Working directive for engineers
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Working directive for engineers
I once stumbled across a document that gave the suggested working week for licensed engineers, but now I can't find it.
I'm looking for something that says that you can't be expected to work seven days a week continuously, without any planned days off.
The job in question only takes between three to five hours each day (an ETOPS transit), but the expectation is to plod along and do it indefinitely as a full time contract covering at least one flight a day, seven days a week.
Can anyone point me to a document that might show management that this is not an acceptable working practice? As far as I'm aware it's not illegal, but I think it goes against CAA/EASA recommendations.
Cheers
I'm looking for something that says that you can't be expected to work seven days a week continuously, without any planned days off.
The job in question only takes between three to five hours each day (an ETOPS transit), but the expectation is to plod along and do it indefinitely as a full time contract covering at least one flight a day, seven days a week.
Can anyone point me to a document that might show management that this is not an acceptable working practice? As far as I'm aware it's not illegal, but I think it goes against CAA/EASA recommendations.
Cheers
A real can of worms this one!.......If OT is there many will work it for obvious reasons
The crux of the current situation is that all the working hours regulations are nothing more than recommendations with most choosing to ignore via the opt out clause. Unfortunately, it's a fact that many MRO's and Airlines could not operate without Engineers working OT. If the rules below were rigidly enforced there would be a lot of trouble! (which clearly shouldn't be the case!)
According to ‘The Working Time Regulations 1998’ and ‘The Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2003’5, an employer should ensure that a worker does not work in excess of an average of 48 hours per week over a 17-week period. In the 1998 regulations the air industry was excluded from this rule, but in 2003 this air industry exclusion was removed. However, the 48‑hour limit does not apply if a worker has agreed with his employer, in writing, that it should not apply in his case. 97% of engineers at the AMO, including Sup A, had signed an ‘opt-out’ agreement so that the 48-hour limit would not apply to them.
The crux of the current situation is that all the working hours regulations are nothing more than recommendations with most choosing to ignore via the opt out clause. Unfortunately, it's a fact that many MRO's and Airlines could not operate without Engineers working OT. If the rules below were rigidly enforced there would be a lot of trouble! (which clearly shouldn't be the case!)
According to ‘The Working Time Regulations 1998’ and ‘The Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2003’5, an employer should ensure that a worker does not work in excess of an average of 48 hours per week over a 17-week period. In the 1998 regulations the air industry was excluded from this rule, but in 2003 this air industry exclusion was removed. However, the 48‑hour limit does not apply if a worker has agreed with his employer, in writing, that it should not apply in his case. 97% of engineers at the AMO, including Sup A, had signed an ‘opt-out’ agreement so that the 48-hour limit would not apply to them.
Safety Concerns....As usual I see you have managed to stoop to your normal quality of postings!
On the subject of real prostitution, what about the newly qualified FO's who are actually paying certain airlines serious money to sit in the R/H seat to build time!?
No one in this industry will I'm sure pretend that the current situation with regard to working hours is ideal. However, face facts!....nothing will change until the regulator actually mandates the maximum hours we can work. Will this happen?......what do you think!?
Its not just a problem in this industry too!! As I said in my post yesterday, if OT is there, human nature dictates there will be those who work it!
On the subject of real prostitution, what about the newly qualified FO's who are actually paying certain airlines serious money to sit in the R/H seat to build time!? No one in this industry will I'm sure pretend that the current situation with regard to working hours is ideal. However, face facts!....nothing will change until the regulator actually mandates the maximum hours we can work. Will this happen?......what do you think!?
Its not just a problem in this industry too!! As I said in my post yesterday, if OT is there, human nature dictates there will be those who work it!
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Certain companies i know only allow 60 hours per week / 6 days per week maximum.. Others I've seen 77 hours + anything more they can get.. and crew chiefs earning 6 figure pay packets cos they live at work..
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We are not allowed to do shifts any longer than 12 hours, except in an AOG situation when we can only work a max of 16 and then have an 11 hour break, we can not work more than 7 days without a rest day.
And yes I have walked away from an AOG at the 16 hour point and come back the next day, you have to have the courage of your convictions and an employer that will support you helps.
So you see some are more regulated than others, the problem is with employers who have no concept of human factors or health and safety.
Therefore do not tar everyone with the same brush. Some employers do actually care.
And yes I have walked away from an AOG at the 16 hour point and come back the next day, you have to have the courage of your convictions and an employer that will support you helps.
So you see some are more regulated than others, the problem is with employers who have no concept of human factors or health and safety.
Therefore do not tar everyone with the same brush. Some employers do actually care.
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" I read this and can only shake my head. You put in print what a bunch of fools you engineers really are."
Unlike your statement ( I can be, and have been, called many things, but take exception to fool.... in a working capacity ) a polite question.
What is your occupation, your experience in aircraft maintenance and your basis for making such an asinine observation....please.
True, I no longer work in the airline world, but I do work in another area of aviation with live aircraft....but I did my share of o/t when I was so employed plus AOG's...how about yourself ?.
Unlike your statement ( I can be, and have been, called many things, but take exception to fool.... in a working capacity ) a polite question.
What is your occupation, your experience in aircraft maintenance and your basis for making such an asinine observation....please.
True, I no longer work in the airline world, but I do work in another area of aviation with live aircraft....but I did my share of o/t when I was so employed plus AOG's...how about yourself ?.
While SC's poorly written sentiments are correct, in that people will need to be restrained from working all the hours they can whilst at the same time possibly jeopardising those they should be trying to protect from accidents, the reality of cost and maintenance manpower will rule until such time as a mandated Working Time Directive is put in place. This cannot be done for UK alone and must be a world-wide directive to protect cost sensitivities and certainly the UK's safety record.
However bad some may portray our safety status, I believe the UK is still only second to the US. (but we should also remember that we used to be first.)
However bad some may portray our safety status, I believe the UK is still only second to the US. (but we should also remember that we used to be first.)
There is no doubting that some engineers are, or can be, stupid - in the same way that some "Quality" personnel (me included) can be accused of being shut up in ivory towers for too long and develop a sense of wellbeing by dictating what should be done through e-mails, megaphones and publications that most shop floor's have ceased to read many years ago.
There is nothing like a practical way to prevent someone doing something and writing posters isn't always the way to do it.
AD's were purely introduced to mandate the acceptable (not always correct) way to manage something. Laws do the same. And if ICAO, FAA, EASA, the blessed CAA or even Commerce cannot see the safety issues in not enforcing this as they have done for the drivers of aeroplanes and HGV's, then why should anyone volunteer to reduce their incomes to placate this seemingly weak proposal?
There is nothing like a practical way to prevent someone doing something and writing posters isn't always the way to do it.
AD's were purely introduced to mandate the acceptable (not always correct) way to manage something. Laws do the same. And if ICAO, FAA, EASA, the blessed CAA or even Commerce cannot see the safety issues in not enforcing this as they have done for the drivers of aeroplanes and HGV's, then why should anyone volunteer to reduce their incomes to placate this seemingly weak proposal?
Safety Concerns………..Do yourself a favour as others have suggested and kindly moderate your language! You are simply coming across as a bigoted keyboard coward happy to spout off in all directions! Also, is there a hint of jealously here!?....After all, you found it hard to accept what an LAE mentioned he was earning with OT in the thread about salaries a few weeks ago!
Also, is there a hint of jealously here!?....After all, you found it hard to accept what an LAE mentioned he was earning with OT in the thread about salaries a few weeks ago!
Read the original post Safety Concerns.
Do the arithmetic and tell me how opting out off the WD would prevent this situation arising.
In case you are curious, yes I do opt out all the time. As a contractor I am expected to do long hours, I have no problem with it as I don't normally work for months on end, just a few weeks. I know my personal limits and will say no to excessive overtime, I have no intention of working myself into the grave and am also aware of the effects of fatigue on performance.
I object to being called stupid and suggest that you moderate your language and stop making such sweeping statements.
Incidentally don't forget that the only reason you have a job is because of people on the shop floor, actually doing the work that allows the company to turn a profit.
The job in question only takes between three to five hours each day (an ETOPS transit), but the expectation is to plod along and do it indefinitely as a full time contract covering at least one flight a day, seven days a week.
In case you are curious, yes I do opt out all the time. As a contractor I am expected to do long hours, I have no problem with it as I don't normally work for months on end, just a few weeks. I know my personal limits and will say no to excessive overtime, I have no intention of working myself into the grave and am also aware of the effects of fatigue on performance.
I object to being called stupid and suggest that you moderate your language and stop making such sweeping statements.
Incidentally don't forget that the only reason you have a job is because of people on the shop floor, actually doing the work that allows the company to turn a profit.
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" have had a very long and successful career in quality for those trying to deflect from the real issue of engineer stupidity "
The real issue is your complete inability to communicate and I would venture to suggest this is equally applicable in your inter-personal skills when at work.
There are common strands in your posts that imply you feel you always know best and are never wrong.
In aviation, this makes you a potentially very high risk flight safety hazard.....although it is unlikely you would even begin to understand why.
Your response ( as underlined above ) is interesting therefore and which leads to the question(s)...which discipline are you ?.....is this career path wholly within aviation...and how did you start your career ?
I only ask because I think we would all like to know how, and why, you feel your arrogance and denegratory comments about engineers has arisen from your own experience and which seemingly makes you the defining authority on any subject..in contrast to mere mortals on here...like myself for example.
The real issue is your complete inability to communicate and I would venture to suggest this is equally applicable in your inter-personal skills when at work.
There are common strands in your posts that imply you feel you always know best and are never wrong.
In aviation, this makes you a potentially very high risk flight safety hazard.....although it is unlikely you would even begin to understand why.
Your response ( as underlined above ) is interesting therefore and which leads to the question(s)...which discipline are you ?.....is this career path wholly within aviation...and how did you start your career ?
I only ask because I think we would all like to know how, and why, you feel your arrogance and denegratory comments about engineers has arisen from your own experience and which seemingly makes you the defining authority on any subject..in contrast to mere mortals on here...like myself for example.
Last edited by Krystal n chips; 31st Jul 2011 at 19:48.
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Safety Concerns you are making your assumption on the basis that the overtime is always wanted by the engineers, plenty of places I have been it's the management twisting the engineers arm as they have no cover, a/c late off check etc. Perhaps if the QA dept's looked at the shift/ station cover on their annual audits and addressed it then the overtime would decline but that would require them to put their neck on the block which rarely seems to happen these days.
Things are rarely are simple as they seem.
Things are rarely are simple as they seem.
Safety Concerns, as a 'Quality' person (I use the expression guardedly!),is this a discussion about safety or money? What’s your organisations policy on opting out & fatigue management?
With many (all?) organisations the opt out form is filled in during your probationary period. Yes some people are greedy, but no more so than any other industry. Fear plays a part, people like to keep their job!
Your naive if you believe that guidelines or recommendations do any good or that all people who sign the opt out are gutless. Until the regulators 'grow a pair' and come up with a mandated set of regulations for maintainers fatigue management, the situation will continue, exacerbated by the economic climate.
It can’t be about money as all you Quality guys earn a fortune! If it’s not the case, would you like any vinegar?
With many (all?) organisations the opt out form is filled in during your probationary period. Yes some people are greedy, but no more so than any other industry. Fear plays a part, people like to keep their job!
Your naive if you believe that guidelines or recommendations do any good or that all people who sign the opt out are gutless. Until the regulators 'grow a pair' and come up with a mandated set of regulations for maintainers fatigue management, the situation will continue, exacerbated by the economic climate.
It can’t be about money as all you Quality guys earn a fortune! If it’s not the case, would you like any vinegar?
Because the WTD has an Opt-Out it cannot be a "Law" - it can only be an optional practice.
And it is a optional practice because no-one (business managers/management) in the aviation industry wants maintenance working hours to be made an enforceable "Law".
Btw, I'm on salary so it wont affect my more-than-enough hours!
And it is a optional practice because no-one (business managers/management) in the aviation industry wants maintenance working hours to be made an enforceable "Law".
Btw, I'm on salary so it wont affect my more-than-enough hours!