Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Shortage
 

Attn: Engineers, Techs, Mechs & Accountable/Maintenance
Managers in the MRO industry

Is it just me or is the shortage of LAE's getting worse?
I've had 5 phone calls in the past few days from different
agencies asking for my availability to work elsewhere
with starting dates for next week...

I haven't got any cover on the most desireable types
ie: B737NG/A320/B777 but a couple of agencies did
stipulate that an ICAO basic AML + TR & Experience
are now being accepted in lieu of EASA Part 66 with
certain Middle Eastern/Far Eastern MROs.

Can anyone comment?

BAe146???:{:{:{

It would appear that one UK agency is resorting to recruiting in Hungary for positions in the UK - see link below...

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/emp...82&vacID=77019

This is despite the Hungarian CAA still not being on the list of EASA NAAs
that mutually accept eachother's Part 66 AMLs - see link below...

http://www.easa.eu.int/doc/QS/AMO%20...icences-v2.pdf

I know a few LAEs that really are benefitting financially out there
due to these shortages (good for them) but is this not a symptom of absolutely crap planning & organisation with negative long term effects?

BAe146????? :{:{

The number of licensed engineers heading towards retirement is escalating.
Years ago a friend described our operation as being


"an old folks home with helicopters"

Well I've now become one of the old folks and what is scary is that there are no young engineers to make similar rude comments.

I estimate the average age where I work to be over 50.

Shortages
 

S'funny, but as the likes of British Airways, (an industry driver), attempts to obliterate the LAE at every opportunity, they drive away guys in position or those that want to start. All to drive down their own costs. The new religion is the worship of money, profit and budgets. Now and not tomorrow. Greed.

The ultimate result of this pseudo religion is people working for peanuts like in the good ol' USA. I've heard guys and girls there often have second jobs to keep their heads above water financially.

The job IMHO just isn't worth the hassle anymore of debilitating, life shortening shifts, with huge resonsibilities. Mostly played down by managers until something awful happens. Self studying whilst on crap shifts. Far better to get an MBA and short cut into a desk. One can then sit there bemoaning the fact that there aren't enough maintenance engineers and screw those that are left under the guise of 'Change'.

There is no way on this Gods earth that I would allow any of my offspring into an aviation engineering job.:ok:

A lot of it has to do with the change over the the EASA licence....... I know of at least 5 people that have simply walked away from the job as they are fed up of being served cr*p for poor wages, and that is from an area about 100 meters square........... so times that by a country and you can understand the shortage...........

One of the basic reasons I was given was "I have trained for X years to get this licence, I have worked on xyz for 20 years plus and now they say my licence coverage is not sufficent to carry on doing the same job without spending a fortune on additional training".......... walk away time....... and they do in droves..

That and the aging population problem...... perhaps it will drive wages up to a realistic figure............. myself? well It would not be a lie when I say I am looking round too, and out of this country as the Labour Party has screwed that up right and proper......

Its not just in the UK!!!

The low wages and *&^%$ conditions are being felt arround the world!!

TOJP

A Local Example
 

The demand for certifying as well as non-certifying
staff in Exeter has always been there, even more so now
since we acquired another airline.. In short, not very many
Engineers or Pilots chose to stay with the company, due in
part to the low renumeration / relocation amongst other things.

End result - remaining LAE's typically cover 2-4 A/C
on base maintenance and regularly get sent to
the thinly manned line stations to cover Check A's or
AOG/Snags.

The company Part 145 Approvals are :.
under threat.

In addition, the latest batch of Bristol / AST people are
not that technically impressive (at least the ones I work with).
They have learnt the minimum to scrape the exams/essays -
this is not enough to keep A/C airworthy - it becomes painfully
obvious when troubleshooting. Easy to xfer to ADD though?

In closing, the UK pool of trained, experienced, actually capable
Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (Licensed/Unlicensed) is getting shallower
by the week - the UKCAA refuses to intervene in 'personnel issues' &
the international example that used to be BA seems to be screwing
over the few remaining good engineers with the AMS scheme.

The sad thing is, I'm not expecting any change soon.

BAe146?? And hands-off industry leaders?? :{:{:{

Ok, not sorry for starting the thread, I'm sorry for hijacking...

As well as the shortage of LAE's, are there a lot of vacancies
requesting full B1/B2 cover on specific aircraft types or what?

We're all aware of how certain JAA/EASA NAA's awarded their
'approved personnel' JAR/EASA Pt 66 AMLs - some full B1 including
full B2. Maybe these personnel from these NAA's are now unfairly
prefered (Actual trade capabilities aside for a moment) because
of those actions, who knows?

Apart from some very talented and capable individuals out there
that have truly earnt and can identify themselves as full B1/B2, is there now not a pressure placed upon the rest of us to obtain further qualification simply to remain equivalent?

It is an acheivement none the less to academically earn B1/B2
status but experience would suggest that for example, all a B2 would
have to do to earn B1 practical experience would be too 'look over the shoulder of a B1 carrying out a B1 task' and collect the specific AMM reference. This is the equivalent of what occurs today for a B1 to obtain the 'avionic/electrical practical' element to qualify for basic B1 AML issue.
Essential practical skillsets are not being transferred correctly OR even proven.

For any manager totally unaware of actual events at shop floor level,
all this takes place today. Directly or indirectly you appear to endorse it.
Either way, the high standards of aircraft maintenance are being eroded.
Especially here in the UK, once percieved as the best.

How can any industry attract the right talent when it appears to
not address in full the concerns of those presently working harder
then ever within it?

Bae146??? :{:{:{

I don't think so. A major problem with the EASA licence is its lack of portability. In having a "deeply meaningful and constructive discussion" with our local (UKCAA seconded) Regional Manager / Surveyor, he won't accept any licence - including EASA Part 66 Licences - for conversion except UK or Germany issued Part 66 B1/B2s. Rightly so in my opinion.

So we can't recruit anyone other than Brits or Germans to fill positions within our EASA Part 145 Approved Maintenance Organization. We are developing locals, but not fast enopugh to meet maintenance demand. So we are missing out on ripe business opportunities. Hang on in there chaps, LAES will eventually be in a similar position as pilotsin demanding and getting suitable salaries.

Blacksheep

That same UKCAA seconded regional manager/Surveyor perhaps
won't mind commenting on conversions already carried out by
the SRG of 20+ British Airways Engineering Line Station staff
that previously held FAR Part 65 A&P holders with BA issued
approvals to restricted B1.1's then??

The fact that when other EASA NAA's where approached to
convert the staff involved, they were only offered Cat A.1's.
Did BA deem this as insufficient?

Perhaps an insight will explain why the ALAE(1981) are currently
pursuing a sample de-identified 'conversion report' under the
Freedom of Information Act, just to see the actual mechanics
of the converson process, identify what is acceptable and what is unacceptable.

http://www.alae.org.uk/site1/view_content.php?page=96

There has to be some great reason for the the new and elaborate construction of the UKCAA ELGD 2007 Section B
which has not made anything more transparent or importantly,
level. BA needed Line Station 'Approved Staff' foreign nationals
to be converted to Part 66 B1.1 before September 2006. If they
qualified somehow suddenly late last year, why they were not
converted before?? (Circa 2001) It remains a mystery.

Strings were pulled, AMLs issued. The UKCAA have proven they are
no different to any other NAA that will interpret regulations to what
suits for the right $$$$ As Ned says, its all about $$$$ really.


BAe146??:{:{

146,

With regard to the shortage, your lot in Exeter had a shortage when I was contracting there 15 years ago and had a habit of paying less than agricultural wages. Nothing has obviously been learned since then if your problem still persists.

The problem is not going to go away but it is also not helped by the industry not helping people to get on the ladder by offering work experience places, how many peole have been to collegue and have ended up walking away after 2 or 3 years because they can't get a placement?

Quichemech

Totally in agreement - You were there 15 years ago?
We've grown quite a bit in that time, more a/c, bigger facility etc..
Decide for yourself and see what incentive there is now...

http://www.nextgenerationairline.com...structure2.pdf

The turnover of staff I have witnessed at this facility in the time
I have been employed there beggars belief. There is nil focus on staff retention. Concerns have been raised with the UKCAA, concerns have been monitored (seemingly ignored) by the UKCAA.

As far as retaining the training staff, a key B2 instuctor handed his
notice in a few days ago. We effectively have no full time avionic instructors now.

This is not indicative of a healthy UKCAA/EASA Part 145 Maintenance Facility.

Bae146??? :{:{:{

sir pratt
 

ave age at your work shows good experience, young guys have and always will move around for their o.e. and are not tied down with kids etc not because the $$ is not enough. I would however like to know how profitable an airline can remain when paying rcm's 35 quid an hour, what are the licenced guys on?

Very interesting debate. Having just finished my academic B1 training i am finding it very difficult to get a job now, like it has already been mentioned They are only advertising for full B1 and B2 engineers with type ratings and experience. How is it possible to get this experience if no one is willing to give u a chance?

Fao BA146 i agree wth the standard of students the college is sending out is generally very poor, I believe i have the level of technical knowledge i need to be a trainee B1 engineer. However if i hadnt have had the background in aircraft maintance ( my experience is very limited though) i would be reluctant to take anybody on as the college has taught us just to pass exams.

You tried Exeter? they are always advertising........... also try looking on

the likes of

http://www.matchtech.com/job/134143/

the experience might screw you though

or

http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/

Interesting Thread,

I left the industry last year I was engineer over twenty years experience with multiple ratings. The lack of respect for such a highly skilled job which requires five times the cognition of our pilot brothers for a quarter of the salary, was another factor. I am still kind of involved as I am a loss adjuster in London, but to quite honest happy to be out.

I hope that one day it will change for the sake of so many good guys still in the industry who produce amazing results against all the odds (i.e poor management, less than worthy pilots, and excessive working hours due to the overall shortage in the first place!).

:ugh:

Guess I might as well ask here... as I have been looking at becoming an avionics technician.

It looks like some of the pay rates here in NZ are ridiculous. One company has offered me a job, paying the same rate as when I graduated with a certificate in electronics 9 years ago. Another company is offering the same rate as I was on 3 years ago. This is $7000 and a company car short of what I can make comissioning comercial air conditioning systems.

Is there really a shortage of technicians or are the companies just dreaming when it comes to pay rates? What is a realistic pay rate I can expect to get both starting out in electronics and once certified?

it is just as f#cked down in Australia,last year was made redundant at Qantas Heavy Maint in Sydney on the 747 line with 450 other engineers,went looking for work within the industry and the best offer i was given was $40,000 pa and thats with 20 years industry experience,left the game and now i earn twice as much working in retail.I WILL NEVER RETURN TO THE INDUSTRY AGAIN,NOT UNLESS THEY START TO OFFER STARTING WAGES OF 1OOK,AND I DON'T THINK THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN,oh yeah and i now have a social life,life is great.

Leaving the industry
 

Buddy I am teetering on the edge of this right now.
30 years experience avionics with cover on several types
Retail is one of the options! But I've got my eye on a nice little broom. All I need is a village somewhere to sweep.

Another Angle
 

I know this is not exactly on the theme of this thread but as a mere pilot I dunno much about the practicalities of the engineering world. You mention Licensed engineers but aren't you all going to come under the new EASA thing and see licenses vanish?

I would be interested to know how licensing changes under EASA, someone told me that the employer issues them thereafter!? Tell me this isn't true!?

On the introduction of EASA, licenced engineers under BCAR Section L could convert there licence to a restricted Catagory B Part-66 licence. Guys and gals with limited company Authorisation were entitled to the A-licence, this was all under 'privileged rights'.
The interpretation of the rights by some companies/operators was open to question, enabling with some manipulation the conversion of only a company authorisation to a full catagory 'B' licence!
A major operator, forementioned, has recently proposed to EASA too scrap the licence and have only company authorised staff with the priviledges of a 'B' licence holder! Luckily this was thrown out but shows a total disregard to our proffesional status by senior management. :=

EASA etc
 

Thanks Beeline,

I'm not up to speed on the Engineering licensing system so I'm not sure what A or B actually means but you seem to be saying companies will not be dishing out licenses after all?

So, who will under EASA then? Will the CAA continue to as is?

Under current legislation the CAA issues an Aircraft Maintenence Licence if the requirements of EC regulation 2042/2003 annex III Part-66 have been met. The criterion is that sufficent theoretical and practical experience have been acheived over a period of x years; this includes exams, essays and log book experience. Up until the 28/09/06 a CAA Section L licence under the BCAR system could be converted to a part-66 licence.

Within the BCAR system different catagories entitled the holder to issue CRSs of which he held on his/her licence; for example a mechanical licence would consist of A-airframes and C-engines, an avionic licence would include X-Electrical, X-Autopilot, Instruments, radio/radar etc.
The current EASA system brings all these seperate certifying catagories under one licence e.g A&C = B1, Avionics = B2, The official title is Line Maintenance mechanical/avionic Technician.

The A-licence is a new catagory for Line maintenance Mechanics, this was just a company authorisation in the old system. It entitles the holder a Limited authorisation of 21 ramp items that he/she may certify.

The licence in any catagory is a basic licence and thus a prerequesite. Further type training must be endorsed on the licence, the level the training is pitched at depends on the catagory held e.g B1/B2 full maintainence course level 3 (approx 12 weeks), A-licence ramp course level 1-2(approx 3 weeks).

Hope that clarifies the muddy minefield that is european legislation!! :ugh:

The categories within the aircraft maintenance licence are:
Category A Maintenance Certifying Mechanic
Category B1 Maintenance Certifying Technician (Mechanical)
Category B2 Maintenance Certifying Technician (Avionic)
Category C Base Maintenance Certifying Engineer
Category A is further divided into sub categories as follows:
A1 Aeroplanes Turbine
A2 Aeroplanes Piston
A3 Helicopters Turbine
A4 Helicopters Piston
The sub categories for Category B Line Maintenance Certifying Technician/Base Maintenance Technician are:
B1.1 Aeroplanes Turbine
B1.2 Aeroplanes Piston
B1.3 Helicopters Turbine
B1.4 Helicopters Piston
B2 Avionics (no further sub division).

Smudge Cat ... our wages were never reduced ... THEY JUST NEVER WENT UP!!!!

I havent thought about this much, but there are 5 sides to an aircraft operation, with many fixed costs ... BUT, one of the costs that can be debated between owner/operator to reduce overall business costs is MAINTENANCE. All other airport charges, fuel, airways charges, registrations, building leases, etc are all fixed. Wages & Maintenance are all variable, so to keep variable costs down, they will ultimately argue with maintenance - thus Chief Engineer feels the squeeze, and hires engineers for less pay, so the business can still make a profit. ... The pilots wages aren't reduced due to they need the most experienced pilots they can get to not give their company operation a bad name. Pilots are a necessity - Engineers are a burden.

Anyway, thats one little theory that has stuck in my head, but unless people have a better one, would love to hear it ....

Cheers, KP

There is a massive downfall in the industry nowadays in that no one is doing apprenticships, you can just go to college pass all the exames obtain the relevent experience (which is nothing to the level of an apprenticship). These lads out of college just need their sheets signed to get their B1's or B2's.
I had to graft for four years, before being given the tilte of mech/fitter. Then and only when you had the relevent experience you could apply for your airframe or engine or electrics or radar or radio etc etc.
No disrespect to those from this new system( I'm sure it's a hard couple of years) but it's because of this that the wages will fall in the future.
Too many are there just waiting for the experience without any idea of whats in store for them.No idea that a 757 PRSOV change can make grown men cry, that nappies really do get stuck in toilet dumpvalves or even worse (Vacuum toilet's)
Experience should have to gained before you do exames, this will not only eliminate the boys but will again improve the standard of engineers/technicians.
Oral exames should come back as our NAA's have no idea who they are giving all that reponsibility too.

Well said Mr Brown, agree with all your points.

I had 26 years in the industry before I passed my Section L A & C.
Passed both the orals & the only thing that stopped me doing mods 20 & 21 was the thought of an electrical oral.
I now have full B1 on my current types - that means I am an electrician!
No way would I have passed an electrical oral when I got the restrictions lifted.
The standards have been lowered.
Maybe this is warranted by the more modern types,but there are still a lot of the old ones out there.

There Is Not A Lack Of Engineers
 

Hi Guys.

I am sick and fed up the industry moaning about not having Engineers.

I have just converted my licence from BCAR Sec L to Part 66.

I came out of the industry but still work Part Time Contracting. Aviation is in my blood and miss being around aircraft every day all day and love the job.

However, I earn 2 x the amount I can in aviation in my alternative trade.

I have an Unrestricted B2 restricted B1 & C with some 20 types with 20years experience. None of them are wide bodies.

What makes me mad is despite the above, companies are still asking for experience & a type rating on the wide bodies and refuse to offer training. Tossed a side like some used carboard Oil Filler funnel!

so Companies, we are here, You have pleanty of Engineers, but you have to Train us on Type & renumerate us well.

WHEN WILL YOU GET THE MESSAGE ??
There is not a lack of Engineers.
Just a lack of Engineers willing to work for peanuts and get treated like dirt!

We have united and voted with our feet and I am afraid the Industry gets what it has deserved for a long time

I too have, since converting Passed my electrical modules and now have B1 electrics on my types ( but I'm no electrician) and there is no way I would have passed an oral.
Bring back the oral and seperate the Licence again so you can do one at a time.

The standards were lowered when EASA was formed, period.....
They had to set a standard for all Countries to attain, and I firmly believe they used probably the least regulated Country as the benchmark...... that was possibly somewhere like Greece...... And NO, I do not have anything against Greece or their engineering standards.

But I sat there amending page after page of MAMIS and the CAA Additional AD's by simply removing all the 737, 747 etc pages and dumpng them in the Bin...... I couldn't help thinking at the time, a lot of work and indeed a lot of money has gone into these and they were not issued purely for toilet paper...(ok some were) they were issued for flight safety issues and the fact I am now binning them is indicitive of a sudden and massive drop in the UK's Flight Safety standards.......

Nothing since has changed my mind...... topped of with the total lack of cohesion on licencing leaves people struggling to know what they can and cannot do and where to go, whilst the pile of toilet paper produced from Europe steadily increases at the cost of safety......

I did carefully remove the MAMIS sheets for Concorde when it finally went and kept them as a reminder of what we lost :)

Theavionicsbloke:
Good points there.
What other trade is it where you're making 2 x your aviation salary?
You have my full attention!
Regards,
Another avionics bloke.

Don't be so sure about how much work went into those additional directives.

I worked for a UK distributor and every now and again the local CAA surveyer turned up with the latest pile of red edged bulletins and asked if any should receive AD status.

On the down side this was to the distributors benefit and not to the owners as they were forced to have the work done.

On the up side who actually knew more about the aircraft?

What was galling was when the bulletin was incorporated into the maintenance manual yet the AD remained in the additionals for no reason.

It all seems to depend on who you apply too.

My last employer put me through 3 full airframe and engine type courses plus 2 avionics and electrical courses. Boroscope, engine running, airstair, RVSM, human factors, recurrent etc.

I estimate about 35 weeks training spread over 8 years with most of it in the first 3 years.

There are some companies that take training seriously.

i had 20 yrs industry experience with a 744 license,last year me and 450 work mates where shown the door at Qantas HM syd,looked for for a short while,within the industry,but when i was getting offers of 40 to 45k PA,i figured it was time to leave the game,i am now earning at least double my LAME PAY IN RETAIL,and i also have a social life,i don't think i will ever return to the industry.

1. Take your B777 to an MRO or two and start negotiating for routine maintenance and you're talking labour rates of US50 to US70 an hour. Throw in major repairs and it goes up to US120.

2. Take your BMW or Mercedes Benz to the local workshop and they're asking US90 an hour for a Service. Take it in for major damage repairs and labour rates aren't even on the table.

Labour rates don't translate directly into wages paid, but the fact is garage mechanics have been more in demend than aeroplane maintenance technicians and the relative wages reflected that. Many years ago I was on a B747 electrical course with an instrument supervisor who wasn't doing the course to get more qualifications and higher pay, he was doing it just to be able to retain his supervisor status and continue in the same job. He left before the end of the course to join Plessey - maintaining traffic lights along Western Avenue. No licences needed and with higher pay and better working hours.

Not much has changed in the intervening thirty years, but I believe that things may finally be about to change. Some of the European airlines calling us for slots aren't doing it because we're cheaper (which we are), its because the slots simply aren't available in Europe.

Blacksheep,
You state prices as $ per Hour - it should be $ per Man-hour

BMW/Merc Maint uses 1-2 persons per day. 8-16 man-hours

B777 heavy Maint uses 20-30 persons per day, go figure.

Maintenance is not cheap, but wages for base maint generally are.

Shortage of Mechs?
 

Let's see-pilot walks away at the end of flight and tells you how much resposibility he has. We work on an aircraft system and have responsibility for that work until inspected or worked on again, and that could easily be over a year. We get approx 1/8 of the pay (considering
$per/hour, and time worked per year). Then we put up with the shifts,
the lack of facilities in all kinds of weather, incompetent supervision, and
companies that can't make a profit because costs are too high, so they send the jobs overseas (incompetent management). If the average person can't pay their bills- who do they expect to travel by air??? Besides -the average starting mechanic doesn't make enough to buy the tools they need!!
And now you wonder why their aren't enough skilled people?
It's no longer a career- it's just another job!!

Engineers
 

Engineers are being Recruited from Eastern Europe.

At first look these guys are all well qualified (B1 / B2) and they are also well experienced.

The system is letting the UK guys down, but with expansion of EASA there is a bigger pool if you know where to look!!

:ok:

Yes. I do contracts and we tend to get slack in our language - in our world it is taken as given that all labour rates are in man-hours. They are fully stated in black and white in the paperwork.

The question is why do you think that premium car companies have higher labour rates than aircraft MROs? Because their customers are able and willing to cough up rather than go without their precious Beemer for a few days, that's why. While I recognise the equivalent skill levels of the car mechanics, they do not carry the same responsibility levels as LAEs and its very discouraging to work in the current situation. Because airlines' customers now expect to fly halfway round the world for the price of a night out on the piss, the airlines don't have the cash to pay for maintenance. On the other hand, the regulations oblige them to have it done. So, they bargain maintenance rates down as low as they can go.

What is happening now is that MROs are running out of hangar slots and, with their customers having to outbid each other to get work done, are becoming able to resist the downward pressure on labour rates. Eventually MROs will also be in a position to outbid each other in their search for labour. The airlines will pass the increased cost on to passengers and the Shell Suit army will have to pay the proper fare for their journeys - even on LCCs. It won't happen overnight, and most of we old timers will be on our pensions before things really take off, but change is definitely on the way.