WHO DO ENGINEERS THINK THEY ARE?
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: london
WHO DO ENGINEERS THINK THEY ARE?
why is it that i have to address the captain or co pilot as "sir" where as some and engineers in particular call them either "mate" or by there first name?? surely if respect is due then its due by all and not just those seen by some as lower caste. i dont mind calling the captain "sir" but surely all should.
Pilots' Pal
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From: USA
Called pilots by many names but never, ever "sir" (unless they have been knighted!).
A few pilots suffer from the God complex and use the term "captain" as a title. The position exists only in their work environment; only those holding a Queen's commission (in the UK, at least) in the armed forces may use it as a title. I think Salvation Army captains may, too.
A few pilots suffer from the God complex and use the term "captain" as a title. The position exists only in their work environment; only those holding a Queen's commission (in the UK, at least) in the armed forces may use it as a title. I think Salvation Army captains may, too.
!
Thread Starter
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From: london
Originally Posted by ASFKAP
Out of interest, how do you address the Engineers when youre talking up to them?
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From: USA
Ace,
I'm afraid that that notion is occasionally reciprocated; I've known despatchers who seem to think they could dictate the terms of a departure with respect to engineering issues.
If I may point out- with the benefit of several decades of experience - the perceived attitude is often a mirror of your own. The title of your thread speaks volumes, as does your latest post.
Nobody in our industry should expect to be be called "sir" or "madam" (other than fare paying passengers); you should, however, afford each other respect.
I'm afraid that that notion is occasionally reciprocated; I've known despatchers who seem to think they could dictate the terms of a departure with respect to engineering issues.
If I may point out- with the benefit of several decades of experience - the perceived attitude is often a mirror of your own. The title of your thread speaks volumes, as does your latest post.
Nobody in our industry should expect to be be called "sir" or "madam" (other than fare paying passengers); you should, however, afford each other respect.
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: uk
Well said bus429, ace are you suppressing some other deap seated hatred for us engineer types and you have found this is the best way to channel it?I mean, seriously, aren't we all on the same team trying to get the a/c turned round and flying again in the most safe and efficient manner and sometimes it is the way that any formalities may have to be ditched due to the somewhat unpredictable nature of the business we all work in. I know that sometimes we could all deal with giving each other a bit more respect (and we would all like to be on the receiving end from time to time!).Out of interest is it your company's policy that you have to address the captain as sir?I cannot imagine in this day and age that would still be the case but maybe I work for a fun happy airline..........
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Berks, UK
As a current dispatcher and ex engineer, all the crew, ground staff, toilet cleaners, caterers and engineers in my company get called by their first name AFTER they have introduced themselves (common decency / good manners...), otherwise by job title.
When I am working for a third party airline I ALWAYS address the captain as Captain and the engineers as Eng. I am not always sure of the etiquette in foreign operators companies / countries so feel that is the only polite way to do business. I get called Dispatch. Simple
PS who do engineers think they are? Well, it took me three yrs to do my apprenticeship and it only takes pilots 18 mths to train, so really you better show me some respect kiddo...
When I am working for a third party airline I ALWAYS address the captain as Captain and the engineers as Eng. I am not always sure of the etiquette in foreign operators companies / countries so feel that is the only polite way to do business. I get called Dispatch. Simple
PS who do engineers think they are? Well, it took me three yrs to do my apprenticeship and it only takes pilots 18 mths to train, so really you better show me some respect kiddo...
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: North of CDG
I can't remember ever calling either a captain or FO "Sir" or "Madam", but I have told off a new dispatcher once for addressing all flight crew as "mate"...
As far as I am concerned, there is a minimum of respect required, which isn't evident in the term "mate".
Then again, I have noticed a few raised eyebrows on the part of PAX when I address the CPT or FO (or both) by their first name(s). I am on a first-name basis with just about every based crew (after all, they see my name on the loadsheet too). Those whose name I don't know (usually "visiting" crew), I just address without adding any title.
Simple really!
Cheers
P.S.: I have never witnessed a company or contract engineer address a CPT as "mate" either...
As far as I am concerned, there is a minimum of respect required, which isn't evident in the term "mate".
Then again, I have noticed a few raised eyebrows on the part of PAX when I address the CPT or FO (or both) by their first name(s). I am on a first-name basis with just about every based crew (after all, they see my name on the loadsheet too). Those whose name I don't know (usually "visiting" crew), I just address without adding any title.
Simple really!
Cheers
P.S.: I have never witnessed a company or contract engineer address a CPT as "mate" either...
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: England
There's some interesting psychological issues in this thread for example the mis-guided notion that - If I address you as Sir I am signalling that I am inferior to you. The real problem here is one of perception of ones demeanor and status, the lower the self esteem the greater the need to shore it up with objections to correct forms of address.
What's the problem with polite address? It doesn't bother the Americans who will even refer to their fathers as Sir.
Get a life be polite address a Captain as Sir or Captain and earn yourself reciprocal respect.
For more information on correct forms of address consult:
1) the Home Office http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...%20ADDRESS.pdf
2) Debretts
What's the problem with polite address? It doesn't bother the Americans who will even refer to their fathers as Sir.
Get a life be polite address a Captain as Sir or Captain and earn yourself reciprocal respect.
For more information on correct forms of address consult:
1) the Home Office http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...%20ADDRESS.pdf
2) Debretts
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: UK
Having worked as a Dispatcher and now working as a pilot i have seen engineers from both sides of the fence!
As a Dispatcher the engineers were nothing more than an annoyance! I found them rude and ignorant.....Especially those who work for a Charter outfit up in Manchester!
As a pilot i see them as helpful, and pretty intelligent individuals who are there to make sure todays aeroplane is likely to cause as few a problems as possible....I have a tech question so i ask them...SIMPLE!
As a Dispatcher the engineers were nothing more than an annoyance! I found them rude and ignorant.....Especially those who work for a Charter outfit up in Manchester!
As a pilot i see them as helpful, and pretty intelligent individuals who are there to make sure todays aeroplane is likely to cause as few a problems as possible....I have a tech question so i ask them...SIMPLE!
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: very west
Ace,
I have just read your post and was a bit bemused. Your comment reminded me, as with most parents I am sure, of our offspring when very young, and with sulking pouted lips asking
'why do I have to address them as Sir and no one else does?'
And like most parents I said
'when you grow up, you can'.
The other reason could be 'pecking order', more defference being required from those closer to the bottom of the pond.
Not trying to be offensive here, only commenting on observations.
I have just read your post and was a bit bemused. Your comment reminded me, as with most parents I am sure, of our offspring when very young, and with sulking pouted lips asking
'why do I have to address them as Sir and no one else does?'
And like most parents I said
'when you grow up, you can'.
The other reason could be 'pecking order', more defference being required from those closer to the bottom of the pond.
Not trying to be offensive here, only commenting on observations.
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From: UK
Gents,
This is a worthwhile discussion, but please try and keep it adult. If not, I may exercise the "thread-ban this user" option.
Adding a comment from myself about the discussion. If we don't all remember that we're on the same team, eventually somebody'll get hurt!
Genghis
Admin.
This is a worthwhile discussion, but please try and keep it adult. If not, I may exercise the "thread-ban this user" option.
Adding a comment from myself about the discussion. If we don't all remember that we're on the same team, eventually somebody'll get hurt!
Genghis
Admin.
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From: In my own little world
I address the flight deck crew as "chaps" and the Engineers as "mate" (unless I know their names, in which case I use it) when I'm busy and in a rush, otherwise I introduce myself then use their name and they use mine.
I never call a Captain "Sir" anymore - used to do when I was a newbie and thought you had to. If it was in the RAF, then I would, but some of their heads/ego's are big enough anyway !!.
The one pet peeve that I have with some f/deck crew is the way they speak to people. I don't understand why they feel they have to behave that way. No amount of stripes on anyones shoulder gives them the right to speak down to people or be patronising and condecending.
I never call a Captain "Sir" anymore - used to do when I was a newbie and thought you had to. If it was in the RAF, then I would, but some of their heads/ego's are big enough anyway !!.
The one pet peeve that I have with some f/deck crew is the way they speak to people. I don't understand why they feel they have to behave that way. No amount of stripes on anyones shoulder gives them the right to speak down to people or be patronising and condecending.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 553
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From: UK
Originally Posted by Epsilon minus
There's some interesting psychological issues in this thread for example the mis-guided notion that - If I address you as Sir I am signalling that I am inferior to you. The real problem here is one of perception of ones demeanor and status, the lower the self esteem the greater the need to shore it up with objections to correct forms of address.
What's the problem with polite address? It doesn't bother the Americans who will even refer to their fathers as Sir.
Get a life be polite address a Captain as Sir or Captain and earn yourself reciprocal respect.
For more information on correct forms of address consult:
1) the Home Office http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...%20ADDRESS.pdf
2) Debretts
What's the problem with polite address? It doesn't bother the Americans who will even refer to their fathers as Sir.
Get a life be polite address a Captain as Sir or Captain and earn yourself reciprocal respect.
For more information on correct forms of address consult:
1) the Home Office http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind...%20ADDRESS.pdf
2) Debretts
The most odious people with which I have worked always seemed the most status/rank obsessed.
Last edited by woptb; 28th April 2006 at 18:45.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 367
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From: England
woptb
No not the reverse; exactly the same. Those with low self esteem and presence will use their rank to promote what they lack. It still doesn't alter the issue. Whether they are worthy or not they are still entitled and being polite empowers the strong and demeans the weak.
No not the reverse; exactly the same. Those with low self esteem and presence will use their rank to promote what they lack. It still doesn't alter the issue. Whether they are worthy or not they are still entitled and being polite empowers the strong and demeans the weak.
