any flying, no hassle at all. These guys are great.

So if I've read this right, as long as pilots don't question you & do whatever you tell me, they're the good guy all rest are just trouble makers.

Book yourself on the next crm course you're in need of it :mad:

Dear KYGMSY,

You stated, <What I'm implying is that there are pilots that take the p*** out of you saying we can't do our job and there are others who are always keen to do any flying, no hassle at all. These guys are great.>

Not quite sure just what point it is you are making. By the way, pilots take the p**s out of everybody. They take particular pleasure when winding up one of their colleagues. It's all just 'A JOKE'.

When I've planted one (again) I expect a giggle or two, that's life I'm afraid. Now you Chaps & Chappesses also make 'admin errors'. And guess what? We take the p**s. Well no harm done then, it's better that than an official complaint isn't it?

About the 'others' who who are always keen to do any flying, no hassle at all. Will you do any work, any time? Personally I will only do extra work if it a)pays, and b)if it convenient to me. Call me a fool but that is the way I play it.


Regards
Exeng

Right!!!!,
I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home.
You Op's guys are way to smart for little old antipodean me.
Just like a POM, no sense of humour.
I think I hear mummy calling.




------------------
Play it again Sam, I said play it !

Flame

Hope you come back, love to know, Abo or POM convict offspring?

------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle

Maybe you should read my initial post again. There are pilots who don't question anything, get on with the job and don't ask daft question i.e. have you filed flight plans ? We have a few of these type of pilots who we get on well with and there's the other minority that always moan and complain and question everything i.e. have you booked us into a hotel ? I have to have 2 days off within the next week. Will it fit in our fdp ?

See where I'm coming from yet ???

I reckon I'm starting to get the picture!

You have some guys who'll fly for food and don't care too much about legality etc.

You have some other professional pilots who also have a life outside of work.

Give it a rest!!!

KYGMSY,

I believe that you need to look up to your belly, because if they ask you those type of questions is because there were previous incidents with you or with your mates over there;
If you want to play goods will to aviation that's fine, if you are being blamed for someone else I would suggest to grab the bull by the horns and show some professionalism for a change.

Do not take it personnal, but I hate when people start to criticise others as an excuse for not doing the job.

I forgot to present myself, I am Mach.99 and
I feel the need for speeeed!

Cheers!


Note:

Mach.99

I have always had flight plans filed, hotels, ground handling arranged etc etc....

Why they still check on all these things I do not know. It doesn't tie in with any of the above comments.

They complain that they never ( bollocks ) get given a crew brief - they always do they just always leave them on the pilots desk.

They get their plogs and forget them too. It's basic airmanship for pilots to check that they have all the necessary paperwork instead of realising at FL100 that they don't know which VOR they're going to next or which London airport they're going to.

Most replies in this topic have been down to professionalism. I Had a phone call from a pilot today asking to speak to ops manager. He was on another call and he asked me to pass a message on to him which was "can you ask him to find out how many pax were on return flight ?" How can the easiest question require an answer from the ops manager ??

Hey KYGMSY,
I think the reason for that is they know that you do not count well....??
Some time ago you may had told them that the primary school was not for you but for the Ops Manager only!! :rolleyes:

I steel feel the need for speeed...!
Mach.99
Hicks?!

[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 02 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 02 November 2000).]

Nothing new in this scenario...at the end of the day you get nice pilots and nasty pilots...and nice ops guys and nasty ops guys...the way of the world.

Believe it or not early in my ops career at a major operator I had a Chief Pilot who would come in to the ops room and say 'Hello guys, how are you, I can see you are busy would you like a cup of coffee?'

And one fateful night when we had nine diversions etc. etc. he sat next to me and answered the phones, keeping the pressure away from us in op so we could resolve the mess.

When I made the move to flight deck and then back to airline management I never forget this...there is no easy answer but at the end of the day it is the end result that counts,job satisfaction and having fun also help of course!