Companies who refuse to return engineers certificates and CAA refuse to help
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: uk
Companies who refuse to return engineers certificates and CAA refuse to help
hi all
Ok, so here's the set up, here's what is happening and any feedback would be appreciated .
As you are all aware, it is hard enough jumping through the hoops of the sideways thinking, money grabbing UK CAA and retaining docs for licence re-newals , (such as hf, continuation, currency proof etc is hard enough.)
I finished working for a UK 145 company some 8 months ago, when I gave notice I have requested them to supply me with my certificates which they have held on file , including type training certificates, hf, continuation training, currency letter, cddl, ewis, etc etc , which are all required to get a new job.
8 months later, after lots of e mails, phone calls etc ...... Still nothing !!
A phone talk to the tech director was answered with "if they still have copies" they will send them !!!!
Now forgive me if I'm wrong.....but how would this company pass a CAA audit with this type of op?
I decided to speak to the UK CAA .... The answer I got ...... Nothing to do with us !!!!!!!!!!!!
Erm........UK CAA Engineers certification documents being withheld by UK CAA 145 organisation ....... But it's nothing to do with the UK CAA ??
Can anyone direct me to a legal organisation that could take this on for me, as the lawyers I have contacted have said that it is illegal to withhold "intellectual property" eg course Certs , but they are not willing to take the case as they have no experience in aviation sector or are not willing to take on the UK CAA
Ok, so here's the set up, here's what is happening and any feedback would be appreciated .
As you are all aware, it is hard enough jumping through the hoops of the sideways thinking, money grabbing UK CAA and retaining docs for licence re-newals , (such as hf, continuation, currency proof etc is hard enough.)
I finished working for a UK 145 company some 8 months ago, when I gave notice I have requested them to supply me with my certificates which they have held on file , including type training certificates, hf, continuation training, currency letter, cddl, ewis, etc etc , which are all required to get a new job.
8 months later, after lots of e mails, phone calls etc ...... Still nothing !!
A phone talk to the tech director was answered with "if they still have copies" they will send them !!!!
Now forgive me if I'm wrong.....but how would this company pass a CAA audit with this type of op?
I decided to speak to the UK CAA .... The answer I got ...... Nothing to do with us !!!!!!!!!!!!
Erm........UK CAA Engineers certification documents being withheld by UK CAA 145 organisation ....... But it's nothing to do with the UK CAA ??
Can anyone direct me to a legal organisation that could take this on for me, as the lawyers I have contacted have said that it is illegal to withhold "intellectual property" eg course Certs , but they are not willing to take the case as they have no experience in aviation sector or are not willing to take on the UK CAA
Joined: Nov 2010
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 480
Likes: 276
From: Sweden
If the company provided HF, EWIS and FTS courses etc, at their expense, why should they provide you with copies of the certs? If, on the other hand, you paid for the courses why did you allow the company to keep the original certificates? Copies would have sufficed.
Last edited by Avionker; 4th October 2015 at 16:22.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,415
Likes: 2
From: Europe
The courses were at my own expense !
Paid for by Me
Paid for by Me
For anyone's benefit in the future, you should NEVER hand over an original certificate; a "Certified true copy" is entirely adequate for he company's records, and that can be done in the QA office, or hangar office, in accordance with company MOE procedures. For contractors, most QMs will accept certified copies signed by reputable agencies, but some require sight of the originals on arrival, and then hand them back.
The certificate issuer will usually, and certainly should, issue a duplicate replacement on request, perhaps for a reasonable, small, admin and postage charge.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: Austin, Texas, USA
In the United States (Texas anyway) if an employer or service provider attempts to retain the personal documents of a customer or employee that is considered theft by most Police departments.
Accountants and lawyers run afoul of this issue sometimes when they refuse to return original documents because their former client has not paid them.
Accountants and lawyers run afoul of this issue sometimes when they refuse to return original documents because their former client has not paid them.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: South London
"Accountants and lawyers run afoul of this issue sometimes when they refuse to return original documents because their former client has not paid them".
Just to clarify, an Auditor (Accountant) will not return documents or sign off a statutory audit if the client has failed to pay. In short, the documents or sign off is held back as security to ensure payment of the debt. To use a fancy bit of French, the items are held 'in lien'.
Reading this through, unless Flyingspanner has somesort of debt to the employer (I'm thinking e.g. company tools in the back of the motor that need to be returned), the employer has no right to withhold the return of the certificates.
To resolve this matter, I would advise you telephone call to the Managing Director or CEO of the company you contracted asking for your documents to be returned. I would try and be polite about it rather than rant down the phone and emphasise you wish to avoid going down the legal route or contacting the CAA. I suspect the issue is that a dozy HR Assistant thinks they should retain the original certificates rather than photocopy them and hold the copies on file. Needless to say, they ought to have returned the originals to you on joining.
For future reference, scan your certificates, pdf them and email to the firm in question. That way you retain possession. If they want to see the originals, flash them when you meet the firm say at interview but whatever you do, don't let go of them! Let me know how you get on.
Just to clarify, an Auditor (Accountant) will not return documents or sign off a statutory audit if the client has failed to pay. In short, the documents or sign off is held back as security to ensure payment of the debt. To use a fancy bit of French, the items are held 'in lien'.
Reading this through, unless Flyingspanner has somesort of debt to the employer (I'm thinking e.g. company tools in the back of the motor that need to be returned), the employer has no right to withhold the return of the certificates.
To resolve this matter, I would advise you telephone call to the Managing Director or CEO of the company you contracted asking for your documents to be returned. I would try and be polite about it rather than rant down the phone and emphasise you wish to avoid going down the legal route or contacting the CAA. I suspect the issue is that a dozy HR Assistant thinks they should retain the original certificates rather than photocopy them and hold the copies on file. Needless to say, they ought to have returned the originals to you on joining.
For future reference, scan your certificates, pdf them and email to the firm in question. That way you retain possession. If they want to see the originals, flash them when you meet the firm say at interview but whatever you do, don't let go of them! Let me know how you get on.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,130
Likes: 56
From: Anglia
If they are yours because you paid for them, then sue them for withholding your property or charge them with theft of your property.
If, on the other hand, you did not pay for them and they were sent directly to the company who did pay for them, then it may be your own error for letting the company have the originals - if you could have avoided it.
I believe this is a very "French" way of controlling aviation personnel by denying personal qualifications and keeping them tied to employment with "Company-use only" qualifications.
This "Air France" method was hard fought against when JAR-66/EASA Part 66 was formed and it was deemed (then) to be against human rights because it stifled the free movement of aviation personnel.
...maybe you could try that approach?
If, on the other hand, you did not pay for them and they were sent directly to the company who did pay for them, then it may be your own error for letting the company have the originals - if you could have avoided it.
I believe this is a very "French" way of controlling aviation personnel by denying personal qualifications and keeping them tied to employment with "Company-use only" qualifications.
This "Air France" method was hard fought against when JAR-66/EASA Part 66 was formed and it was deemed (then) to be against human rights because it stifled the free movement of aviation personnel.
...maybe you could try that approach?
