Working directive for engineers
Joined: Feb 2002
Aviation Qualifications: AME
Posts: 4,166
Likes: 1,096
From: UK
SC
97% refers to that particular employer only. If what I hear through the grapevine is true then they would not have had much choice.
My own circumstances a very different (thank the gods) and as far as I know no one who works where I do has opted out of the WTD.
So please when you refer to stupidity of engineers can you be more specific as one or two of us are getting a bit peeved with your general outburst.
Regards,
T (37.5 hrs/week & no overtime for months
)
97% refers to that particular employer only. If what I hear through the grapevine is true then they would not have had much choice.
My own circumstances a very different (thank the gods) and as far as I know no one who works where I do has opted out of the WTD.
So please when you refer to stupidity of engineers can you be more specific as one or two of us are getting a bit peeved with your general outburst.
Regards,
T (37.5 hrs/week & no overtime for months
)
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 78
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From: LHR
The figure of 97% is brought up time and time again. 97% is one hell of a huge majority........Think why. Because 97% of engineers are not stupid! By voting to opt out it gives the individual a choice to work long hours or to only work a standard shift. An employer can only ask, not force an employee to work excessive hours. The choice is therefore yours and you have the freedom to make the decision yourself rather than be regulated. Nice position to be in!
Joined: Nov 2010
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 480
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From: Sweden
I actually meant anything constructive to add, not just repeating previous insults.
Now try reading this quote from the original post:-
This is what the original post was about. Yet you chose to launch into a vitriolic and unprovoked attack on a large group of people, for some unknown reason.
Now can you, or can you not, answer the question posed by the OP?
If so then please do, if not then kindly shut up. I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of your jaundiced views.
Now try reading this quote from the original post:-
I'm looking for something that says that you can't be expected to work seven days a week continuously, without any planned days off.
Now can you, or can you not, answer the question posed by the OP?
If so then please do, if not then kindly shut up. I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of your jaundiced views.
Last edited by Avionker; 6th August 2011 at 15:57.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 3,038
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From: .
Joined: Nov 2010
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 480
Likes: 276
From: Sweden
For the love of god man, read what people are writing, not what you want to read......
Who is complaining about working more than 48 hours a week? No one that I can see...
The OP wanted to know if he could, or should, be expected to work 7 days a week, between 3 and 5 hours a day, on a continuous basis.
That is between 21 and 35 hours a week. The WTD will not prevent him from doing this, so why in the hell are you so fixated on it?
Who is complaining about working more than 48 hours a week? No one that I can see...
The OP wanted to know if he could, or should, be expected to work 7 days a week, between 3 and 5 hours a day, on a continuous basis.
That is between 21 and 35 hours a week. The WTD will not prevent him from doing this, so why in the hell are you so fixated on it?
Thought police antagonist
Joined: Jul 2003
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 1,572
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From: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
" Stop pretending you are intelligent, you ain't "
And that comment alone from you would confirm, that, you are indeed a serious flight safety hazard.
And that comment alone from you would confirm, that, you are indeed a serious flight safety hazard.
Joined: Feb 2002
Aviation Qualifications: AME
Posts: 4,166
Likes: 1,096
From: UK
The figure of 97% is brought up time and time again. 97% is one hell of a huge majority........Think why. Because 97% of engineers are not stupid! By voting to opt out it gives the individual a choice to work long hours or to only work a standard shift. An employer can only ask, not force an employee to work excessive hours. The choice is therefore yours and you have the freedom to make the decision yourself rather than be regulated. Nice position to be in!
The WTD gives the employee protection from an overbearing employer. Opting out gives the employer carte blanche.
Besides, if you average out 48 hrs over 17 weeks it's quite easy to slip in a few doublers if your normal week is 35 or 40 hrs.
SC, give it a rest eh. We get it. some people are their own worst enemies and will work all the hours they can regardless of their own health/fatigue condition. Yes they are 'stupid' but please do not tar us all with the same brush.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 109
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From: UK
UK LAE working hours
CAA Paper 2002/06: Work Hours of Aircraft Maintenance Personnel
CAA Paper 2002/06: Work Hours of Aircraft Maintenance Personnel | Publications | CAA
The EC WTD is enacted in the UK through the Working Time Regulations (WTR). The WTR contains an 'opt out' clause. This clause permits a work pattern of more than 48 hours in any one week but only if an average of less than 48hours/week can be achieved over a 17-week period. Working in excess of this is not permitted for any employees, either permanent or contracted staff.
As long as LAE is working within the rule, it is lawful.
To call LAE stupidity is to lower your integrity gaining no respect from any one.
CAA Paper 2002/06: Work Hours of Aircraft Maintenance Personnel | Publications | CAA
The EC WTD is enacted in the UK through the Working Time Regulations (WTR). The WTR contains an 'opt out' clause. This clause permits a work pattern of more than 48 hours in any one week but only if an average of less than 48hours/week can be achieved over a 17-week period. Working in excess of this is not permitted for any employees, either permanent or contracted staff.
As long as LAE is working within the rule, it is lawful.
To call LAE stupidity is to lower your integrity gaining no respect from any one.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
From: UK
kuchan get your facts right before trying to come across as intelligent.
The opt out is to enable you to work as much as you wish. That means NO LIMITS on the hours worked.
Example of opt-out agreement
I [name] agree that I may work for more than an average of 48 hours a week. If I change my mind, I will give my employer [amount of time - up to three months] notice in writing to end this agreement.
Signed……....................................
Dated………..................................
I [name] agree that I may work for more than an average of 48 hours a week. If I change my mind, I will give my employer [amount of time - up to three months] notice in writing to end this agreement.
Signed……....................................
Dated………..................................
Last edited by Safety Concerns; 12th September 2013 at 20:45.
Joined: Nov 2010
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 480
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From: Sweden
It's easy to let it go. Stop calling people stupid, just because they don't see the world as you do. Accept that people are individuals. Some engineers want hours regulated, some maybe don't. Some people are greedy some are not.
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you say, but I do disagree with your sweeping statements, generalisations and "holier then thou" attitude.
You come on the Engineers and Technicians forum, insult the entire group of people for whom this forum exists, not really the best way to get your point across in my opinion.
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you say, but I do disagree with your sweeping statements, generalisations and "holier then thou" attitude.
You come on the Engineers and Technicians forum, insult the entire group of people for whom this forum exists, not really the best way to get your point across in my opinion.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,980
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From: Gatwick
SC
From this months CHIRP -
The EC WTD is enacted in the UK through the Working Time Regulations (WTR). The WTR contains an 'opt out' clause. This clause permits a work pattern of more than 48 hours in any one week but only if an average of less than 48hours/week can be achieved over a 17-week period. Working in excess of this is not permitted for any employees, either permanent or contracted staff.
Individuals over 18 years of age, who wish to work more than 48 hours a week can choose to opt out of the WTR 48-hour limit; however, this must be voluntary, on an individual basis and in writing unless it has been negotiated as a joint agreement with the whole workforce under the WTR. An individual can cancel the 'opt out' whenever they want, even if it is part of an employment contract, however, the employer must be given advance notice of this intent and depending on the contractual obligation this period will be a minimum of 7 days but could be up to three months.
For individuals who are contracted to work for more than one employer, the total combined hours worked should not exceed the 48-hour average limit.
It should be noted that there are specific provisions in the WTR for night and shift working that also need to be taken into account.
The responsibility for ensuring compliance with the WTR rests with the Health and Safety Executive not the CAA; however, the working pattern described in this report is also contrary to CAA guidance on shift working practices (CAA Paper 2002/06).
As I see that, you can work more than 48 hrs a week, but you cannot opt out of the 17 week average.
The EC WTD is enacted in the UK through the Working Time Regulations (WTR). The WTR contains an 'opt out' clause. This clause permits a work pattern of more than 48 hours in any one week but only if an average of less than 48hours/week can be achieved over a 17-week period. Working in excess of this is not permitted for any employees, either permanent or contracted staff.
Individuals over 18 years of age, who wish to work more than 48 hours a week can choose to opt out of the WTR 48-hour limit; however, this must be voluntary, on an individual basis and in writing unless it has been negotiated as a joint agreement with the whole workforce under the WTR. An individual can cancel the 'opt out' whenever they want, even if it is part of an employment contract, however, the employer must be given advance notice of this intent and depending on the contractual obligation this period will be a minimum of 7 days but could be up to three months.
For individuals who are contracted to work for more than one employer, the total combined hours worked should not exceed the 48-hour average limit.
It should be noted that there are specific provisions in the WTR for night and shift working that also need to be taken into account.
The responsibility for ensuring compliance with the WTR rests with the Health and Safety Executive not the CAA; however, the working pattern described in this report is also contrary to CAA guidance on shift working practices (CAA Paper 2002/06).
As I see that, you can work more than 48 hrs a week, but you cannot opt out of the 17 week average.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 109
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From: UK
The responsibility for ensuring compliance with the WTR rests with the Health and Safety Executive not the CAA, but a robust internal quality and safety oversight process must also be considered to be fundamental to CAA.
The CAA Regional Office is responsible for reinforcement of the company management the requirements necessary for the re-issue of an AOC should the company repeatedly ignore any warning.
The CAA Regional Office is responsible for reinforcement of the company management the requirements necessary for the re-issue of an AOC should the company repeatedly ignore any warning.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
From: Carry be Anne
Looks like I've opened up a right can of worms here!
To add a little more light on my query I will give a little more detail of the circumstances I found myself in.
Until quite recently I was an overseas engineer for a UK based charter airline covering turn rounds in the Caribbean. Actually it was the dream job, but as most good things, they do come to an end!
Unfortunately the airline in question has started to reduce it's long haul fleet and operations and I have been made redundant. In the five years I have been out here I have made the Caribbean my home, and for obvious reasons I do not wish to return to the UK.
I was approached by one of my third party customers (German) to come and work for them. Although it was in the same country, it would have meant a relocation to the other side of the island.
They sent me their prospective flying program which was when I noticed that they had planned flights seven days a week. When i queried this they acknowledged this but still expected me to run their operation out here on my own without a day off.
When I asked them when I would get a day off, they said that they would send out a relief engineer when I want to take leave.
This is when I posted my query to see if what this German company is expecting me to do is against any recommendations from any of the authorities. I am aware that my weekly hours would not exceed 48hrs, but what about a day off?
To add a little more light on my query I will give a little more detail of the circumstances I found myself in.
Until quite recently I was an overseas engineer for a UK based charter airline covering turn rounds in the Caribbean. Actually it was the dream job, but as most good things, they do come to an end!
Unfortunately the airline in question has started to reduce it's long haul fleet and operations and I have been made redundant. In the five years I have been out here I have made the Caribbean my home, and for obvious reasons I do not wish to return to the UK.
I was approached by one of my third party customers (German) to come and work for them. Although it was in the same country, it would have meant a relocation to the other side of the island.
They sent me their prospective flying program which was when I noticed that they had planned flights seven days a week. When i queried this they acknowledged this but still expected me to run their operation out here on my own without a day off.
When I asked them when I would get a day off, they said that they would send out a relief engineer when I want to take leave.
This is when I posted my query to see if what this German company is expecting me to do is against any recommendations from any of the authorities. I am aware that my weekly hours would not exceed 48hrs, but what about a day off?
