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Unions For Aircraft Engineers.

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Unions For Aircraft Engineers.

Old 1st Jul 2020, 20:39
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Originally Posted by ABAT4t2 View Post
Never ceases to amaze me that people a) still don't understand unions and b) still repeat so much rubbish

@airsouthwest, who are they?
a union is primarily represented by those who work within the company, the employees (union members). They (employees, union members) elect internal representatives and set the agenda, the full time union officials advise with legal advice and support the agenda. So if "they" did nothing at Flybe then it was the internal work force who allowed it.

@ivor toolbox
having formerly been a member of ALAE since almost day one this statement is in my opinion complete nonsense and belongs in the box with many other false claims made over the years, "At same time ALAE were only interested in persons holding type ratings"
humans do tend to blame their own failings on others. Is this the case here or can you offer up proof of your claim?

I go back to my earlier point: When will you engineers ever learn?
I went to a seminar many years ago, organised by the CAA to introduce the prospect of EASA licence introduction as well as us reps from various UK airlines, and maintenance companies, a senior person ( possibly now deceased) from ALAE was there. I was member of ALAE at the time. Anyways, each time one of us airline reps asked a question, regarding BCAR A8-13 privileges and conversion to EASA format, said person would jump up and say "we ( A8-13 certifiers ) weren't licensed so what right did we have to ask questions....the only licensed engineers in the room were those holding type ratings... an lwtr was not a license"

I cancelled my ALAE membership next day in disgust at this lack of inclusion on the part of a senior member of ALAE

Ttfn
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 12:01
  #22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ericferret View Post
Getting engineers to agree amongst themselves is an impossibility. Three engineers five different opinions!!!!
Small point of order here please. You forgot to include one sitting on the fence and another being in complete agreement, whilst being the exact opposite and working out how to gain financially at the expense of everybody else .

@Ivor toolbox ...I recall the " the LWTR vs TR Licence " debate " ( euphemism ! ) carried on for a rather long time in the minds of some. Recall a letter, kindly published in full, in "Flight " from a recently retired QC gronk who, in his own immortal words, opined how he enjoyed "slipping them a crippler " when interviewing LTWR holders. Clearly would have been in his element certifying teradactyl's
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Old 29th Aug 2020, 07:12
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2015
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This little tucked away thread is quite interesting.

@Krystal and Ivor what is the point you are trying make? We don't need licences or everyone should have one free? I genuinely can't find the point in your posts.

@ivor: A senior member of ALAE turns up at a seminar and defends his members position. Isn't that what he is supposed to do? Taken in context of the time (I am guessing somewhat it wasn't just pre EASA, it was possibly pre JAR). Are you aware that the original european proposal was actually called JAR-65 and was completely free of licences? Are you aware that the CAA in the early 1970's trialled an unlicensed system and incidents went through the roof? Personally I prefer higher safety standards.

@krystal: what are you saying, that you are so good you don't need a realty check every now and then or are you an experienced mechanic who believes he should have a licence for free but isn't prepared to work for it?



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Old 29th Aug 2020, 07:15
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2015
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Originally Posted by airsouthwest View Post
If you don't like listening to other people's views, I would suggest leaving the forum.
Originally Posted by Private jet View Post
Someone that actually understands what an internet forum is about!
These sort of posts highlight whats wrong with the internet in my opinion. I think if this was a normal discussion between people in a room there would be much more depth to the conversation.
Internet promotes false outrage, a false belief in actual intelligence levels, short online tempers. Just love "I don't a need a lecture comments". Often made (but not always) by people who actually do need a lecture.

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Old 29th Aug 2020, 08:02
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BCAR Section L View Post
This little tucked away thread is quite interesting.

@Krystal and Ivor what is the point you are trying make? We don't need licences or everyone should have one free? I genuinely can't find the point in your posts.

@ivor: A senior member of ALAE turns up at a seminar and defends his members position. Isn't that what he is supposed to do? Taken in context of the time (I am guessing somewhat it wasn't just pre EASA, it was possibly pre JAR). Are you aware that the original european proposal was actually called JAR-65 and was completely free of licences? Are you aware that the CAA in the early 1970's trialled an unlicensed system and incidents went through the roof? Personally I prefer higher safety standards.

@krystal: what are you saying, that you are so good you don't need a realty check every now and then or are you an experienced mechanic who believes he should have a licence for free but isn't prepared to work for it?
LWTR: Licence Without Type Rating. A holder has satisfied the requirements for the issue of an aircraft maintenance engineer's licence but hasn't a specific type rating. The basic licence wasn't given away in a cornflake packet as you know; it was tougher than any type exam I've sat because the questions could come from anywhere in CAIPs.
When I held a new BCAR LWTR in 1986 it was common practice for CRS approvals to be issued to competent non-type-rated licenced engineers by the QC department.
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Old 30th Aug 2020, 17:54
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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What is of concern to me, amongst many things EASA, is the way in which Cat A engineers are given more and more approvals stretching the boundaries of their privileges, not so noticeable in the UK but on mainland Europe some operators are taking the mick. Back in the early days of JAR66 the ALAE along with AEI reluctantly accepted the idea of a Cat A as a compromise, if they hadn't the licence was gone and it would be Company Approvals only. We need to challenge the Cat A privileges issue where ever we see it going wrong in our workplaces. I think the Cat A is not such a bad thing so long as it is kept under control, most of the Cat A's at my Company are studying for their B licences and the Cat A experience they are getting is doing no harm.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 05:58
  #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by stevef View Post
LWTR: Licence Without Type Rating. A holder has satisfied the requirements for the issue of an aircraft maintenance engineer's licence but hasn't a specific type rating. The basic licence wasn't given away in a cornflake packet as you know; it was tougher than any type exam I've sat because the questions could come from anywhere in CAIPs.
When I held a new BCAR LWTR in 1986 it was common practice for CRS approvals to be issued to competent non-type-rated licenced engineers by the QC department.
"@krystal: what are you saying, that you are so good you don't need a realty check every now and then or are you an experienced mechanic who believes he should have a licence for free but isn't prepared to work for it?"

I've included the quote above because , as steve f correctly states, gaining the initial LWTR was far from simply taking the written exam, turning up to answer a few questions, then going home and waiting for the postman to deliver a package. I am at a loss therefore as to how, and why, you have the impression I didn't have to work for it.

If it helps. not unexpectedly with the surveyor concerned who had a long standing reputation and open dislike of ex RAF / charter airline engineers, I failed at my first attempt based on two, small, very small, paragraphs in the electrical section of CAIP's. Frankly, they weren't what you would call prominent or pertinent to A & C engineers. Six months later, different surveyor ....started off very well, then he came to his pet subject.....aerodynamics . Deeper and deeper he went but I do have a vague idea about such so was able to answer satisfactorily .......I passed. Turned out he came top of his year at Loughborough in ?..aerodynamics. Nice bloke actually. Knew how to ask questions without intimidation .

The OP for this thread raised the issue of why engineers have never, and as has been explained, never will be united as an entity. Hence the controversy that arose in the minds of some between the holders of a T/R Licence and those of us who gained the LTWR and company CRS thereafter.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 10:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
"@krystal: what are you saying, that you are so good you don't need a realty check every now and then or are you an experienced mechanic who believes he should have a licence for free but isn't prepared to work for it?"

I've included the quote above because , as steve f correctly states, gaining the initial LWTR was far from simply taking the written exam, turning up to answer a few questions, then going home and waiting for the postman to deliver a package. I am at a loss therefore as to how, and why, you have the impression I didn't have to work for it.

If it helps. not unexpectedly with the surveyor concerned who had a long standing reputation and open dislike of ex RAF / charter airline engineers, I failed at my first attempt based on two, small, very small, paragraphs in the electrical section of CAIP's. Frankly, they weren't what you would call prominent or pertinent to A & C engineers. Six months later, different surveyor ....started off very well, then he came to his pet subject.....aerodynamics . Deeper and deeper he went but I do have a vague idea about such so was able to answer satisfactorily .......I passed. Turned out he came top of his year at Loughborough in ?..aerodynamics. Nice bloke actually. Knew how to ask questions without intimidation .

The OP for this thread raised the issue of why engineers have never, and as has been explained, never will be united as an entity. Hence the controversy that arose in the minds of some between the holders of a T/R Licence and those of us who gained the LTWR and company CRS thereafter.
I took my first CAA LWTR exam (A&C Turbine Helicopters) at Southall College of Technology in 1989 completing 150 vote-for-joe questions (with negative marking for incorrect answers) and four written questions. The pass mark was 75% (90% with negative marks)

Having passed that, I was called for my CAA interview at the old Heathrow office. The surveyor marched me down into a room in the cellar where I sat at a desk with a pencil and paper on it facing the surveyor, a blank wall and a tall, grey steel locker. The "interview" lasted 4 hours, with no rests, during which the guy literally went through a copy of the Section L for helicopters (which included supersonic intakes and exhausts) and I had to draw and calculate electrical circuits and draw control system diagrams to show my understanding of each subject as they were asked. On leaving the room I sheepishly asked how I'd done - "You'll do" he said. A heavy envelope landed in my hallway some 6 weeks later.

After that, I did another three CAA LWTRs and subsequent interviews - the last interview (Large Aircraft) being about 20 minutes (with a coffee) I am now a B1.1, B1.2 and B1.3 licensed QAM for parts 21J, 21G, M and 145. It is my job to make sure that the guys and galls we employ are "competent"...and I do.

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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 17:43
  #29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Rigga View Post
I took my first CAA LWTR exam (A&C Turbine Helicopters) at Southall College of Technology in 1989 completing 150 vote-for-joe questions (with negative marking for incorrect answers) and four written questions. The pass mark was 75% (90% with negative marks)

Having passed that, I was called for my CAA interview at the old Heathrow office. The surveyor marched me down into a room in the cellar where I sat at a desk with a pencil and paper on it facing the surveyor, a blank wall and a tall, grey steel locker. The "interview" lasted 4 hours, with no rests, during which the guy literally went through a copy of the Section L for helicopters (which included supersonic intakes and exhausts) and I had to draw and calculate electrical circuits and draw control system diagrams to show my understanding of each subject as they were asked. On leaving the room I sheepishly asked how I'd done - "You'll do" he said. A heavy envelope landed in my hallway some 6 weeks later.

After that, I did another three CAA LWTRs and subsequent interviews - the last interview (Large Aircraft) being about 20 minutes (with a coffee) I am now a B1.1, B1.2 and B1.3 licensed QAM for parts 21J, 21G, M and 145. It is my job to make sure that the guys and galls we employ are "competent"...and I do.
I'm sure there was an, obviously, unwritten rule that the surveyors would make the initial issue of an LWTR as difficult as possible and for obvious reasons. Thereafter, progressively less so. I was asked, as were many others, to draw various diagrams from CAIP's which was "fun " and to complete circuits whilst explaining what the various components did. Interestingly, there was very little on AGS standards.

Ah, the infamous negative marking. ! I am intrigued however as to why, with your background, you didn't get a dispensation for " the vote for Joe " questions. There was mandatory Air Leg, four written and for me 60 of the latter. However, I'm also aware people of similar experience didn't get the dispensation for reasons that were never really made clear to them
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 17:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BCAR Section L View Post

@ivor: A senior member of ALAE turns up at a seminar and defends his members position. Isn't that what he is supposed to do? Taken in context of the time (I am guessing somewhat it wasn't just pre EASA, it was possibly pre JAR). Are you aware that the original european proposal was actually called JAR-65 and was completely free of licences? Are you aware that the CAA in the early 1970's trialled an unlicensed system and incidents went through the roof? Personally I prefer higher safety standards.
But, I was a member of ALAE ( as well as SLAET at the time) so.... it was my interests too that he should have been defending. It was pre JAR btw as you rightly surmise ; he was trying to argue that we A8-13 certifiers were less safe , some of us pointed out we were members, only to be ignored.

Ttfn
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Old 19th Sep 2020, 17:57
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Originally Posted by BCAR Section L View Post

@ivor: A senior member of ALAE turns up at a seminar and defends his members position. Isn't that what he is supposed to do? Taken in context of the time (I am guessing somewhat it wasn't just pre EASA, it was possibly pre JAR). Are you aware that the original european proposal was actually called JAR-65 and was completely free of licences? Are you aware that the CAA in the early 1970's trialled an unlicensed system and incidents went through the roof? Personally I prefer higher safety standards.
But, I was a member of ALAE ( as well as SLAET at the time) so.... it was my interests too that he should have been defending. It was pre JAR btw as you rightly surmise ; he was trying to argue that we A8-13 certifiers were less safe , some of us pointed out we were members, only to be ignored.

Ttfn

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Old 19th Sep 2020, 18:23
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post

Ah, the infamous negative marking. ! I am intrigued however as to why, with your background, you didn't get a dispensation for " the vote for Joe " questions. There was mandatory Air Leg, four written and for me 60 of the latter. However, I'm also aware people of similar experience didn't get the dispensation for reasons that were never really made clear to them
Likewise for me, ex RAF rigger, 8 essays (4 trade, 4 legislation) plus the infamous multi choice . I was given to believe at the time that it depended on what you had spent part of the last 2 years of your service working on, whether you qualified for the reduced multi choice, you had to have worked on live aircraft, and preferably one with a civil equivalent.

I was lucky, was able to take a part time work experience job with a locally based operator, working on G reg aeroplanes (their chief engineer was one of my neighbours)

After the written exams there was the wait for the letter....either telling you that you had failed...or inviting you to apply for the oral board. 4 or 5 hours in an office at Gatwick, the final question I had was " what does an engineer do when he first receives his new licence" ; which I answered, but my brain was too addled by this time to work out it was a way of letting me know I'd done OK.

Ttfn




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