Eufalda

[mfarrar]

I recently attended a EUFALDA (European Airline Dispatchers Association) meeting in Frankfurt, which was quite interesting.
Leaving aside the argument that the role is not recognised in the UK (although probably will have to be, once EASA get their teeth into such things), there is no UK branch of this organisation.
Is this because nobody is interested?
If people are interested, maybe we need someone to sponsor a meeting to progress the issue?

[Low life]

Strangely enough brought the subject up today during a meeting with my Ops inspector. Although I have a reputation for being quiet, shy and retiring, I am also a, form 4, post holder, who is prepared to help take the fight forward.

[merlinxx]

UK Dispatchers

Many years ago we tried with the BGFOO, we were associated with IFALDA, but could we get any response from either our industry employers or the CAA, no we couldn't.

The Air Corporations BOAC/BEA had their own quals (no licence) through very good trng. From some of these practices came about the C&G Aviation Study programme (early 80s) at Redhill Tech north of LGW.

Suggest you start a thread for the now retired guys from BGFOO to get further background as I bugged off to the original sandpit for a FAA op.

Good luck folks, we tried & got somewhere at least.

[Epsilon minus]

Low Life,
I too am a form 4 approved PH. I would be very keen to link up with you with regards to lobbying the SRG for formally recognised training of ops/dispatchers the licence or certificatation process to be controlled by the PLD. Please contact me.
Regards
EM
PS Nosig please note.

[ninjaconnie]

Not qualified on paper, but as a 30-year in the industry bod with convictions for Ops control/crewing/rostering/flightplanning/load control/sweeping the runway I would agree the departments are crying out for some kind of academic/technical licencing. (wouldn't hurt the salaries either).
Count me in for future arrangements. In the meantime I'm trying to get round to an FAA licence.

Ninja

[Epsilon minus]

Ninja,
Hold your horses for a while. Take time to explore the alternatives to FAR65 especially those that hold the potential to influence EASA and EU-OPS in the not too distant future. It will be the clever people in Ops that will hold sway and set the trends for the future.
Rgds
EM

[ninjaconnie]

Thanks EM. I know the Germans/Scandinavians have their own 'licences': one would hope that any EuroDispatch ticket would be (loosely) based on their
curriculum. Was that what you were implying? Insider knowledge could be most useful here.
Apart from that, do we have a contact/target name within EASA yet to begin the process?

Regards
The Connie

[no sig]

The question that has still to be answered is:

Are we looking to move to FAA 121 dispatch in Europe, and the license requirements that go with that; or, are we striving for a requirement for flight operations officer accreditation (license) aligned with ICAO Doc. 7192 D3 training requirements or the EASA equivalent, but without joint pilot/dispatcher responsibilities? This is a key question I believe. Personally, I just can't see that European airlines will support the introduction of FAR121 dispatch, nor do I think a real case on the basis of flight safety can adequately be made to do so, even though I do think that it is the better system.

What I have no doubt about however; is that there is a fundamental requirement for the regulation of training and accreditation of the Flight Operations Officer/Dispatcher on the grounds that personnel with operational responsibilities must be trained to recognised standard (such as the ICAO 7192Syllabus) and that in the course of their duties they do, directly contribute to flight safety. It cannot be left to the airline to decide what training is required for operations officers anymore than an airline is left to decide what their pilots or engineers are required to know. There must be a regulated standard accreditation and not just vague statements in regulation which provides the airline with enough wriggle room to avoid training as we know it should be.

ICAO defined it all in the basic recommendation and set a syllabus in doc. 7192 D3, although a tad dated, IFALDA has done much good work with Montreal in bringing it up to date. EASA has a golden opportunity to turn this around within Europe, without inducing apoplexy amoungst airline executives who fear the power of the flight dispatch as known in the USA. We need a common European standard of flight operations officer training, approved training establishments, examination and licensing regulated by our authorities. Remove the concern and ignorance over joint pilot/dispatcher repsonsibilites and I think it just might happen.

[mfarrar]

Flight Dispatchers

Thankyou, "nosig", for your very interesting response (and to everyone else who has responded).
I got the impression, at the EUFALDA meeting, that they also feel it is more to do with training and the accreditation that would go with a standardised approach to that accross the whole of Europe. They appeared to think that the FAA-style dispatch system (shared responsibility) could not be forced - but might come about eventually anyway, if pilots felt that a properly trained dispatcher always gave a better (and safer) service.
They did, however, bring up the IATA "Operational Safety Audit" (IOSA), which is designed to assess the operational management and control systems of an airline - and which will impact on European operators once EASA start to require it. Standardised and consistent levels of training will then have to be accepted by all.
It seems, from the responses, that there is some UK interest and that maybe something needs to be done to start the ball rolling. Question is, who and how?

[mfarrar]

I don't know who myself, but it is possible that the ERA (European Regional Airlines Association) might know who is dealing with Ops issues at EASA. They would certainly be dealing with them.



The Baker Suite, Fairoaks Airport, Chobham Woking, Surrey, GU24 8HX, UK
TELEPHONE : [phone]
FAX :[phone]
EMAIL : [email protected] WEB : www.eraa.org | www.fly-safely.org

[the bald eagle]

mfarrar

"It seems, from the responses, that there is some UK interest and that maybe something needs to be done to start the ball rolling. Question is, who and how?"

Seeing as you work for Air Data why don't you add this little number to
their portfolio

Also how much longer have we got to wait for the new Swiftops system?

[no sig]

The ball in the UK has been rolling for a very long time, it just hasn't happened because the UK CAA hasn’t taken the issue on board. The UKOMA group have been discussing the issue for years.

JAROPS1 was changed three years or fours years ago to include, the relevant part, ICAO 7192 D3 as the training reference for operations officers but does not require any formal training accreditation. Many airlines have defaulted to training their ops bods to the FAA license, which is a valuable certificate for sure, it just doesn’t meet the training requirements for European operations, in my opinion and why would it, the US FAR is very different system.

[Low life]

The CAA are mainly Pilots and only care about Pilots. Try and bring up the subject and it is blanked.
Why would UKOMA want to do anything about it, if you licensed Ops guys and you would have to pay them more, just what every Ops manager wants.
BALPA have gone out of their way, in the past, to block any move as it would “erode their member’s authority”.
The ERAA has been mentioned, the Head of their Technical section was the best Ops guy I have ever come across (a fine judge of single malt as well). Maybe he could lobby on his members behalf, but then you would need the ERAA member companies’ policy makers to bring up the subject, which brings you back to the UKOMA situation
The only way I could see it happening if some young Inv reporter jumped on the If the rest of the civilised World sees its as a factor towards flight safety why are we not doing it even though it is in our rules and regulations pertaining to the safe Operation of flights.

[the bald eagle]

Good post Low Life (not quite the post name i would use for someone whos sounds quie intelligent) But how much more dosh could we expect if we do all end up as qualified operations officers? ...My guv would have 50000 fits if he had to pay another dollar I would be intrested on what you guys think should be a fair wage for a UK qualified ops geezer / geezer bird for all the sh!t we put up with espically during the nights working on your own getting grief from some toss pot captain sitting on some beech in the caribbean with his f*****g pina colada in his hand wanting to gripe over his return flight plans - life sucks at times!!
Any takers on the wage issue?

[no sig]

Low Life has dragged up the history of those who are ill-informed (not suggesting he is by the way, quite the opposite) on the matter and BALPA may well be or may have been. This pilot back lash of the past is based on the change to FAA joint responsibility- I don't think we will ever go that way in Europe. But he has hit the nail on the head with respect to the way this issue was approached some years ago. We've moved on from this way of thinking, at least I hope we have and I have some hope that EASA and many European airlines.

As a former member of UKOMA, I do not recall us ever discussing the issue of salaries being a major factor in any of this- sure there will be some, but UKOMA's focus has, since the 80's, been on training ;to the extent we set up our own courses, which many of you will have been on.

UK airlines have paid and are paying for the training of their operations officers; they have given some of them FAA tickets or sent them to AVTECH and the likes for the want of a European standard. These people continue to work for the airline and minimal or no extra salary burden. The requirement for a European regulated FOO/Dispatcher accreditation is not going to open the salary floodgates and have every operations officer demanding 50K plus, many dispatchers in the States don't make anyway near that.

If you make a simple comparison between say, a nurse in the UK. Consider the years of training they go through and their salaries compared to ops officer in many UK airlines. Many of ops officer are paid similar or more without any qualifications in their field whatsoever. No, this is about the recognition that operations’ officers/flight dispatcher must be adequately training for their role as part of an airline operational safety system and that the requirement does exist, but it is without teeth (CAA take note) demonstrably I would argue, the UK CAA cannot leave this in the hands of the airlines, training for ops/dispatcher requires a standard syllabus, approved schools and a license/Accreditation.

[Epsilon minus]

I have abstracted myself from this thread because this subject always ends up in a bi-lateral discussion between myself and nosig. Today I am glad to see we have a wider audience.
Couple of points.
LL I empathise with your frustrations but castigating the SRG as "CAA are mainly Pilots and only care about Pilots" is not helpful. JAR-OPS has contributed to significant changes in attitude within the authority and auditing has evidenced the difference between operators with good operations support and those without. However old attitudes die hard and pilots still have to pick up the mess created by poorly trained ops staff. The work load burden on pilots that this creates is a threat to air safety, in my mind a serious one. The real blame for this is not pilots but senior management in the shape of Accountable Managers. Their complete ignorance of most matters JAR has lead them to take "cost effective" measures like the out sourcing of ops quote "all they do is send off computer flight plans, anyone can do that". The resulting mayhem that this policy caused resulted in this operators demise. Ask yourself how many AM's out there have had formal training? How many of them know JAR-OPS 1.175(h)?
NS and TBE. I am working on a scheme to provide training for G-OPS staff in accordance with the ICAO 7192 (D3) syllabus. I will bring this upto date though the basics need no change. I will attend a meeting soon to finalise the plans. As for applying pressure - try getting the co-operation of your flight ops management by getting pilots to stop supporting Ops - it must be the other way around.
I suggest that we (post holders) get together with all the FOI's and discuss our case. I think we will get sympathetic ears especially now that EU-OPS and EASA are involved. Please join me with your support. Get out there and start spreading the word - change is going to happen.
Rgds
EM

[no sig]

As ever EM, you're correct. And I agree, it is nice to see others involved in the debate.

As for operations management, it is true many don't understand the issue but if they were to think about it carefully, safety issues aside; it is just plain good business to ensure that the people you entrust to run the day to day operations of your airline are properly trained. I really fail to understand how that simple fact appears to have escaped many in our industry.

[Low life]

In reply to No Sig
You are quite correct I have to admit I am basing my views on the BALPA stance from the past, but please remember I am old, wrinkly and if I were to take a step back, years of dealing with one or two of BALPA’s finest have left me a little less fair minded than I possible could be.
The statement “It would erode the Capt. Responsibility”, was from a BA, BALPA rep, commenting on BALPA’s standpoint on the subject, admittedly from a few years ago
There are more companies sending people on courses for recognised qualifications and to this end the industry is starting to self regulate. These companies, who are investing in training, are by there nature likely to have Ops departments run by managers who see a bigger picture, have better set up ops and probably paying more to get in quality controllers in the first place.
An interesting analogy with nurses, my wife is a nurse, running a ward with 60 staff, making what I was as a senior controller; I believe there is a whole issue of social priorities behind that one.
E.P.
It is not only my belief, but also experience that supports your views towards the impact on flight safety, by an Operation department. I was fortunate enough to work in one of the best Ops teams of its time, where the impact of actions, on flight safety, was always a consideration. I also spent six, very unhappy, month in probably the worst Ops unit in the country, where quite the opposite was true.
I think you are absolutely right regarding accountable managers, but I would like to expand one of your points. Pilots do not only pick up Ops created mess, but as many times create their own expecting Ops to sort out, thus removing support from other areas.
I was not castigating the SRG, but merely relating my experience. I have never seen a full audit of Operational support only flight paperwork and those subjects relating to the 371. I would be prepared to bow to greater knowledge on this.
You mention JAR-Ops has changed the attitude within the authority, but surely this thread is regarding the lack of action within the authority to JAR-Ops.
Although I would never say I was an expert on the subject It is one I have followed closely for the last 25 years, in that quarter of a centurty there has been much rhetoric, but little action.

[no sig]

Just on the point of US FAA dispatcher's pay, as it came up in this thread.
You might be interested to know that one of the chaps I am working with at present who has 20 years dispatch experience in the US, just interviewed for a dispatcher position with United Airlines last month, they offered him the position at a starting salary of $32,000 per year (UK 16,000). The days of high dispatcher salaries in the US seem to be over.

[sandokan]

Hi Folks,

just to bring something up here.

In the forming stage of EASA at cologne (2003-2004), they did an airline survey to see if there was instant/future need to recognize or set up some rules and regulations for OPS Staff/FOO`s/Dispatcher.
They did that survey in a most unproffesional way.
The final conclusion of this survey showed up that most Airlines/Corp Buz Jet Companies disagreed that there is a need for EASA to regulate in this question.
Furthermore the list of companies which took part at this survey showed,that there were only 2 or 3 Major Airlines and many many smaller or very small charters or corp jet companies.
No one from the Big carriers like Air France,Swiss (at this time still at their own),Austrian,KLM,Scandinavian,Iberia,Lufthansa,Cargolux,Con dor,LTU,TUI Fly,Britannia (at this time also still on their own) or other.
EASA came to the final conclusion that no regulation for OPS personal is needed and they did not set up any goal to finish for us.......

I hope this stupid thinking will end someday and they can tell us something different.Safety is not only a Pilots thing......
Many of your Posts are so right.

Best regards