How did you start your career?
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How did you start your career?
Hi Everybody,
the question of the topic is important for me to understand how to start a career from zero, just with a recent mechanical engineering degree of good Ol'Europe .
I'm asking as all my tries were unsuccessful, both with airlines and MRO providers, but driven by passion I can't give up seeking ; is the economic downturn hitting so hard that none is hiring young unexperienced professionals, or is it that an engineering degree is still not sufficient to join the business in these so competitive days?
Please enlighten me on our experience if you like, and feel free to give any suggestions you consider useful.
the question of the topic is important for me to understand how to start a career from zero, just with a recent mechanical engineering degree of good Ol'Europe .
I'm asking as all my tries were unsuccessful, both with airlines and MRO providers, but driven by passion I can't give up seeking ; is the economic downturn hitting so hard that none is hiring young unexperienced professionals, or is it that an engineering degree is still not sufficient to join the business in these so competitive days?
Please enlighten me on our experience if you like, and feel free to give any suggestions you consider useful.
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I began as a teenager, riding an old bicycle fifteen miles to the airport each night. Nobody would pay me to work on airplanes or to work at the airport. I found a position washing and waxing airplanes at night, in exchange for airplane rental and flight instruction. At the time, airplane rental was between fifteen and thirty dollars an hour, and I had to work about thirty hours in exchange for each hour of airplane rental. It didn't pay much, but as a kid, I didn't care.
Being at the airport a lot eventually lead me to begin helping open and close airframes for 100 hour inspections, then greasing wheel bearings, then basic trouble shooting, and so on.
I eventually worked various commercial flying jobs, always turning wrenches at the same time, and years later obtained my mechanics certification based on experience on the job, testing with a designated examiner at a college. I went on to become an inspector with a repair station.
From the time I first began working at the airport, I was encouraged to buy tools. As we all know, tools are very expensive. I have wrench sets that cost seven hundred dollars or more. Rather than buy the entire set, I bought every single too one item at a time. Buy one screw driver, and pay it off. Buy one wrench, and pay it off. One at a time. Many years later, half a dozen roll-a-way boxes are full of tools, and I haven't stopped. Buying tools is an investment; I can always use another. Perhaps something new, perhaps something better. Some of the tools are very worn, some hardly used. No matter.
Along the way I've had company training, professional training, but mostly on-the-job training. When I arrived at my first repair station, I had very limited experience. My first assignment was to fabricate and test a hydraulic line. I'd never done it, so I was given some on-the-job training, then told to go to work. It was a steep learning curve. That facility handled everything from large radial engines to turbojet and turboprop engines. On any given day, one might be doing electrical work, hydraulic, pneumatic work, or sheet metal, or fabric. I fabricated, I repaired, I inspected.
There's no school like the school of hard knocks. Anything else is just preliminary.
I consider myself a perpetual student. Nearly every time I work with someone, I learn something new. I anticipate that today will be no different, and I certainly hope that tomorrow is the same.
Being at the airport a lot eventually lead me to begin helping open and close airframes for 100 hour inspections, then greasing wheel bearings, then basic trouble shooting, and so on.
I eventually worked various commercial flying jobs, always turning wrenches at the same time, and years later obtained my mechanics certification based on experience on the job, testing with a designated examiner at a college. I went on to become an inspector with a repair station.
From the time I first began working at the airport, I was encouraged to buy tools. As we all know, tools are very expensive. I have wrench sets that cost seven hundred dollars or more. Rather than buy the entire set, I bought every single too one item at a time. Buy one screw driver, and pay it off. Buy one wrench, and pay it off. One at a time. Many years later, half a dozen roll-a-way boxes are full of tools, and I haven't stopped. Buying tools is an investment; I can always use another. Perhaps something new, perhaps something better. Some of the tools are very worn, some hardly used. No matter.
Along the way I've had company training, professional training, but mostly on-the-job training. When I arrived at my first repair station, I had very limited experience. My first assignment was to fabricate and test a hydraulic line. I'd never done it, so I was given some on-the-job training, then told to go to work. It was a steep learning curve. That facility handled everything from large radial engines to turbojet and turboprop engines. On any given day, one might be doing electrical work, hydraulic, pneumatic work, or sheet metal, or fabric. I fabricated, I repaired, I inspected.
There's no school like the school of hard knocks. Anything else is just preliminary.
I consider myself a perpetual student. Nearly every time I work with someone, I learn something new. I anticipate that today will be no different, and I certainly hope that tomorrow is the same.
A-levels, got a scholarship to do a combined apprenticeship and degree at what used to be called the Royal Aircraft Establishment. Did those, managed to get a placement in that time in a flight test department, and also got some flying in the University Air Squadron.
That all led to me concluding that the jobs I really wanted to do were those that went to people who understood both flying and engineering.
So, I started both trying to get those jobs, and trying to gain both flying and engineering qualifications. I also learned the importance of joining the right professional societies, and contributing to them - or sometimes to projects that were just important to me but didn't pay, this has all helped me a lot.
A couple of decades after I started, I have acquired a fair number of each, and a lot of experience in both. And I keep finding new areas that I want to know more about, so I do. There are enough people prepared to pay for the time of somebody with my combination of skills, that I live well.
I have tended to concentrate on the more analytical end of engineering, rather than the practical "hands on" end. This isn't so much choice, as doing the stuff I'm good at - I'm okay with tools, good in a cockpit, but bloody good with analytical and research engineering.
G
That all led to me concluding that the jobs I really wanted to do were those that went to people who understood both flying and engineering.
So, I started both trying to get those jobs, and trying to gain both flying and engineering qualifications. I also learned the importance of joining the right professional societies, and contributing to them - or sometimes to projects that were just important to me but didn't pay, this has all helped me a lot.
A couple of decades after I started, I have acquired a fair number of each, and a lot of experience in both. And I keep finding new areas that I want to know more about, so I do. There are enough people prepared to pay for the time of somebody with my combination of skills, that I live well.
I have tended to concentrate on the more analytical end of engineering, rather than the practical "hands on" end. This isn't so much choice, as doing the stuff I'm good at - I'm okay with tools, good in a cockpit, but bloody good with analytical and research engineering.
G
I was taken to the Air Day, 1960's, at Halfpenny Green by my best mate's Dad and as soon as I saw the planes I was smitten! I used to ride my sisters bike there just to sit on the gates at the end of the runway an watch them.
Tried for apprenticeships with BOAC, BEA, BMI and finally joined the RAF as a Mechanic.
Still no qualification apart from CGLI Part 2
...but I do have a Licence now, and a lot of experience in a variety of aviation fields, and I've never been short of a job.
As well as my work I do some consultancy on the side.
Tried for apprenticeships with BOAC, BEA, BMI and finally joined the RAF as a Mechanic.
Still no qualification apart from CGLI Part 2
...but I do have a Licence now, and a lot of experience in a variety of aviation fields, and I've never been short of a job.
As well as my work I do some consultancy on the side.
Army apprentice 1972 to licensed engineer. Never been out of work for more than a week.
Another perpetual student learning every day in the company of some of the finest people on the planet.
Another perpetual student learning every day in the company of some of the finest people on the planet.
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I used to live to the west of MAN..under the Barton special VFR corridor and was thus exposed to many and varied aircraft types at the above, from Woodford and Burtonwood...then came The Observers Book of Aircraft...it was all downhill after that.Recall being "asked" at school if " watching those aircraft was more interesting than listening to me"..daft question and possibly , yes, was the wrong answer..with hindsight.
Thought about Avro's, as was, but a school visit to Chadderton convinced me, in about 0.00001sec that I didn't really want to work in a factory s£$hole like that...went to Halton, survived, and then got to do a lot of stuff not in the recruiting ads..strangely. as it was not "sexy" as they say..but some very interesting and unique engineering c/o MU's various.
Joined the civilian world,. was interogated for my Licence...and got to play with some rather larger types...and the biggest heap of junk ever to fly..ATP...did some ad hoc GA work and also found that gliding was to my livers satisfaction...as well as the flying. Done the odd project management job and now wonder as to modern yoof at times...eg. those things formally known as L/E slats being described as "oars"..and..pushing the rudder pedals makes the aircraft accelerate..."same as car innit"...
There are other occupations I have fancied over the years, but equally, I am glad I chose aviation.
Thought about Avro's, as was, but a school visit to Chadderton convinced me, in about 0.00001sec that I didn't really want to work in a factory s£$hole like that...went to Halton, survived, and then got to do a lot of stuff not in the recruiting ads..strangely. as it was not "sexy" as they say..but some very interesting and unique engineering c/o MU's various.
Joined the civilian world,. was interogated for my Licence...and got to play with some rather larger types...and the biggest heap of junk ever to fly..ATP...did some ad hoc GA work and also found that gliding was to my livers satisfaction...as well as the flying. Done the odd project management job and now wonder as to modern yoof at times...eg. those things formally known as L/E slats being described as "oars"..and..pushing the rudder pedals makes the aircraft accelerate..."same as car innit"...
There are other occupations I have fancied over the years, but equally, I am glad I chose aviation.
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With a hobby interest in mechanics, I was attracted to the Army, fixing helicopters, by a glossy magazine, a recruitment Sergeant who was liberal with the truth and an urge to travel. Fortunately, it worked for me.
Left the Army when the career path they wanted me to follow didn't match what I wanted to do. I self-studied for my licence and was prepared to move about a bit. Work has taken me from the top of Norway to the South Pole and lots of places in between. I've never been out of work and 24 years later I still enjoy it and learn new stuff all the time.
My maintenance skills pay the bills, but joining a couple of professional bodies and continuing aviation engineering related study in my own time has kept me interested.
In my opinion, setting your sights on an MRO or airline is limiting you options and possibly your career. They are continually looking to drive down costs and out-source. It is from this sector of the industry that a lot of the doom and gloom seems to come from.
With a mechanical engineering degree, you have other options that could maybe still fulfil your passion. There's a lot of pretty amazing stuff going on in the aerospace industry that doesn't involve turning around an airliner for it's next sector.
Left the Army when the career path they wanted me to follow didn't match what I wanted to do. I self-studied for my licence and was prepared to move about a bit. Work has taken me from the top of Norway to the South Pole and lots of places in between. I've never been out of work and 24 years later I still enjoy it and learn new stuff all the time.
My maintenance skills pay the bills, but joining a couple of professional bodies and continuing aviation engineering related study in my own time has kept me interested.
In my opinion, setting your sights on an MRO or airline is limiting you options and possibly your career. They are continually looking to drive down costs and out-source. It is from this sector of the industry that a lot of the doom and gloom seems to come from.
With a mechanical engineering degree, you have other options that could maybe still fulfil your passion. There's a lot of pretty amazing stuff going on in the aerospace industry that doesn't involve turning around an airliner for it's next sector.
Last edited by nodrama; 12th Jan 2011 at 08:17.
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Royal Air Force apprenticeship straight out of school. Then lots of night school and private study while working, until I earned my licences and approvals. Later, got an economics degree and moved into management. I guess there's no easy way to break into that first job, you just have to keep trying until you get there. Life's a struggle unless you're born with a silver spoon in your mouth. I wish you Good Luck.
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Hi Darcom,
First : what kind of degree do you have ? University 3 years / 5 years ?
(I'm trying to compare with french educational system)
Secundo : do you have any clear idea of what job you would like to do ?
If you graduate from mechanical engineering, maybe you could consider manufacturers, where plenty of jobs exist. Although getting you away from A/C in operation...
First : what kind of degree do you have ? University 3 years / 5 years ?
(I'm trying to compare with french educational system)
Secundo : do you have any clear idea of what job you would like to do ?
If you graduate from mechanical engineering, maybe you could consider manufacturers, where plenty of jobs exist. Although getting you away from A/C in operation...
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How did you start your career
Left school and started work in a Royal Naval Armament Depot as an Apprentice Explosives Laboratory Technician ( I always wanted to work with things that went bang from around the age of 13!)
The Depot was scheduled for closing, at the age of 16, I was to young to be posted to another Depot - doom and gloom.
My cousin sold me the RAF Apprentice scheme so sat the exams and went to RAF Halton as a u/t Armament Fitter, so I learnt about weapons engineering as well as things that went bang.
24 years later, I left the RAF, but being a glutton for punishment, was commissioned into the RAFVR for a further seven years. Oh boy, the joy of having a 1250 in the wallet again.
The RAF educated me, 5 O levels plus an ONC, no worries. Did loan service with the RAAF and RNZAF. Managed to keep all me fingers intact while on a spell of Bomb Disposal in the Far East and then mega years later a large chunk of a pesky Harrier fell on me while serving in the Fatherland! No justice.
Following RAF/RAFVR service I worked for 10 years self-employed in financial services, 6 years in Security and 11 years as a self-employed gardener. Never unemployed, and despite having a jolly good time, as I grew older, kept an eye on pension plans etc. for the future (very important for youngsters today to get to grips with this.)
No 70 years young, I can't leap tall buildings anymore, but can still manage a bungalow with a following wind. Financially secure, real ale, fine wine, kool jazz and a raft of hobbies and travel keep me and 'er indoors occupied. No worries mate.
Good luck for your future, when you're 65 or whatever it'll be when you retire seems light years away, but careful financial planning now and throughout your working life can ensure a happy retirement then.
Alan Mudge The other half of lpmunroh43
The Depot was scheduled for closing, at the age of 16, I was to young to be posted to another Depot - doom and gloom.
My cousin sold me the RAF Apprentice scheme so sat the exams and went to RAF Halton as a u/t Armament Fitter, so I learnt about weapons engineering as well as things that went bang.
24 years later, I left the RAF, but being a glutton for punishment, was commissioned into the RAFVR for a further seven years. Oh boy, the joy of having a 1250 in the wallet again.
The RAF educated me, 5 O levels plus an ONC, no worries. Did loan service with the RAAF and RNZAF. Managed to keep all me fingers intact while on a spell of Bomb Disposal in the Far East and then mega years later a large chunk of a pesky Harrier fell on me while serving in the Fatherland! No justice.
Following RAF/RAFVR service I worked for 10 years self-employed in financial services, 6 years in Security and 11 years as a self-employed gardener. Never unemployed, and despite having a jolly good time, as I grew older, kept an eye on pension plans etc. for the future (very important for youngsters today to get to grips with this.)
No 70 years young, I can't leap tall buildings anymore, but can still manage a bungalow with a following wind. Financially secure, real ale, fine wine, kool jazz and a raft of hobbies and travel keep me and 'er indoors occupied. No worries mate.
Good luck for your future, when you're 65 or whatever it'll be when you retire seems light years away, but careful financial planning now and throughout your working life can ensure a happy retirement then.
Alan Mudge The other half of lpmunroh43
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i'm an aerosexual and aircraft maintenance tech school was 1/10th the cost of a commercial pilots license
been mostly good since then, 17 years in and i am still managing to pay the bills
been mostly good since then, 17 years in and i am still managing to pay the bills
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As a starry eyed 16 year old apprentice. Those were the days....all changed now!
I still remember my first day on the job....I could not believe the eight hours had gone by so quickly and I was getting paid for it. I would have stayed there for a week if they would have let me.
These days I cant believe a shift takes so long to conclude!!
I still remember my first day on the job....I could not believe the eight hours had gone by so quickly and I was getting paid for it. I would have stayed there for a week if they would have let me.
These days I cant believe a shift takes so long to conclude!!
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A combination of luck & hard work starting as an unpaid work experience kid, through to lowly mech doing a C&G259 trade course during the evening. 6 years after starting, FAA licenced. 7 years after that EASA licenced. Do I still enjoy the work? Yes - I've shined some days and sunk rather deep into it on others... Over time, I also learnt to understand why some LAE's/AMT's choose another career path.
BAe
BAe
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I'm not going to start a new topic for my own question, as mine are quite the same as Darcom's (who has unfortunately not answered back since) :
I would like to know if you know any possibility to work as a maintenance planning engineer, or in quality control maybe, without owning a B1/C license?
I'm sorry this will be a kind of "my life" post, but I would really appreciate some advices.
Ok, let's start:
I'm a student in aircraft maintenance bachelor's degree, that's a university technology diploma (U. of Toulouse/courses provided by professionals from Airbus, Air France,...).
Basically, the program is based on PART66 C modules (although this is not a PART147 training center).
We have courses on technical data (Airnav, TSM, MPD, etc), aviation legislation and maintenance software (AMASIS).
Some of you are certainly wondering what is the purpose of such a training, if you want to work in aviation without proper qualification (license) !
Actually, most of my classmates will work for Airbus or their subcontractors, only a very few in MROs or maybe airlines.
...I wish I'll be part of these few.
Looking at vacancies on MRO and airlines around the world, there is always that "3-5 years experience at a same position (somewhere else, preferably a top international company!)".
So I'm wondering... where could I get this experience from? Where do newbies start? Did I really miss the entry level and should forget about working in any airline, this because I have no license and skydrol experience to start with?
I'm ready to get that answer: Yes, you failed, go back and spend your money on B1 training.
But I would also be really attentive to your advices.
Thank you a lot for reading me and for your answers.
Cheers.
I would like to know if you know any possibility to work as a maintenance planning engineer, or in quality control maybe, without owning a B1/C license?
I'm sorry this will be a kind of "my life" post, but I would really appreciate some advices.
Ok, let's start:I'm a student in aircraft maintenance bachelor's degree, that's a university technology diploma (U. of Toulouse/courses provided by professionals from Airbus, Air France,...).
Basically, the program is based on PART66 C modules (although this is not a PART147 training center).
We have courses on technical data (Airnav, TSM, MPD, etc), aviation legislation and maintenance software (AMASIS).
Some of you are certainly wondering what is the purpose of such a training, if you want to work in aviation without proper qualification (license) !
Actually, most of my classmates will work for Airbus or their subcontractors, only a very few in MROs or maybe airlines.
...I wish I'll be part of these few.
Looking at vacancies on MRO and airlines around the world, there is always that "3-5 years experience at a same position (somewhere else, preferably a top international company!
)".So I'm wondering... where could I get this experience from? Where do newbies start? Did I really miss the entry level and should forget about working in any airline, this because I have no license and skydrol experience to start with?
I'm ready to get that answer: Yes, you failed, go back and spend your money on B1 training.
But I would also be really attentive to your advices.
Thank you a lot for reading me and for your answers.
Cheers.
