Restricted 66 B1
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Restricted 66 B1
Apologies, but I've already posted this question over on Airmech and haven't had any answers as yet, so I thought i'd widen my search for an answer, here goes:-
I have got a LWTR Cat A, Aeroplanes 2. After a bit of a break from studying I've just started back on the exam trail, with my first 2 JAR Modules taken. Mod 15 and 17 so far , no results back yet.
To have a usefull licence when I convert my LWTR over to a JAR 66 B1 ticket, how many Modules do I need to Pass ? Obviously the ideal would be all of them, but a LWTR A&C person can convert their licence to a usefull restricted 66 B1, I have worked with people who have done this, and their Company Auth's are the same as a A&C guy. Would my Cat A Aeroplanes 2 plus.. say...a pass in module 15, 17, and 11 equate to a JAR66 licence with the same restrictions as the converted A&C guys ? Or am I stuck where I am until I have taken and passed all of the Required B1 modules that I am not exempt ?
This brings me on to my second question.
If you are just starting out on the quest to gain a JAR66 B1. Lets say you are an Experienced Fitter/Mechanic who has been working on A/C for years, after formal training. How many Modules do you need to pass before you can 'Trade them in' for a usefull Restricted or full B1 Licence.
If the answers to these questions are just so obvious I apologise for my stupidity in advance. I have asked quite a few people now and don't seem to get a definative answer. It would seem that if you take and pass all of the modules, no problem. If you convert an A, C & X Elect with an Avionic Extension ( glass cockpit) no problem. If you are an 'inbetweeny' like me there seems to be a bit of 'uncertainty'.
As always any help greatly appreciated.
I have got a LWTR Cat A, Aeroplanes 2. After a bit of a break from studying I've just started back on the exam trail, with my first 2 JAR Modules taken. Mod 15 and 17 so far , no results back yet.
To have a usefull licence when I convert my LWTR over to a JAR 66 B1 ticket, how many Modules do I need to Pass ? Obviously the ideal would be all of them, but a LWTR A&C person can convert their licence to a usefull restricted 66 B1, I have worked with people who have done this, and their Company Auth's are the same as a A&C guy. Would my Cat A Aeroplanes 2 plus.. say...a pass in module 15, 17, and 11 equate to a JAR66 licence with the same restrictions as the converted A&C guys ? Or am I stuck where I am until I have taken and passed all of the Required B1 modules that I am not exempt ?
This brings me on to my second question.
If you are just starting out on the quest to gain a JAR66 B1. Lets say you are an Experienced Fitter/Mechanic who has been working on A/C for years, after formal training. How many Modules do you need to pass before you can 'Trade them in' for a usefull Restricted or full B1 Licence.
If the answers to these questions are just so obvious I apologise for my stupidity in advance. I have asked quite a few people now and don't seem to get a definative answer. It would seem that if you take and pass all of the modules, no problem. If you convert an A, C & X Elect with an Avionic Extension ( glass cockpit) no problem. If you are an 'inbetweeny' like me there seems to be a bit of 'uncertainty'.
As always any help greatly appreciated.
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KwikPhix you are quite right mate, this is a messy procedure and unfortunately logic and even precedent do not prevail. The advent of JAR-66 has allowed the CAA to put the onus of certification privileges pretty much in the control of the JAR 145 organisations. Whether we like it or not its here to stay so we have to make do.
In my experience converting from Section L to 66 with restrictions can inhibit your authorisation potential and lead to confusion. It really depends on how the 145 organisation you are working with have written their MOE/MMOE with regards to certification privileges. No two 145's are the same, you and I both know that, as yet, JAA/JAR has not created the utopia of a level playing field. Most 145's follow the road of black and white purely because no NAA, let alone the CAA can get a handle on this mess. In short full B1 / B2 with no restrictions is currently the most straightforward option.
I assume that your'e after a B1-1 Aeroplanes - Turbine rating. On this basis and i.a.w. current CAA guidelines to achieve this you need to pass the following JAR66 modules :
3.9 to 3.18,4,5,7.7,11.5.2,11.6,11.8,11.10,11.14, and the two you have already sat, 15 & 17.
In addition check on your " protected rights " status. For example if you held Avionic extensions in LRU category which were valid on 1/6/2001 and you were currently employed within a 145 organisation at that time it is possible you can be exempt from module 5. If you qualify for this it needs to be backed up by a letter of confrmation from the 145 concerned.
My interpretation of the experienced mech issue is that if no formal NAA/CAA licence qualification is held then you probably have to start from square one. I have made cases for fellas before and achieved some small exemptions but this is done on an individual basis. As has been so well publicised, the ability to talk sensibly on a one to one basis with engineer licensing is proving more and more difficult.
We could go on for hours about this but I do believe this is the most painless way currently available to us A/C/X/R Section L blokes. Forgive me if I have only told what you know just trying to help. Good luck.
In my experience converting from Section L to 66 with restrictions can inhibit your authorisation potential and lead to confusion. It really depends on how the 145 organisation you are working with have written their MOE/MMOE with regards to certification privileges. No two 145's are the same, you and I both know that, as yet, JAA/JAR has not created the utopia of a level playing field. Most 145's follow the road of black and white purely because no NAA, let alone the CAA can get a handle on this mess. In short full B1 / B2 with no restrictions is currently the most straightforward option.
I assume that your'e after a B1-1 Aeroplanes - Turbine rating. On this basis and i.a.w. current CAA guidelines to achieve this you need to pass the following JAR66 modules :
3.9 to 3.18,4,5,7.7,11.5.2,11.6,11.8,11.10,11.14, and the two you have already sat, 15 & 17.
In addition check on your " protected rights " status. For example if you held Avionic extensions in LRU category which were valid on 1/6/2001 and you were currently employed within a 145 organisation at that time it is possible you can be exempt from module 5. If you qualify for this it needs to be backed up by a letter of confrmation from the 145 concerned.
My interpretation of the experienced mech issue is that if no formal NAA/CAA licence qualification is held then you probably have to start from square one. I have made cases for fellas before and achieved some small exemptions but this is done on an individual basis. As has been so well publicised, the ability to talk sensibly on a one to one basis with engineer licensing is proving more and more difficult.
We could go on for hours about this but I do believe this is the most painless way currently available to us A/C/X/R Section L blokes. Forgive me if I have only told what you know just trying to help. Good luck.
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Thanks for your thought Mighty Thor.
Funnily enough, my LWTR Cat A Aero 2 wasn't issued until 02 June 2001, even though i took my oral in mid may. Not to worry though. I couldn't hold the Avionic extension within my company as I didn't have both A & C prior to this date. My Licence is up for 1st renewal in 6 months time, and I don't know whether to keep my Sect L and renew it and just hold onto any (if any
) JAR 66 pass certificates I might hold at the time until I've got them all , or to Renew my licence and exchange it for a JAR 66 B1-1 with restrictions even if I don't manage to get all the Exam modules passed before June.
I will admit that there is a financial gain to be had with my organisation, if you hold both full A & C Company Approvals/Auths. Along with the fact that it makes everybodies life easier when it comes to manpower planning. With the demise of the LWTR Cat C I am now unable to get that licence and Company Auth ( pay rise
).
I just wondered if there was anything to be gained by holding even a restricted B1-1. ie would my Quality manager be able to issue a full 'A & C' Authorisation based on the holder having a restricted B1-1.
Funnily enough, my LWTR Cat A Aero 2 wasn't issued until 02 June 2001, even though i took my oral in mid may. Not to worry though. I couldn't hold the Avionic extension within my company as I didn't have both A & C prior to this date. My Licence is up for 1st renewal in 6 months time, and I don't know whether to keep my Sect L and renew it and just hold onto any (if any
) JAR 66 pass certificates I might hold at the time until I've got them all , or to Renew my licence and exchange it for a JAR 66 B1-1 with restrictions even if I don't manage to get all the Exam modules passed before June.I will admit that there is a financial gain to be had with my organisation, if you hold both full A & C Company Approvals/Auths. Along with the fact that it makes everybodies life easier when it comes to manpower planning. With the demise of the LWTR Cat C I am now unable to get that licence and Company Auth ( pay rise
).I just wondered if there was anything to be gained by holding even a restricted B1-1. ie would my Quality manager be able to issue a full 'A & C' Authorisation based on the holder having a restricted B1-1.
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Having been a QM for a while I have tried to fight a way through this minefield for the past eighteen months or so. By no means am I an expert but I gladly pass on to you how I have tried to interpret this issue and work it into the 145 for the benefit of us LAE's.
A couple more thoughts KP, 66 is basically designed to encompass the A & C disciplines into one combined licence, a bit like the poor old chopper blokes have always had to put up with. A type rating is only issued on 66 as a combined Airframe and Engine. The problem is this also extends down to the basic 66 B1 ratings, as you are no doubt aware. Because your present coverage is limited to LWTR A2, upon conversion you will pick up some restrictions unless you have the modules in your pocket we have already mentioned.
I think it would be very difficult, at this time, for your QM to issue you with a full A & C authorisation. That said you should be able to automatically qualify for the 66 A category privileges.
Its probably best that you consider persuing the missing modules over the next months and then convert to 66 B1-1 and deal with the restrictions , if any. If you do not have any existing CRS privileges above Limited and Simple ( terrible term, no slur intended sir ) and no protected rights issues, based on the fact that your LWTR A2 is young and as you correctly say the LWTR C road is gone there is not much for you to gain by not converting.
Have a chat with your QM, he/she will know your MOE and may be able to come up with some options. We have just dealt with a couple of situations like yours and in both cases we had to convert, best for the individual in the long run. Believe me it was a last resort, our MOE is nothing if not creative.
In short mate you need to be A & C now! Sorry if this rambles but its difficult to explain a 3 dimensional problem in single dimensional terms. Again good luck.
A couple more thoughts KP, 66 is basically designed to encompass the A & C disciplines into one combined licence, a bit like the poor old chopper blokes have always had to put up with. A type rating is only issued on 66 as a combined Airframe and Engine. The problem is this also extends down to the basic 66 B1 ratings, as you are no doubt aware. Because your present coverage is limited to LWTR A2, upon conversion you will pick up some restrictions unless you have the modules in your pocket we have already mentioned.
I think it would be very difficult, at this time, for your QM to issue you with a full A & C authorisation. That said you should be able to automatically qualify for the 66 A category privileges.
Its probably best that you consider persuing the missing modules over the next months and then convert to 66 B1-1 and deal with the restrictions , if any. If you do not have any existing CRS privileges above Limited and Simple ( terrible term, no slur intended sir ) and no protected rights issues, based on the fact that your LWTR A2 is young and as you correctly say the LWTR C road is gone there is not much for you to gain by not converting.
Have a chat with your QM, he/she will know your MOE and may be able to come up with some options. We have just dealt with a couple of situations like yours and in both cases we had to convert, best for the individual in the long run. Believe me it was a last resort, our MOE is nothing if not creative.
In short mate you need to be A & C now! Sorry if this rambles but its difficult to explain a 3 dimensional problem in single dimensional terms. Again good luck.
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KwikPhix,
I think your goose may already be cooked. I have a suspicion that all BCAR licences that are renewed after June 2002 will be converted to JAR 66 licences unless the applicant can show evidence of work on a/c below 5700 kgs. In which case he will be given either a BCAR licence only, restricted to a/c below 5700 or will be able to hold 2 licences, if his/her work covers both weight groups.
This only applies to renewal and extension of licence privileges, if you are adding new types to your JAR 145 approval then licence conversion is not req'd.
I could be wrong though
Cheers.
I think your goose may already be cooked. I have a suspicion that all BCAR licences that are renewed after June 2002 will be converted to JAR 66 licences unless the applicant can show evidence of work on a/c below 5700 kgs. In which case he will be given either a BCAR licence only, restricted to a/c below 5700 or will be able to hold 2 licences, if his/her work covers both weight groups.
This only applies to renewal and extension of licence privileges, if you are adding new types to your JAR 145 approval then licence conversion is not req'd.
I could be wrong though
Cheers.
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Thanks for all the inputs,
Basically I'm going to keep plodding along, probably take one module each month between now and June and see what I've got in my bag come renewal time. I do have full Airframe CRS/Dup, plus Engine Run Approval and am limited & simple on all other 'trades'. I can't see that any of my current approvals will be revoked if I switch to a JAR66 B1-1 ( Restricted or Not).
Thamks again.
Basically I'm going to keep plodding along, probably take one module each month between now and June and see what I've got in my bag come renewal time. I do have full Airframe CRS/Dup, plus Engine Run Approval and am limited & simple on all other 'trades'. I can't see that any of my current approvals will be revoked if I switch to a JAR66 B1-1 ( Restricted or Not).
Thamks again.
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I don't think you are quite right there mono, but am prepared to be proven wrong. I think that any sect L licences that are renewed currently, remain so until the holder wants to convert to JAR66. The only case when they will automatically be converted is when the 10 year period runs out (2010?)
