View Poll Results: Should CEng and IEng be licenses to practice ?
Yes, CEng and IEng should be licenses to practice
18
45.00%
No, there is no need for licensing of management level Engineers
13
32.50%
Frankly it's irrelevant
6
15.00%
I don't have an opinion, but felt like voting anyway
3
7.50%
Voters: 40. This poll is closed
CEng or IEng as a licence to practice ?
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
From: uk
Blacksheep.
Pls rewiew my previous posts on this subject.I haven't mentioned half of what you credit me with saying.
The Boeing's [the new one's at least] are extremely well designed in comparison with older a/c I have worked on,1-11's etc... with very few improvements that I would feel worthy of reporting to the manufacturer.
From the tone of your post,I can only assume that you too,as well as my friend Genghis,feel you have reached a level far superior to the likes of myself,what was it? 'then you would be a proffesional'
AM I NOT ALREADY?......of course i'm not,I haven't got letters after my name! I must say,to save confusion,that I DONT WANT THEM!
However,I am a proffesional,and even if I say so myself,a bloody good one!The comparison to what the main man,Genghis,gets up to with his Cessna's and what myself and my colleages do with 'real' aircraft is non-existant.
Having re-read your previous post,it strikes me that you have,in fact,spent very little time 'at the sharp end'.You mention making our own tools or adapting the existing ones as though this would be a major breakthrough.I have been doing exactly that for the last 20 years and it has been the same wherever I have worked.Perhaps if you had had as much experience of maintenance at the sharp end as myself [as opposed to an office] then you would have realised that.
Pls rewiew my previous posts on this subject.I haven't mentioned half of what you credit me with saying.
The Boeing's [the new one's at least] are extremely well designed in comparison with older a/c I have worked on,1-11's etc... with very few improvements that I would feel worthy of reporting to the manufacturer.
From the tone of your post,I can only assume that you too,as well as my friend Genghis,feel you have reached a level far superior to the likes of myself,what was it? 'then you would be a proffesional'
AM I NOT ALREADY?......of course i'm not,I haven't got letters after my name! I must say,to save confusion,that I DONT WANT THEM!
However,I am a proffesional,and even if I say so myself,a bloody good one!The comparison to what the main man,Genghis,gets up to with his Cessna's and what myself and my colleages do with 'real' aircraft is non-existant.
Having re-read your previous post,it strikes me that you have,in fact,spent very little time 'at the sharp end'.You mention making our own tools or adapting the existing ones as though this would be a major breakthrough.I have been doing exactly that for the last 20 years and it has been the same wherever I have worked.Perhaps if you had had as much experience of maintenance at the sharp end as myself [as opposed to an office] then you would have realised that.
Cunning Artificer
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,125
Likes: 7
From: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Now then eng123, I didn't suggest that you don't already make your own specials or have your own 'work arounds' for difficult jobs, but do you tell anyone about these? or do anything else to resolve the problem? I do believe that what differentiates an Engineer from a Technician is that the former takes ownership of a problem and acts to change the underlying cause, while the Technician continues with things as they exist, accepting the state of the world as he finds it. Are you one of the former or the one of the latter?
I don't generally flaunt it, but since you challenge my experience here it is: -
After finishing my apprenticeship, 37 years as a skilled tradesman (now there's an expression that's gone out of fashion!!) of which 2 years Line and Base on MkIA & MkII Vulcan; 4 years Line on VC10; 3 years Line HS748, Whirlwind & Gazelle; 3 years B707 & B747 Overhaul; 3 years B737 Line; 4 years B737 & B757 Base as Avionics Foreman; 2 Years Base Maintenance Foreman on B737 & B757 Overhaul; 12 years development engineering (B757, B767, F50, F100, A319) with last 3 years as section head. [I wasted the missing 3 years loafing about in workshops.] My knees are brown and yes, I've got some time in at the sharp end. On real aeroplanes. In fact, I might even be one of those "Real Engineers" that one often hears about but seldom see...
I think I could still manage a turn-round defect in horizontal freezing rain at 3 a.m. At a push, I could still do a seventeen hour overnight stint, on some obscure emergency repair in the big shed, though with my grey hair, fading eyesight, elderly stoop and the onset of senile dementia, I'm probably not as good as I used to be when I was in my forties.
So, while I apologise for spending too much time in a back orifice, rest assured that I don't talk out of one...
Going back to the original topic, there are far too many examples of the validity of 'Incompetence Theory' around our workplaces. It will never be possible to eliminate all of them, but licensing all Engineering staff (Engineers, Technicians, Tradesmen or whatever else we may choose to call ourselves) and grading them through a process that uses independent review and assessment, is one way of reducing the parasites to a minimum.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
I don't generally flaunt it, but since you challenge my experience here it is: -
After finishing my apprenticeship, 37 years as a skilled tradesman (now there's an expression that's gone out of fashion!!) of which 2 years Line and Base on MkIA & MkII Vulcan; 4 years Line on VC10; 3 years Line HS748, Whirlwind & Gazelle; 3 years B707 & B747 Overhaul; 3 years B737 Line; 4 years B737 & B757 Base as Avionics Foreman; 2 Years Base Maintenance Foreman on B737 & B757 Overhaul; 12 years development engineering (B757, B767, F50, F100, A319) with last 3 years as section head. [I wasted the missing 3 years loafing about in workshops.] My knees are brown and yes, I've got some time in at the sharp end. On real aeroplanes. In fact, I might even be one of those "Real Engineers" that one often hears about but seldom see...
I think I could still manage a turn-round defect in horizontal freezing rain at 3 a.m. At a push, I could still do a seventeen hour overnight stint, on some obscure emergency repair in the big shed, though with my grey hair, fading eyesight, elderly stoop and the onset of senile dementia, I'm probably not as good as I used to be when I was in my forties.
So, while I apologise for spending too much time in a back orifice, rest assured that I don't talk out of one...
Going back to the original topic, there are far too many examples of the validity of 'Incompetence Theory' around our workplaces. It will never be possible to eliminate all of them, but licensing all Engineering staff (Engineers, Technicians, Tradesmen or whatever else we may choose to call ourselves) and grading them through a process that uses independent review and assessment, is one way of reducing the parasites to a minimum.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Last edited by Blacksheep; 10th March 2003 at 05:18.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
From: canada
No need to get personal here eng123.
I have worked with some unlicenced guys who are far better than I, and would trust their judgement anytime. I have also worked with some licenced guys who I wouldn't let change the batterys in my torch.
The dangers are the guys who just come to pick up a paycheck. They never see if you need a hand, never stay till the job is done, and don't care what they were on when the bell goes, they just pack up and leave. These are the parasites I'd like to see gone.
I have worked with some unlicenced guys who are far better than I, and would trust their judgement anytime. I have also worked with some licenced guys who I wouldn't let change the batterys in my torch.
The dangers are the guys who just come to pick up a paycheck. They never see if you need a hand, never stay till the job is done, and don't care what they were on when the bell goes, they just pack up and leave. These are the parasites I'd like to see gone.
Thread Starter
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
Once I tried to ask advice about recruiting somebody to do design investigation work, and a second time I ask about licensing of Chartered and Incorporated Engineers working in a similar environment. Both times people with chips on shoulders subvert it into a public rant about the status of qualified technicians / LAE / call yourself what you like. The term "professional engineer" is a misnomer often applied to "white collar" rather than "blue collar" engineers and the reason I used it in my previous post, which was perfectly clear.
Unless you feel qualified to conduct an Euler Buckling load analysis of a strutted wing, analyse the fatigue life of a drilled bracket, calculate the stresses in a modified seat harness, convert non-ISA flight test results to standard conditions, argue in incessant meetings with the CAA over changes to safety standards, and 101 other aspects of my job, why not get off your bandwagon and admit there are different jobs and qualifications, all equally necessary, all very difficult, requiring different qualifications, to some extent overlapping, but all called "Engineer".
Okay, I'll admit it, I have a degree, a handful of letters after my name, and although I spent some years of my life in overalls in a workshop or hangar environment, I happen to be much better at analysing designs and investigating airworthiness problems. I probably get paid less than some technicians, which doesn't trouble me at-all. What troubles me, and the reason I posted this poll, is that there are people working in similar jobs to mine, without formal professional qualifications, and in some cases I have doubts about their competence. You, as a working LAE, do not suffer this problem since your colleagues have to be CAA licensed.
And incidentally, you have to live with the consequences of cock-ups by my sort of Engineer, so I'd have thought it was in your interest as well as mine to raise the standards.
G
Unless you feel qualified to conduct an Euler Buckling load analysis of a strutted wing, analyse the fatigue life of a drilled bracket, calculate the stresses in a modified seat harness, convert non-ISA flight test results to standard conditions, argue in incessant meetings with the CAA over changes to safety standards, and 101 other aspects of my job, why not get off your bandwagon and admit there are different jobs and qualifications, all equally necessary, all very difficult, requiring different qualifications, to some extent overlapping, but all called "Engineer".
Okay, I'll admit it, I have a degree, a handful of letters after my name, and although I spent some years of my life in overalls in a workshop or hangar environment, I happen to be much better at analysing designs and investigating airworthiness problems. I probably get paid less than some technicians, which doesn't trouble me at-all. What troubles me, and the reason I posted this poll, is that there are people working in similar jobs to mine, without formal professional qualifications, and in some cases I have doubts about their competence. You, as a working LAE, do not suffer this problem since your colleagues have to be CAA licensed.
And incidentally, you have to live with the consequences of cock-ups by my sort of Engineer, so I'd have thought it was in your interest as well as mine to raise the standards.
G
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
From: canada
Point taken, fully agree, and have no heart ache. You are right in the fact that there are lots of jobs and qualifications, and each are as important as the next. I do what I do, and you do what you do. There is no need to point fingers and say that I am more important than the next guy. All this forum is about is getting people who don't fit the bill out of their spot because they are making this industry a slow and not overly productive environment.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: uk
Genghis my dear fellow,
First may I let it be known that I have absolutely NO AXE TO GRIND but I find you attitude both condescending and for a professional engineer of your mighty status I am surprised by your manner.
Looking at your posts you are obviously a one man aviation expert,designing,maintaining and flying aircraft and sometimes even in the rain.
When you decide to come back down to mother earth and join the rest of us mortals Im sure we'll all be grateful as I for one would love to give you a guided tour of engineering today as I and many of my collegues see it EVERY DAY.
I only work for a small airline operating over 60+ aircraft and turning round these aircraft about 140 times a day at our base alone (that includes problem solving and a sympathetic shoulder for the crews to rely on) and at night we have the luxury of only having 28 aircraft to look after.
This is done in all weathers every day by hard working engineers not all licenced but dedicated all the same. A person of your qualities would obviously be a major advantage to our operation and I cant understand why your not here?
Give me a call or come on down and we'll show you what aviation can be like in a high pressure/stress enviroment with an approximate timescale of 25 mins during the day and 6 hours at night and you can tell me how good letters are after youyr name in this situation.
What the industry requires are more engineers who are ready to get there hands dirty and do it again and again to keep the public flying safely with the knoledge that any decision they make is correct and safe.
What the engineers require is a little bit of recognition and a salary/conditions that reflects the vital job they are doing.Sadly in the case of most unlicenced engineers these are missing on all counts as eng's are seen as a necessary evil by the pen pushers.
Let me know!
First may I let it be known that I have absolutely NO AXE TO GRIND but I find you attitude both condescending and for a professional engineer of your mighty status I am surprised by your manner.
Looking at your posts you are obviously a one man aviation expert,designing,maintaining and flying aircraft and sometimes even in the rain.
When you decide to come back down to mother earth and join the rest of us mortals Im sure we'll all be grateful as I for one would love to give you a guided tour of engineering today as I and many of my collegues see it EVERY DAY.
I only work for a small airline operating over 60+ aircraft and turning round these aircraft about 140 times a day at our base alone (that includes problem solving and a sympathetic shoulder for the crews to rely on) and at night we have the luxury of only having 28 aircraft to look after.
This is done in all weathers every day by hard working engineers not all licenced but dedicated all the same. A person of your qualities would obviously be a major advantage to our operation and I cant understand why your not here?
Give me a call or come on down and we'll show you what aviation can be like in a high pressure/stress enviroment with an approximate timescale of 25 mins during the day and 6 hours at night and you can tell me how good letters are after youyr name in this situation.
What the industry requires are more engineers who are ready to get there hands dirty and do it again and again to keep the public flying safely with the knoledge that any decision they make is correct and safe.
What the engineers require is a little bit of recognition and a salary/conditions that reflects the vital job they are doing.Sadly in the case of most unlicenced engineers these are missing on all counts as eng's are seen as a necessary evil by the pen pushers.
Let me know!
Cunning Artificer
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,125
Likes: 7
From: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
You mean you do all that with a 60 ship fleet and no Technical Support Services to back you up, asheng? Hell thats tough, maybe we can help each other out. I'm doing a spot of research at the moment, what improvement in MTBUR have you seen since implementing the Sundstrand RIP programme? Did you negotiate a guaranteed maintenance cost per operating hour and if so what rate did you get? Are you affected by 2002-25-11? How are you coping? Send me a Private Message and maybe we can share our findings, after all the more information we can share, the greater the safety and performance pay-backs we get.
But of course, you aren't doing it all by yourselves are you? Aviation is a multi-skill environment and we all depend on each other....
Its horses for courses; we are all in the same profession, different compartments perhaps, but we all rely on each other. Engineering is underpaid and under-rated. As long as we remain divided amongst ourselves we will stay that way. IF we can achieve public recognition of engineering's proper place in the scheme of things, everyone in engineering will benefit - designers, maintainers, developers or whoever we may be. Thats what the real issue is. At the top of the profession are the people with post graduate degrees and several years of experience designing new things, be they whole aeroplanes and engines, or parts and sub-systems. At the other end of the scale are semi-skilled workers doing lubrication, ground handling and other essential but simpler jobs. The rest of us are somewhere in between, but all of us are in it together - sink or swim.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
But of course, you aren't doing it all by yourselves are you? Aviation is a multi-skill environment and we all depend on each other....
Its horses for courses; we are all in the same profession, different compartments perhaps, but we all rely on each other. Engineering is underpaid and under-rated. As long as we remain divided amongst ourselves we will stay that way. IF we can achieve public recognition of engineering's proper place in the scheme of things, everyone in engineering will benefit - designers, maintainers, developers or whoever we may be. Thats what the real issue is. At the top of the profession are the people with post graduate degrees and several years of experience designing new things, be they whole aeroplanes and engines, or parts and sub-systems. At the other end of the scale are semi-skilled workers doing lubrication, ground handling and other essential but simpler jobs. The rest of us are somewhere in between, but all of us are in it together - sink or swim.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: uk
Blacksheep I appologise if I offended you personally but it was not my intention as my feeling is not with any individual but trhe attitude of certain individuals.
My intension was never to imply that as engineers the aviation world begins and ends at the line or hangar enviroment as this is cleary not the case.It is a large industry utilising a vast variety of departments and expertise and brings together many professionals.
My point was without doubt aimed fairly at the condescending element that I feel Genghis and persons such as him fit into. I find his remarks to be of a nature to suggest that us mere mortals are obviously unfit to work in the same industry as the elevated beings such as himself feel they belong to.
To suggest that I have an axe to grind I feel rather insulting, Personally I wouldn't want to grind it but bury it into something soft.
Tommorow I will go back on shift with my other professional engineers to keep the public flying safely surrounded by yet further professionals who fly the complex machinery that keeps us all employed.I will be able to do this in the knowledge that if required there is a vast machine behind me willing to advise me should I require it on a vast range of technical subjects as is my whim and without these people I couldn't perform my tasks as the public/authorities/company/crew require.Of this we are all grateful for the contributions made and given freely.
Hopefully I wont come accross the pontificating likes of Genghis the so-called Engineer whose experiance relys on him doing some maintenance on his puddlejumper and sometimes in the rain but does have letters after his name!
My intension was never to imply that as engineers the aviation world begins and ends at the line or hangar enviroment as this is cleary not the case.It is a large industry utilising a vast variety of departments and expertise and brings together many professionals.
My point was without doubt aimed fairly at the condescending element that I feel Genghis and persons such as him fit into. I find his remarks to be of a nature to suggest that us mere mortals are obviously unfit to work in the same industry as the elevated beings such as himself feel they belong to.
To suggest that I have an axe to grind I feel rather insulting, Personally I wouldn't want to grind it but bury it into something soft.
Tommorow I will go back on shift with my other professional engineers to keep the public flying safely surrounded by yet further professionals who fly the complex machinery that keeps us all employed.I will be able to do this in the knowledge that if required there is a vast machine behind me willing to advise me should I require it on a vast range of technical subjects as is my whim and without these people I couldn't perform my tasks as the public/authorities/company/crew require.Of this we are all grateful for the contributions made and given freely.
Hopefully I wont come accross the pontificating likes of Genghis the so-called Engineer whose experiance relys on him doing some maintenance on his puddlejumper and sometimes in the rain but does have letters after his name!
Thread Starter
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
I wasn't aware that there was a prohibition to being approved to design, inspect, maintain and fly at the same time (well in the same year anyway, there are limits), nor to talking about more than one issue on the same website. I think it's also still legal to earn my living in GA, which is probably the only sector of the industry that this is still possible.
Any chance of getting back to the issue of licensing chartered and incorporated Engineers, rather than crew-room character assassination? I'd suggest that the point about the white collar .v. blue collar engineer debate, and about certain individuals opinions of yours truly have been made.
G
Genghis the so-called Engineer, so called Inspector, and so-called Test Pilot. (So called, by the Engineering Council, CAA and SETP, but I don't suppose their opinions are relevant).
And part, like everybody else, of a very large team.
Any chance of getting back to the issue of licensing chartered and incorporated Engineers, rather than crew-room character assassination? I'd suggest that the point about the white collar .v. blue collar engineer debate, and about certain individuals opinions of yours truly have been made.
G
Genghis the so-called Engineer, so called Inspector, and so-called Test Pilot. (So called, by the Engineering Council, CAA and SETP, but I don't suppose their opinions are relevant).
And part, like everybody else, of a very large team.
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 12th March 2003 at 22:26.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
From: uk
Well,been away from the pc for a few days and look what happens!
Blacksheep.
Any response that begins with 'now then',gives me the impression of being told of by a teacher at school!,but ignoring that,I was clearly wrong to question your practical experience.Having said that,without wishing to be confrontational,I do feel that some of your comments arise from spending the last 12 years in the design office.It's all these comments about differentiating between the 'technician' and 'engineer' that get me! If I continually encounter a problem,do I act on it or just carry on regardless? Well obviously,if it was a continually re-occuring design/tooling problem,OF COURSE we would act on it! Your earlier post implied that us mere 'technicians' would just continue to get around the same old problems without raising the issue with our Tech Services or similar which is not the case.It truly would be a priveledge to spend a nightshift or two with someone like yourself [and I mean that sincerely].If you fancied a night out then PM me and I'll try and sort a pass.[South of England]
rwm,
Please don't get me wrong,I'm not one of these people that look down on un-licenced people.The ONLY difference between licenced and un-licenced people is the fact that one set has passed an exam.Where I work,we have some TOP CLASS mech's who,in most cases,I very rarely feel the need to inspect their work.[obviously depending on what the particular job is]
ASFKAP,
Thanks for the link,no surprise there then!
Ghengis
You mention something about living with cock-ups that 'your sort of engineer' might make.Well forgive me if I quote you out of context,because I struggle to take in anything you say,but what about living with the consequences that 'my sort of engineer' may make,ie. on the ramp,ready to go,critical system.Do you not think they could be just as grave as the elite like yourself having designed it wrong in the first place?
Asheng,
Top post!!
Genghis
No,having opened this can of worms with your initial condescending attitude there is no chance of getting back to your 'chartered and incorporated' engineers.Anyway,having read this discussion,could I call myself 'I Eng' through my JAR 66? I do hope so,it would mean sooooo much to me! Imagine that,letters after my name!
eng123.
Blacksheep.
Any response that begins with 'now then',gives me the impression of being told of by a teacher at school!,but ignoring that,I was clearly wrong to question your practical experience.Having said that,without wishing to be confrontational,I do feel that some of your comments arise from spending the last 12 years in the design office.It's all these comments about differentiating between the 'technician' and 'engineer' that get me! If I continually encounter a problem,do I act on it or just carry on regardless? Well obviously,if it was a continually re-occuring design/tooling problem,OF COURSE we would act on it! Your earlier post implied that us mere 'technicians' would just continue to get around the same old problems without raising the issue with our Tech Services or similar which is not the case.It truly would be a priveledge to spend a nightshift or two with someone like yourself [and I mean that sincerely].If you fancied a night out then PM me and I'll try and sort a pass.[South of England]
rwm,
Please don't get me wrong,I'm not one of these people that look down on un-licenced people.The ONLY difference between licenced and un-licenced people is the fact that one set has passed an exam.Where I work,we have some TOP CLASS mech's who,in most cases,I very rarely feel the need to inspect their work.[obviously depending on what the particular job is]
ASFKAP,
Thanks for the link,no surprise there then!
Ghengis
You mention something about living with cock-ups that 'your sort of engineer' might make.Well forgive me if I quote you out of context,because I struggle to take in anything you say,but what about living with the consequences that 'my sort of engineer' may make,ie. on the ramp,ready to go,critical system.Do you not think they could be just as grave as the elite like yourself having designed it wrong in the first place?
Asheng,
Top post!!
Genghis
No,having opened this can of worms with your initial condescending attitude there is no chance of getting back to your 'chartered and incorporated' engineers.Anyway,having read this discussion,could I call myself 'I Eng' through my JAR 66? I do hope so,it would mean sooooo much to me! Imagine that,letters after my name!
eng123.
Last edited by eng123; 20th March 2003 at 22:42.
Cunning Artificer
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,125
Likes: 7
From: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
I'm an old fart, so I'm entitled to say "Now then" 
Could you get 'Incorporated Engineer' through your JAR66 licence? The answer is yes, you certainly could. All you have to do is submit to the inquisition ....
I'd be delighted to see you join the team; but wouldn't that be ironic? Come on then, e-mail Annabel, lets see what you're made of....
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Could you get 'Incorporated Engineer' through your JAR66 licence? The answer is yes, you certainly could. All you have to do is submit to the inquisition ....
I'd be delighted to see you join the team; but wouldn't that be ironic? Come on then, e-mail Annabel, lets see what you're made of....
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Last edited by Blacksheep; 13th March 2003 at 06:38.
Cunning Artificer
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,125
Likes: 7
From: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Just follow the link in my previous post and you'll get Annabel's e-mail address. She's a lovely lady and very helpful. Go on; I dare you! 
The more LAEs we get into the fold the better....
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Through difficulties to the cinema
The more LAEs we get into the fold the better....
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Through difficulties to the cinema
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
From: uk
Blacksheep,I thought you were calling me 'e-mail Annabel' in some jokey type reference to my proposal to spend a nightshift with us!
Having finally noticed your location,I can see the reason why you don't want to do that!
Now then,[!],I really have absolutely no interest in applying for letter's after my name as I really can't see the point.If you have any reasons to persuade me otherwise,please tell me and maybe I'll reconsider.
You do seem like a down to earth kind of bloke so please don't take offence from anything said earlier.
Cheers,
eng123.
Having finally noticed your location,I can see the reason why you don't want to do that!
Now then,[!],I really have absolutely no interest in applying for letter's after my name as I really can't see the point.If you have any reasons to persuade me otherwise,please tell me and maybe I'll reconsider.
You do seem like a down to earth kind of bloke so please don't take offence from anything said earlier.
Cheers,
eng123.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
As a complete non-engineer who occasionally lurks here out of interest, may I stick in my two-pennorth (and probably get flamed! 
)
AshEng and Eng123 , I think you're misunderstanding Genghis ' argument. He EMPHASISED that engineers doing your kind of job have to prove their worth. What he complained about was that engineers doing his job didn't...and therefore might be no good at it. Why on earth do you have a problem with that?
I know zilch about engineering...but I do know about people. Could it conceivably be the case that you have chips on your shoulders because you don't have degrees? Could it be that you don't like Genghis mentioning his qualifications without continually apologising for doing so...terribly un-English that, isn't it? Could you maybe have reacted to the person rather than the discussion as a result of the above?
I'm merely asking, that's all. After all, as a non-engineer, what do I know?
And my humble apologies for taking up your bandwidth, and even for being in here, oh great engineers.
) AshEng and Eng123 , I think you're misunderstanding Genghis ' argument. He EMPHASISED that engineers doing your kind of job have to prove their worth. What he complained about was that engineers doing his job didn't...and therefore might be no good at it. Why on earth do you have a problem with that?
I know zilch about engineering...but I do know about people. Could it conceivably be the case that you have chips on your shoulders because you don't have degrees? Could it be that you don't like Genghis mentioning his qualifications without continually apologising for doing so...terribly un-English that, isn't it? Could you maybe have reacted to the person rather than the discussion as a result of the above?
I'm merely asking, that's all. After all, as a non-engineer, what do I know?
And my humble apologies for taking up your bandwidth, and even for being in here, oh great engineers.
Joined: Oct 2001
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: East Sussex
Thanks Whirlybird
Whirlybird
It may be that this thread needed comments from a 'non Engineer type' person. I do see from your profile that you are a 'driver' so in my humble opinion you have an input and I welcome your comments.
Thank you
Tempsford
It may be that this thread needed comments from a 'non Engineer type' person. I do see from your profile that you are a 'driver' so in my humble opinion you have an input and I welcome your comments.
Thank you
Tempsford
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
From: uk
Hands-up! I DO accept what Ghengis' point is and I have done so [in my own mind] since I first read his post.I have managed to sidetrack his argument onto my own personal agenda which was wrong on my part.I have since sent him a reply and apology for the personal abuse ,which was honestly only meant as a bit of light hearted banter, but which I can now see could easily be seen as something else.
Yours,[whilst eating lots of humble pie!]
eng123
Yours,[whilst eating lots of humble pie!]
eng123
Thread Starter
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
Since Eng123 has been good enough to post the message above, it's only polite that I also say I've replied accepting the apology and hoping that we can continue to enjoy some good technical arguments. Hopefully we can now avoid boxing gloves behind the hangar at dawn.
G
G
