Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > Engineers & Technicians
Reload this Page >

Unions For Aircraft Engineers.

Engineers & Technicians In this day and age of increased CRM and safety awareness, a forum for the guys and girls who keep our a/c serviceable.

Unions For Aircraft Engineers.

Old 5th Dec 2010, 11:29
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: CUPBOARD
Posts: 23
Unions For Aircraft Engineers.

This thread is too ascertain what Aircraft Engineers truly think of their own union,if affiliated too one, and have individuals had experience(s) highlighting the strength of their union or weakness .

I have recently joined the ALAE, and understand Prospect represent their members, i consider this too be a good investment for the future as many individuals regard the ALAE too be a profesional body judging from various individuals i have spoken too, but i am fielding this thread too see what you guys/girls think and what your own experiences are especially appertaining too the ALAE, other union experiences also welcome.

ALL views and opinions welcome, (except childish crass ones).

HubNuts is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2020, 10:50
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 442
Just scrolling through the PPRuNe forums and notice this thread raised in 2010.................. 10 years ago and no one has replied except now, me! I wonder with all that is going on why the LAE's in the UK are not getting together more as a force and then I read this chap's thread and none of us replied, it's answered my own question really.

I have been a member of the ALAE in the UK since the day I got my BCAR Licence in the early eighties and continue to pay my subs via Prospect. I wonder what life would be like for us now if we had all joined the ALAE when we became licenced? I am convinced the reason UK pilots earn such nice sums today has lots to with the high number of them being members of BALPA.

I have heard good and bad stories about Prospect but trade unions are not like companies they are run by the membership, steered by the membership and exist for the membership and therefore if a trade union is not doing what it's members want then really you can only blame the membership or in our case those thousands of LAE's in the UK too tight to fund their only true voice in our world by not joining.

HubNuts, thanks for your question!

marvo999 is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2020, 11:59
  #3 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 957
I understand many years ago, Balpa offered to represent engineers but this was declined by the then AUEW along with many engineers having the "us " and "them " mentality

Plus, never forget engineers can and always have been our own worst enemies at times. Overtime and working hours, the infamous now, thankfully, banned "ghoster " being a classical example.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2020, 20:18
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 442
Not sure of all that went on with the BALPA thing many moons ago maybe someone here could enlighten us to the story? I always thought that BALPA pulled out in the end, but I don't think a combined BALPA/ALAE TU would have ever worked, BALPA would have always overrode the interests of the LAE's when push came to shove. I still believe there are enough LAE's in the UK that could mobilise better than we do......
marvo999 is offline  
Old 13th Apr 2020, 22:47
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Anglia
Posts: 1,932
Still a member of ALAE though I think we’ve been forgotten in Prospect. I forgot to vote because I didnt recognise any representation. ALAE had a reputation of not succeeding much but the officials have worked very hard in my limited view, and we would not be here with Licences if it were not for them.
You are right in that LAEs are their own enemy in not forming alliances for working conditions - because they love working in those same working conditions...and the bosses love that too.
Rigga is offline  
Old 18th Apr 2020, 14:54
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: over the hill
Posts: 4
I completely agree with marvo. He has hit the nail on the head, we as engineers are too tight or lazy to be bothered until something happens and lots of screaming and blaming ensues.
I have been a member of ALAE/Prospect for decades including a few years as a rep. I gave up being a rep mostly because of the whinging and sometimes hostility from members and non members none of whom would lift a finger to help or further the cause but where very vocal when they thought that they were being wronged. I'm afraid it showed me how selfish most people are.
I have to say that I came across some truly dedicated people who obviously had more patience tolerance, and belief than I did. I'm still a member and have had a couple of occasions that I was very thankful to be.
jester engineer is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2020, 10:19
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hyperspace
Posts: 635
How and when were Ghosters banned?!

Its about time as it was practices like this that meant that certain LAE's would always look after their pockets first rather than and try and act as a group to improve things......
boeing_eng is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2020, 08:53
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Blackbushe
Age: 70
Posts: 30
It has brought me out of retirement literally. When will you engineers ever learn? If you want to influence anything you need to align under a single banner. It is the way of industrial life.
For those who remember, every attempt during my life time was basically sabotaged by lack of effort or the absolute back stabbing selfishness of the licensed engineer. SLATE, ALAE, Prospect you name it, it didn't succeed.
For every engineer with the balls to do his job properly and refuse to sign off aircraft that are not airworthy, there are 5 who throw integrity to the wind and sign.
You have yourself to blame that the worst option of all, Unite, has a foot in most companies.

The fact that no-one replied to the original question says it all.

I doubt you will ever wake up?

Quite frankly now I am out of it all, the best thing industry could do is get rid of the licence.
ABAT4t2 is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2020, 15:11
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hyperspace
Posts: 635
I've seen it all in the 40 odd years I've been in the industry.......There never has and never will be a level playing field when it come to LAE's. Some will do whatever it takes to "get on" or line their pockets whilst others will try and do the best job they can whilst standing up to management if required. Pilots generally all stick together and sing from the same hymn sheet. The lack of proper defined maximum working hours for Engineers has always been an issue which has been exploited by companies over the years. In my case the reduction in manpower over the last decade or so has been a major issue which companies can easily "fudge" when audits are held or be creative on MOE's etc! Overtime should be voluntary but too many LAE's and companies have relied on it in the past!..... I'm aware of LAE's who have been basically penalised for not doing enough!

Don't get me started on Unite!!!

Not long before I "engxit"....it can't come soon enough!

Last edited by boeing_eng; 26th Apr 2020 at 17:41.
boeing_eng is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2020, 06:36
  #10 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 957
Originally Posted by boeing_eng View Post
How and when were Ghosters banned?!

Its about time as it was practices like this that meant that certain LAE's would always look after their pockets first rather than and try and act as a group to improve things......
As far as I can recall, "ghosters " went out of fashion shall we say sometime in the late 80's, and I could be wrong here with the dates when the CAA decided to let it be known they "weren't happy " with the practice. …..which had taken them a rather long time as we know to arrive at this decision.

I am happy to concur with those who also feel that engineers are, and probably always will be, our own worst enemy when it comes to working hours, unity and the lure of overtime, the latter becoming essential for many who became over reliant on it being available.

To be frank, despite the attempts to provide a united representative body for engineers, I don't think this will ever materialise simply because engineers have an almost "masochistic " wish to be exploited by management who have never been averse to exploiting the divisons that we all know exist. Even more so when managers have come from the same background.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2020, 09:29
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hyperspace
Posts: 635
As far as I can recall, "ghosters " went out of fashion shall we say sometime in the late 80's, and I could be wrong here with the dates when the CAA decided to let it be known they "weren't happy " with the practice. …..which had taken them a rather long time as we know to arrive at this decision.

I'm aware of Ghoster's being worked much more recently so the transport industry opt out from EU Working Time Directive obviously allows this!
boeing_eng is offline  
Old 3rd May 2020, 21:32
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: cardiff
Posts: 528
We had quite good representation in SLAET, then it got absorbed into RAeS, who then decided licensed engineers weren't clever enough for them unless we had a degree.
At same time ALAE were only interested in persons holding type ratings...despite the regulations at the time preventing anyone holding type rating for above 13,610lb MTOW, so had a distinct GA bias.

IMHO neither of these organisations are fit for purpose as Unions.

Ttfn
ivor toolbox is online now  
Old 20th May 2020, 19:05
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 124
Flybe Aviation Services was mainly represented by Prospect Union, I wasn't part of them but heard mixed feeling by those who were, some people say they did good and helped change the culture and sorted issue with management, others felt they did nothing but took money from their paycheck.
airsouthwest is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 12:07
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Blackbushe
Age: 70
Posts: 30
Never ceases to amaze me that people a) still don't understand unions and b) still repeat so much rubbish

@airsouthwest, who are they?
a union is primarily represented by those who work within the company, the employees (union members). They (employees, union members) elect internal representatives and set the agenda, the full time union officials advise with legal advice and support the agenda. So if "they" did nothing at Flybe then it was the internal work force who allowed it.

@ivor toolbox
having formerly been a member of ALAE since almost day one this statement is in my opinion complete nonsense and belongs in the box with many other false claims made over the years, "At same time ALAE were only interested in persons holding type ratings"
humans do tend to blame their own failings on others. Is this the case here or can you offer up proof of your claim?

I go back to my earlier point: When will you engineers ever learn?

ABAT4t2 is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2020, 11:48
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: wales
Posts: 455
Been in ALAE/PROSPECT since 1989. Worth it as it costs nothing being claimed against income tax same and Raes. Only works if everyone sticks together which sadly we don't as a profession !
bvcu is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2020, 17:34
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South West, UK
Posts: 124
I don't need a lecture on how a union works, I am merely repeating the views from across the company. If you don't like listening to other people's views, I would suggest leaving the forum.
airsouthwest is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2020, 20:36
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Delta of Venus
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by airsouthwest View Post
If you don't like listening to other people's views, I would suggest leaving the forum.
Someone that actually understands what an internet forum is about!
Private jet is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2020, 15:25
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 17
When I was thinking about leaving the RAF I was looking around for a professional body that would help me with some recognition of my RAF record, so I joined SLAET. On demob I joined Bristow Helicopters but was told that any Union membership that I might have had would not be recognised by the Company, it did not cause me to reconsider my position.

During my time with Bristow the company went through a tremendous expansion during the 1970ís and 1980ís when a lot of new Pilots were taken on, many were members of BALPA who managed to start a strike. They tried to expand the strike on the airport (fire, air-traffic, baggage handling) but they were a bit heavy handed regarding other ranks (most Pilots were ex RAF). Engineers were having none of it and all the striking pilots were sacked. No Union officials lost their jobs as usual. When I joined RNAY Fleetlands I was multi-licensed, AFSLAET, in fact I had the same letters after my name as the Quality Manager but I could not get beyond Fitter. Our Union Rep sold us down the river and got elected as an MP. ALAE were making vague promises but they could not achieve much. SLAET joined with the RAeS but sank without trace after being asset stripped. Unions tried to get us in General Aviation to join up, but it is a large company thing so we stayed out. We were not lazy, we certainly did not receive large sums of money we just kept on employing a large number of people along with ourselves without interference from foreign bodies ( Iím Alright Jack springs to mind)
dg93 is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2020, 16:33
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England
Posts: 1,285
Originally Posted by dg93 View Post
When I was thinking about leaving the RAF I was looking around for a professional body that would help me with some recognition of my RAF record, so I joined SLAET. On demob I joined Bristow Helicopters but was told that any Union membership that I might have had would not be recognised by the Company, it did not cause me to reconsider my position.

During my time with Bristow the company went through a tremendous expansion during the 1970’s and 1980’s when a lot of new Pilots were taken on, many were members of BALPA who managed to start a strike. They tried to expand the strike on the airport (fire, air-traffic, baggage handling) but they were a bit heavy handed regarding other ranks (most Pilots were ex RAF). Engineers were having none of it and all the striking pilots were sacked. No Union officials lost their jobs as usual. When I joined RNAY Fleetlands I was multi-licensed, AFSLAET, in fact I had the same letters after my name as the Quality Manager but I could not get beyond Fitter. Our Union Rep sold us down the river and got elected as an MP. ALAE were making vague promises but they could not achieve much. SLAET joined with the RAeS but sank without trace after being asset stripped. Unions tried to get us in General Aviation to join up, but it is a large company thing so we stayed out. We were not lazy, we certainly did not receive large sums of money we just kept on employing a large number of people along with ourselves without interference from foreign bodies ( I’m Alright Jack springs to mind)
Getting engineers to agree amongst themselves is an impossibility. Three engineers five different opinions!!!!

Last edited by ericferret; 29th Jun 2020 at 09:45.
ericferret is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 08:50
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Freedom Sound
Posts: 246
Nearly as bad as the legal fraternity then!
esscee is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.