Is there REALLY a shortage of LAE's?
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I can't speak for the US but in the Uk there is shortage. There is an increasing number of EASA B licenced available, but nothing I have seen yet convinces me that the EASA licence equates with the old BCAR licence. As a consequence many who would have not 'cleared the bar' now get through. Yes there will be many capable people who will make fine engineers. However there are a lot of people who have learned to answer questions in a multi choice paper and who do not really understand systems or the principles underlying them. If I were an employer I'd want to see some proof of ability. Overall the level of competence is declining.
As to pilots and engineers. I would like to see engineers valued more not pilots less. The two roles are different but each in their own way requires hard work to maintain the required level of professionalism. The pilots are valued for many reasons not least of which of which is their strong unions. BALPA, I believe, sends in a queens Counsel to negotiate and although this costs it gets results. Also pilots do not usually criticise one another in public engineers queue up to do it.
One thing has always puzzled me though. Pilots are only interested in pilots and nobody else. I can accept this. Given though that even the best pilot cannot fly a seriously defective aircraft, (obviously depending on the nature of the defect), you would think then that they would keep at least half an eye on their engineering departments. This for their own safety. But they have no interest whatsoever, seems at best a bit short sighted. At this point I would like to make a nod to those honourable exceptions, few in number, who do take an interest. As to the rest, are you as smart as you think you are?
So there may be an adequate number of people holding bits of paper but there is a real shortage of 'the right stuff'.
As I said in a previous posting I'm glad to be out of it soon. I have seen it at it's best and I don't like the way it's going.
As to pilots and engineers. I would like to see engineers valued more not pilots less. The two roles are different but each in their own way requires hard work to maintain the required level of professionalism. The pilots are valued for many reasons not least of which of which is their strong unions. BALPA, I believe, sends in a queens Counsel to negotiate and although this costs it gets results. Also pilots do not usually criticise one another in public engineers queue up to do it.
One thing has always puzzled me though. Pilots are only interested in pilots and nobody else. I can accept this. Given though that even the best pilot cannot fly a seriously defective aircraft, (obviously depending on the nature of the defect), you would think then that they would keep at least half an eye on their engineering departments. This for their own safety. But they have no interest whatsoever, seems at best a bit short sighted. At this point I would like to make a nod to those honourable exceptions, few in number, who do take an interest. As to the rest, are you as smart as you think you are?
So there may be an adequate number of people holding bits of paper but there is a real shortage of 'the right stuff'.
As I said in a previous posting I'm glad to be out of it soon. I have seen it at it's best and I don't like the way it's going.
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Tournesol, I have just seen your last post. It may be a language thing, I certainly hope it is, but you come across as more than a little arrogant. Most of the engineers I know are very proud of what they do and do it because it's what they want to do.
Most of the crew I meet respect their engineers and treat them accordingly,(not withstanding the point I made earlier).
Most of the crew I meet respect their engineers and treat them accordingly,(not withstanding the point I made earlier).
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Greatwhitehunter,
I have never been disrespecfull to anyone because of their profession, race religion, sex orientation or skin color.
Funny enough I happen to have a number of LMEs friends that I respect and admire their skills.
The only ppl I have a problem, are the ones who start bitching about others.
Should the LMEs get better wages? I will be the one to fight for their cause.
Should they start compare their status to pilots? NOOOO. The two professions are not comparable.
That is MY OPINION and I am entitled to it. I will always respect your views even when they are different from mine. That is what make life interesting.
I have never been disrespecfull to anyone because of their profession, race religion, sex orientation or skin color.
Funny enough I happen to have a number of LMEs friends that I respect and admire their skills.
The only ppl I have a problem, are the ones who start bitching about others.
Should the LMEs get better wages? I will be the one to fight for their cause.
Should they start compare their status to pilots? NOOOO. The two professions are not comparable.
That is MY OPINION and I am entitled to it. I will always respect your views even when they are different from mine. That is what make life interesting.
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Also pilots do not usually criticize one another in public engineers queue up to do it.
I have seen AMT's on the other hand brag about themselves or complain about others (usually a combination of both) in front of everyone, esp MGT looking for a leg up. Hell I now spend less energy fixing aircraft and more energy working on my self image for the betterment of the craft. I do not brag when I find a 3 month old smoking gun, I do not talk about the people I work with when they screw up. I do always refer to the person(s) I am working with as us, "we fixed it". I do give praise any chance I can "we had been working this pig for 12 hours and Johnny here found wire XXX shorted at this location"
Having said all that I really wish there were more AMT's/LAME's out their like me!!!!!
Last edited by grounded27; 21st Nov 2011 at 20:25.
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Tournesol,
Nowhere in my posts have I said that pilots and engineers should receive the same renumeration. My concern is the reduction in quality and competence affecting maintenance which is partly related to cost cutting and partly to the pay and conditions offered to new engineers. I would not want to see aircraft flying with a reduced safety margin. What pilots earn is their business and none of mine.
You are fully entitled to your opinions and as you say it's the differences that make life interesting. I was trying to make the point though that the way you sometimes expessed your views would be taken as insulting by some readers. I was positing the view that this might have been because english was not your first language rather than being intentional. On the other hand you might be arrogant and proud of it.
Nowhere in my posts have I said that pilots and engineers should receive the same renumeration. My concern is the reduction in quality and competence affecting maintenance which is partly related to cost cutting and partly to the pay and conditions offered to new engineers. I would not want to see aircraft flying with a reduced safety margin. What pilots earn is their business and none of mine.
You are fully entitled to your opinions and as you say it's the differences that make life interesting. I was trying to make the point though that the way you sometimes expessed your views would be taken as insulting by some readers. I was positing the view that this might have been because english was not your first language rather than being intentional. On the other hand you might be arrogant and proud of it.
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That is what make life interesting.
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So do I Grounded27. Sadly where I work changes are bing pushed through that are calculated to set everyone against everyone else and devil take the hindmost. It's a culture of appearance over everything else. A well respected LAE was bollocked for 'writing too slowly in the log', another got an 'attaboy' for clearing a lot of ADDs all of which came back on the next flight.
maybe Tournesol has a point maybe we are mentally deficient.
maybe Tournesol has a point maybe we are mentally deficient.
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everybody will have a different opinion, the ones that are good VS. the ones that think they are good. so yes, there is a shortage of good mechs/techs/engineers.
but the sad thing is that good ones are getting frustrated because some management
are taking the priviledges(that they deserve) of some hard working good guys. and yes, why bust your ass off if for the same amount of money you can just 
but the sad thing is that good ones are getting frustrated because some management
are taking the priviledges(that they deserve) of some hard working good guys. and yes, why bust your ass off if for the same amount of money you can just
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Grounded 27,
Wether we like it or not, changes will always happen.
Not too long ago they had 5 crew members in the cockpit of large airliners.
Over the years, the wireless radio operator dissapeared, then the navigator, followed by the flight engineer. We are down to two. It is just a matter of time before the pilot dissapears.
Similar things have happened every where. I recall a time when a car mechanic use to listen to the sound of the engine and actually fix an item when deffects are noticed. Now the car is plugged to a computor and the mec is "told" to replace a certain box.
That is just the way things are and will continue to change.
As for me being arrogant, that is your opinion.
Wether we like it or not, changes will always happen.
Not too long ago they had 5 crew members in the cockpit of large airliners.
Over the years, the wireless radio operator dissapeared, then the navigator, followed by the flight engineer. We are down to two. It is just a matter of time before the pilot dissapears.
Similar things have happened every where. I recall a time when a car mechanic use to listen to the sound of the engine and actually fix an item when deffects are noticed. Now the car is plugged to a computor and the mec is "told" to replace a certain box.
That is just the way things are and will continue to change.
As for me being arrogant, that is your opinion.
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Please don't take my question as a snipe at pilots, the intention of my post was to question the percived "underclass" of the engineer, when they are as vital to the operation as the captin. Both pilots & engineers have a mutual interest to look after each other in my humble opinion.
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Kengineer-130,
OK , sorry man.
I do not know if there is a lack of Engineers maybe , but the thing i am sure is that , nowadays , most airlines or companies are trying to save money by having less Engineers as possible , sad but true ...
OK , sorry man.
I do not know if there is a lack of Engineers maybe , but the thing i am sure is that , nowadays , most airlines or companies are trying to save money by having less Engineers as possible , sad but true ...
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Kengineer,
I can only speak for where I work where my experience has been that many engineers who have become managers do most of the damage to their colleagues pay and conditions. It is their activities that help create the engineering 'underclass'.
The second major cause is that unions in general do not support our aspirations. In larger companies we are a bargaining chip for the unions and they have no wish to see us get shead of anyone else. The ALAE did good work but was not recognised in many places and now they are part of Prospect, (time will tell on wheather this is a good thing).
lastly as I intimated earlier we don't hang together. If in any organisation, unionised or not, we supported one another we would be in a better position. Instead there is always someone who for short term advantage will sell out his/her and everyone else's future.
Even if you lay aside any arguments about what a pilots or engineers job is intrinsically worth the pilots will always do better because they do not fall foul of the above faults. If engineers are to be valued in future they must behave as a cohesive, professional group.
I can only speak for where I work where my experience has been that many engineers who have become managers do most of the damage to their colleagues pay and conditions. It is their activities that help create the engineering 'underclass'.
The second major cause is that unions in general do not support our aspirations. In larger companies we are a bargaining chip for the unions and they have no wish to see us get shead of anyone else. The ALAE did good work but was not recognised in many places and now they are part of Prospect, (time will tell on wheather this is a good thing).
lastly as I intimated earlier we don't hang together. If in any organisation, unionised or not, we supported one another we would be in a better position. Instead there is always someone who for short term advantage will sell out his/her and everyone else's future.
Even if you lay aside any arguments about what a pilots or engineers job is intrinsically worth the pilots will always do better because they do not fall foul of the above faults. If engineers are to be valued in future they must behave as a cohesive, professional group.
Last edited by greatwhitehunter; 22nd Nov 2011 at 10:29.
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Grounded27. Your exactly right. We, instead of I.....
I'm a keen team player and if johnny found the problem, then it's johnny who gets the glory!! (as such. In a way of well done, now we can fix it and get her flying again)
I get fed up of all the I did this and I did that........ But I have found that if they break something, it's We did this and we did that!! Really.......
It was once pointed out to me by our Storeman that some licenced engineers have big egos. Refuse help from others as they don't want to be upper classed! Ever since I was made aware of this it is very obvious!
Its a shame to see!
I'm a keen team player and if johnny found the problem, then it's johnny who gets the glory!! (as such. In a way of well done, now we can fix it and get her flying again)
I get fed up of all the I did this and I did that........ But I have found that if they break something, it's We did this and we did that!! Really.......
It was once pointed out to me by our Storeman that some licenced engineers have big egos. Refuse help from others as they don't want to be upper classed! Ever since I was made aware of this it is very obvious!
Its a shame to see!
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Tournesol
As for me being arrogant, that is your opinion.
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Sadly I believe there is negative public/management perception of LAMEs. You have only got to look at the way the Pilots swan about the airport even in their civies with ties on etc. They can be total numpties, but they look the part.
Couldn't agree more about the new gen LAMEs reliance on the FIM, if you were to believe boeings FIM you'd be replacing wiring before the most obvious component.
If somebody could put up a cost analysis to management (that they could understand) then maybe we could prove the real worth of a properly trained, experienced LAME.
Couldn't agree more about the new gen LAMEs reliance on the FIM, if you were to believe boeings FIM you'd be replacing wiring before the most obvious component.
If somebody could put up a cost analysis to management (that they could understand) then maybe we could prove the real worth of a properly trained, experienced LAME.
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Maybe not Shell ...
Could you please explain why bringing back the BCARs will "give" a better technicity as i do not see your point ...?
Are you european ?
Thats how things are nowadays in Europe and , Sir , we are in 2011 and you have to live with your time.
Are you still working at 64 years old ?
Could you please explain why bringing back the BCARs will "give" a better technicity as i do not see your point ...?
Are you european ?
Thats how things are nowadays in Europe and , Sir , we are in 2011 and you have to live with your time.
Are you still working at 64 years old ?
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At the risk of greatly oversimplifying a complex and serious issue for the sake of lightening up a bit, let's not forget a rule of thumb that applies in most situations; if an engineer screws up fatally, it's the pilot who kisses his a**e goodbye, and if a pilot screws up fatally, it's the pilot who kisses his a**e goodbye.
An M3 MRO that I was once involved with decreed that the engineer who signed off an aircraft after work calling for a test flight should ride as the observer on the test flight, along with the company pilot. The ensuing outrage reverberated for months, centering around the declaration "Not my job, mate". They won, but I always felt the principle had a lot going for it. So far as pay negotiations went, it was a Pyrrhic victory for the engineers.
An M3 MRO that I was once involved with decreed that the engineer who signed off an aircraft after work calling for a test flight should ride as the observer on the test flight, along with the company pilot. The ensuing outrage reverberated for months, centering around the declaration "Not my job, mate". They won, but I always felt the principle had a lot going for it. So far as pay negotiations went, it was a Pyrrhic victory for the engineers.
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EGT,
Did you reply to my first question to Shell , i do not think so ...
Why are you talking again about this "jealous" stuff ...?
Some Frenchies got a position you were dreaming of ?
May i suggest you to read the EASA rules mostly about the grand-fathers laws ...
Personnaly , i will not say to an older Engineer how he should work.
It is not because you got a piece of paper before others that you are a "better" Engineer.
A need to justify that you are not a butcher ?
(my first AML is from 2003 , what about yours ?).
You are right , i did not pass a single license examination but two and this during three years of apprenticeship ...
On that time , I was doing lockwiring by hand and replacing wirings only by following the diagrams.
Do you think you are able to do it ?
Did you reply to my first question to Shell , i do not think so ...
Why are you talking again about this "jealous" stuff ...?
Some Frenchies got a position you were dreaming of ?
May i suggest you to read the EASA rules mostly about the grand-fathers laws ...
Personnaly , i will not say to an older Engineer how he should work.
It is not because you got a piece of paper before others that you are a "better" Engineer.
A need to justify that you are not a butcher ?
(my first AML is from 2003 , what about yours ?).
You are right , i did not pass a single license examination but two and this during three years of apprenticeship ...
On that time , I was doing lockwiring by hand and replacing wirings only by following the diagrams.
Do you think you are able to do it ?