Blacksheep
 

Hopefully, spot on.

Blacksheep...


On the button, and I've just done a paper saying much the same in 1500 words of elegant prose, statistics, factors, conclusions etc.

Short, pithy, accurate statements like your last para can do a lot of damage to us BS merchants.

By the way, care is needed with assumptions about LCC fares and their passengers; there's a large Irish outfit that gets quite high average yields; the magic is worked by add-on charges but mainly because a small number of seats are sold at very high prices indeed, especially where competition is not strong, and a larger number at a fairly high price. There was a time a year or two back when on some routes they had a higher average yield than BA. Recently its average fare (ie excl taxes etc) was 49 Euros.

Flybe, which tries to be an LCC while looking more upmarket, will hit you for £280 (inc add-on charges) to get from EXT to JER and back, if you want to go at fairly short notice. Low fares are very few on that route. But then no-one else flies it.

L.A.M.E laments...
 

Hmm........doesn't sound good. I left LAME work in 1978 & have no regrets about it. Did a few things in between including retail. (still doing it).

At least you get to make your own decisions about working hours etc & you are home AT NIGHT & weekends. The social, family & health costs you pay are never compensated for by any allowance you might be lucky to receive.

$40,000 PA ? ........for some positions. Seem to remember reading somewhere in here of salaries a lot higher than that. As was said previously, once the pool of experience retires, resigns for greener pastures etc, supply & demand will dictate future salaries in this game.

I agree. This problem is present on both sides of the pond, and is only going to get worse.
Often the starting pay is too low to attract potential new students to our trade, especially in the U.S.
Licensing is also posing a problem for some of us in recent years. I'm an experienced helicopter mech from the states, and currently working in the Mid-East, but I'm excluded from most jobs in Europe because I'm only A&P certified. I considered getting an EASA rating but it doesn't seem realistic to take all those tests and basically start over at this stage of my career. I wish things were different because I'd love to work in Europe.
These situations such as my licensing scenario add to the workforce problem. If U.S. licenses were accepted in Europe, and EASA license easily accepted in the U.S., I believe the industry workforce would be much more fluid, and would help alleviate some of this problem.

Hmmmm

Very interesting reading this thread..... I am currently in the RAF, and having had about 9 years of experience I am looking at doing my B1 licence, as I have done airframe and propulsion training throughout my career. I know it's a decision that is hard to call, but I keep wondering if it is actually worth my while going to all the trouble and expense of gettting EASA / JAR 66 / B1 Qualified, or just go and do a domestic/ industrial elecrics course or plumbing etc? :ugh:

It grinds me that If I choose to go into a non aviation job then I have effectevly wasted 9 years of experience, but looking and talking to LAE's the picture they paint is pretty grim :(, everyone says contracting is the way to go but it offers little in the way of job security and benefits..

I would love to stay within the aviation industry as aircraft have been a major interest in my life, but everything is pointing in the direction of getting a decent trade in the construction/ property service industry and taking the £££ which seem to be a lot higher for a relativly unskilled job compared to the enormous amounts of training you have to go through to be let near an aircraft :confused:

What do you guys recon? Is it a worthwhile investment me going for B1 if I want to stay in the uk, preferably the Midlands area?

Personally I would spend the time/effort/money etc on learning a new trade like plumbing/plastering etc Yes I know everyone thinks its easy money, but it still needs several years of experience to be good, however the up side is the better work conditions and pay. A relation of mine was a nurse (male!) and took up plastering. Basically learn t on the job, now works for himself and earns just under £3k per month. Agreed no sick pay, holiday pay etc, but only works mon-fri, about 8 hour day, in the local area only...but as he is good he gets plenty of referrals etc..wish I was a bit younger and I would go the same way. (5 years to retirement not worth it now)

Oz LAME pay rates
 

In the Kimberley area of WA the going rate for a dual licenced GA LAME is around AUD100K pa plus plus. Harsh environment and not many takers.

Ah yes, one of my Ozmates told me about the "Kimberley Cool Test" - spit on the tin and if it doesn't sizzle its cool enough for drinking.

K-ENGINEER 130
If you can get anything done towards B1 on resettlement do it, when you come out you shouldnt have any problem getting work as a non certifying technician, 9 years experience means you should be be able to find your way around an aeroplane , be it a cessna 150 or a Boeing 747 ! It'll take you a couple of years work to get the relevant experience/worksheets to complete your licences, but theres plenty of work. We have been hiring guys from college because there dont seem to be the people around, and they have minimal experience, but all the bits of paper !!! which isnt a lot of use , you cant buy experience !!

>We have been hiring guys from college because there dont seem to be the people around, and they have minimal experience, but all the bits of paper !!! which isnt a lot of use , you cant buy experience !!



Who are these companies that are hiring college students?????? Have tried all of them a million times and no one will look at me twice because I havent got enough experience!!!!

I think it is a 'massive' generalisation to assume that all ab-inito student's are somewhat incapable. I myself an ex-newcastle student have contracted for 2 years post work experience without any complaints.. I have not yet applied for my license because I feel that more experience, i.e. troubleshooting is required, although in theory I could apply.

I do think that it is the fault of the 'old school' engineer, of whom many are very nice people, but appear to be threatened and annoyed by us hard working ex-students. I have worked with many mechanics, with plus 10 years experience and feel that they know very little in comparison (mainly the ones that whinge), although the very good mechanics are nothing but helpful...

Ok.... intially some students are slow learners in the practical world, but the quicker the experienced guys help us out and not just sneer at the very word BRISTOL, the quicker people like me will learn and go on to obtain the B1 with the required experience.

Finally for the record, 2 years exams/practical followed by 2-3years hands on experience gives an average of 4.5 years apprenticeship. Also this is followed by a type-rating, typically requiring a further 6 month's experience.

Please for the sake of the industry help us out 'where required' and not just assume that we are all the same. The alternative is that the shortage continues and our small industry is shipped off to places like Estonia and maybe even Poland. Think hard...

Interesting thread.

I read about the ex- QANTAS guy only being offered 40,000? Odd when I left Ansett in 2000 I walked straight into a 52,000 job in QLD, mind you I moved from Victoria to get it and my wage has only ever gone up since with plenty of work to choose from, and I only have 15 years experience.

I dont ever plan to leave the industry, there is now too much money to be made with plenty of work out there if you really want it.

I know the maintenance industry cannot keep up to the pace of the likes of LCC and other airline growth. What is it approx. 100 a/c manufactured each month by the big guys Boeing,airbus,embraer,bombardier.
How many companies worldwide have increased their maintenance facilities?:confused:
How many have increased training both to Licensed guys and apprentices?
All you see around the world is new pilot cadet programs, and accelerated pilot this and that!:confused:
Not to knock the guys (pilots) but you can train a pilot in 6 weeks not hard, how long does it take to train an engineer to be of good use?
You can get accelerated training and sorts but how long does it take to get to be comfortable on type.
When will aviation companies world wide stop treating us engineers as monkeys?:ugh:
Every year all I seem to hear is maintenacne is costing too much its taking too long to get an a/c back online no one thinks that maybe even the parts suppliers can't keep up to the pace.
and finally why is a pilot aprofessional and an engineer a grease monkey?:oh:

Ok.....

''What really pisses us engineers off is the fact that you students want everything all at once. The licence, the type ratings and the £40k plus salaries, you want it all now. Only a fool would put somebody like you in a certifying position, you’d be way out of your depth and the consequences of your mistakes could be dire''

Only a fool would make such a statement based on what, a few students you have worked with ?? what you are saying is wrong and un-fair. Clearly you have a negative attitude towards ex-students,

How many EX students have you exactly worked with?

You have also failed to understand the meaning of my original post, which was not one of boast, but plead...

I have worked with many engineers, of whom I have respected and shown nothing but humbleness.

Although I agree that two years is not enough, I will say that the apprenticeship schemes are no more advanced than the ab-inito courses. Take into account that we had to file and then file and then bend, drill, ream and then tap, then rivet etc....
whilst taking difficult exams, which in itself shows the ability to read interpret information and act on it (something vital to an engineer).

Also as for not being able to carry out defect repairs or structural repairs, I have carried out many repairs (structural repairs) without complaints, sometimes praise.

As for telling a mechanic with 10yrs experience that he/she is crap would not be the wisest of movement by any means. But the point is, some are... some are clearly not. My point is that time vs experience is not always true, its about knowledge backed up with experience, not just 'experience' which can sometimes have the reverse effect leading to complacency, maybe a few 'dire' consequences.

You have certainly validated my point with your response and hopefully other readers may give their input.

'RANT' over

what makes you think we want everything all at once? what a pathetic statement! do you not think being skint for 3 years working our way through college means we want everything at once? just because its taken you years to get the knowlege and experiance you needed to be looked at twice by a company doesn't mean your any more competent than a guy who has just left college.

i happen to have been very good at the practical side of my college work, me and a friend had taken a 40 year old plane fit for the scrap heap and rebuilt the whole hudraulic system and made it fully functional within a week. we had no manuals only common sense and knowlege we had built up in our modules.

i am not after my licence tomorow, just the chance to get the practical knowlege and experiance i need to apply for it.

smudgethecat....

Real apprenticeship training??? Again another 'old school' biased niave individual who only see's black and white. Ive worked along side apprentices, most of whom admitted that my knowledge was greater than their's. I was regulary asked for advice.. I've met guys that cannot even use a micrometer, the kind of people with 'years' of experience.

Interesting how you assume all students are the same, when their are around 100 students being released each year from ab-inito. It appears to me that you are judging a minority.

Also, interestingly after speaking to a hanger manager, I was told that one of the best tech's was ex-bristol-in fact he was on permanent call when needed. :ugh:

boshank
Could you explain please as to which a/c type you and your friend managed to restore the complete hydraulic system on......and only took one week to do so ?.
Just curious.

Was it this one?

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produc...er/2702760.htm

:D
I wonder what the CAA would do if they knew you are willing to work on aircraft systems with no manuals only common sense.:=
Common sense tells me, as a time served licenced engineer, not to let you anywhere near an aircraft.:ok:

To be fair, I've had Brunel lads (both on work experience and with shiny new LWTR Section Ls) alongside me in the hangar and they were generally all right except for being a bit slow and underconfident to begin with. It's quite a jump from the classroom to the hangar floor and they need time to find their feet. Give them simple jobs initially and more challenging tasks as they progress. A good minder will keep an eye on them, handing out advice, insults and grudging compliments in equal measures. YOU could be the guy they remember fondly in twenty years time...
I've also met a couple of plonkers as well, with an 'I know it all' attitude but they usually get sorted out.

steve,
You've almost just described an actual apprenticeship. But these guys already have the bits of paper required to be licenced engineers
So what happens in a line enviornment?
Remember these lads already have the bits of paper, there's no time for them to find their feet, nobody to mind them and when the snags start coming there's no simple tasks! And there will be more than just insults in equal measures.
How does a young person with a big loan for their education and in a position of great responsibility, in their first job deal with commercial pressure?
I don't really want to take away from the effort these guys and gals put in but you just can't beat a good apprenticeship.

The 'know it all attitude' is quite common amongst alot of students, however-that's the same in most industies. Myself a humble person...

I hope you understand that it's not as easy as just passing the exams?

The logbook has to be filled with entries from each chapters, then you have to show preficiency in each area of aircraft maintenance. Not just two years of any 'work'. Actual signed of logsheets (2-3 yrs) worth.

As for the apprenticeship being any better? im not sure how you have come to a definitive conclusion considering the masses of variables involved.

Anyway..time to move on.

As soon as I get my license im leaving the industry, mainly due to the the whole school ground environment which exists within most hangers. Nothing against individuals, just those that exercise their 'experience' as being a weapon for arrogance and not using it appropriatly, i.e. helping others.

Most Tech's ive worked for have been superb, although there is always the underlying issue of what they really think???

Thanks Steve for your positive input, nice to see you understand my point more than the other so called 'grown' men.

:sad:

I would like to know that , Hkar66,catb1.1 ,is it easy to find the job outside hong kong?

If you are talking about europe then the answer is a definate NO at this time, it just simply isn 't recognised there.

I believe places that acept an ICAO type 2 licence wouldn't have a problem, Dubai for example you would have to sit an exam on legislation and the rest would be recognised for conversion.

When you think that the HKG system was set up by the UK CAA and is almost verbatum the same as EASA regs then it would be easy, but I can assure you it isn't.

that means I only work in hong kong ,isn't it?
how about if i having a FAA exam, is it much better?

And i would like to know the salary outside of HKG?

'You've almost just described an actual apprenticeship. But these guys already have the bits of paper required to be licenced engineers'.


not true...

You have to satisfy the CAA, (the same people that issued you'r license)that you have competent practical skills and experience-and that's not easy. Which AGAIN takes 2-3 years, normally 3 years of consistent work.

That gives 2years (exams/practical, including filing, working on dead aircraft etc) + 3 years practical, over all of the chapters. Then a type course 2 months, plus 6 months experience on type, after you have please QA.

That's around 5 years! so don't be fooled into thinking its just about having the 'paper bits'.

grababadger,
If it's not a daft question....why do you intend to get your licence...and then leave the industry?. This would, being logical, seem to be a counter productive course of action to take if you really want to change direction.

As for the apprenticeship issue, I wouldn't get overly concerned. When apprenticeships were the normal route, there were plenty of antagonists around who felt that unless you had completed a BA / BEA / BOAC / Woodford / Chadderton / Chester / Dunsfold etc etc version ( select location of choice here ) you had not done a "proper" apprenticeship.....as I was duly informed by at least 3 "managers" over the years in respect of my sabbatical at the Halton Hilton....the same comments were also applied to those trained in the FAA by the way.

kystal and chips,

Im learning to fly at the moment and have been advised by the CAA to get the B1 license as it will give me a better chance of getting a job. Im hoping to do some charity work in AFRICA, as a pilot-so the License may come in handy, where pilots/engineers are required.Plus if it all falls through I might have no choice but to fall back into engineering.

grababadger,

Well if that's your intention, your not as daft as you sound ;):E

Best of luck to you and your chosen area of work :ok:

Krystal and Chips,


Thanks..

Tell me what kind of business you are in?

Iv'e thought about going into business, maybe selling aircraft spares online... something I'll consider later on.

grababadger,

Check your PM's

I am starting a new job on monday I have B1/B2/C license and only turboprop experience still they gave me the job although they were searching for md 80 and b737 experienced guys so i think there is a shortage in engineers.

Furthermore I saw someone express conserns about to low quality on newly graduated engineers, I have also experienced the same during the last 2-3 years, I feel the lack of basic handworking skills and fault isolation skills. What is worse I´ve also seen totally fresh guys coming out with the attitude of "I know it all, been there done that", I told one guy lets see how tough you are when you are alone at night in the rain or snow with a nice wiring problem on a 30 year old aircraft where wiring tags are "a bit worn" or maybe a nice old fuel or oil leak and the flight ops guys(nothing against you ops guys) pushing for departure...
When I first got out on my first job you looked up to the guys with experience ( I am not saying to not ask questions or discuss the job)
When my licence was issued the CAA inspector looked me in the eyes and said this is no free pass to aviation work it is your Licence to learn!
I think that is a quite good way of looking at your licence no matter how old or experienced you are...
As for you fresh guys out there treat your mentors (or whatever you want to call them) with respect and they will give you respect back.
:}:}

I remember being told it was a licence to kill in the hands of the unwary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the stats on what is happening in Australia.

http://www.casa.gov.au/ame/amestats.htm

Interesting but not suprised to see the downward trend in the 21 to 30 age group. It would be interesting to see someone put in airframe numbers over the same period.

Checkout Ryanair - Awesome Pay and Benefits
 

I have seen a few comments here regarding the wages etc for us engineers that they seem to be quite low, i have just started up as an outstation with Ryanair and the pay is pretty good, i get to move around to spain etc and get some good benefits aswell, its good to get out of the cold into some good weather and a good roster aswell. im sure they have vacancies all over europe check out thier website for vacancies.. i think they are recruiting.

www.ryanair.com

A small update to the original topic - EASA supposedly had a meeting
last week on Wednesday last week re-opening the issue of Working Group145-12.

It would appear that the shortage of correctly qualified maintenance
staff is troubling not only the industry but now EASA directly.

If any change were to be implemented, what would this mean to you
if there was a reduced requirement to hold a Part 66 AML or indeed
any ICAO Type I AML in the EC states??

BAe146?? :{:{:{

They are looking at approving the Australian licence when the Australian Authority introduce the Easa style licencing system-B1 B2 etc. With this they hope Engineers will be able to travel accross borders subject to labour laws.

Correct me if I appear to have this wrong... but I am lead to believe that a lot of UK engineers have gone to Airbus and / or the Middle East, i.e. Dubai, to ease the burden on wallets and Bank Accounts, thus making an apparent shortage in UK's large aircraft industry.

I left the large ac world due to a form of progression in the helicopter world. I am 737 B1 rated, but with a helicopter background.

I also believe that some helicopter blokes have crossed to the Large side because of the shortage, thereby creating another shortage.

The thread seems to be that there is engineer movement throughout the aviation industry as money beckons to those that are looking - isnt that the way it was in the 80's?

Certainly hope that EASA doesnt admit OZ engineers. They say that they will accept your licence, however you have to do Air Leg (no problem) but also you will find that trade tests will have to be done and maybe modules, definately hurdles will be put in your way.
The Unions certainly don't want you and really niether do the OZ engineers.