How do I become a Licenced Aircraft Engineer/Airworthiness Engineer?
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How do I become a Licenced Aircraft Engineer/Airworthiness Engineer?
I am currently working in a large Defence Contractor as an Airworthiness Engineer that has it's own MAOS and DAOS approval. This means that there is no requirement to Licence any of the Engineers here. 
Essentially, what would I have to do to become a Licenced Airworthiness Engineer? How much would it cost and how would I source the necessary training etc? I have also passed the first eight Airline Transport Pilot's Exams and hold a Private Pilot's Licence - would any credit be received from these qualifications other than perhaps making the exams a bit easier? Any advice or insights would be greatly appreciated as I don't know where to start!
Thanks,
Poose
Essentially, what would I have to do to become a Licenced Airworthiness Engineer? How much would it cost and how would I source the necessary training etc? I have also passed the first eight Airline Transport Pilot's Exams and hold a Private Pilot's Licence - would any credit be received from these qualifications other than perhaps making the exams a bit easier? Any advice or insights would be greatly appreciated as I don't know where to start!
Thanks,
Poose
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I never heard of the term.. what do you mean Licensed Airworthiness Engineer ? You mean an Airline QA engineer? those are the ones who ensure everything conforms to airworthiness regulations similar to working for the CAA..
or you mean you want to be a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer ? Those are the ones who do the actual job..
Anyway, the two starts with the same route, but QA usually requires more exeperience.. so Basically you need an EASA 66 license.. there are many threads here on how to get one..
The pilot exams doesn't help in engineering careers to my knowledge unless you get a job at Safety.. when the two combined might make your CV look good..
I hope that helps.. and you may wanna clarify more on what you do and what exactly do you want if you want further help..
regards,
or you mean you want to be a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer ? Those are the ones who do the actual job..
Anyway, the two starts with the same route, but QA usually requires more exeperience.. so Basically you need an EASA 66 license.. there are many threads here on how to get one..
The pilot exams doesn't help in engineering careers to my knowledge unless you get a job at Safety.. when the two combined might make your CV look good..
I hope that helps.. and you may wanna clarify more on what you do and what exactly do you want if you want further help..
regards,
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QA itself has sub departments and in the technical QA most of the guys should be well qualified and experienced licensed engineers.. at least that's the case wherever I worked before.. Cause these are the guys who examine engineers for type approvals, and the same guys who audit stations and review captains voyage reports.. and even suspend engineers approvals when they screw up.. I don't think any clerk can do these things!
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dream on mate, in commercial aviation these days fewer and fewer licensed enginers are employed in a QA role ,its far cheaper to employ clerks, and they dont examine engineers for type approvals they merely check the paperwork presented is iaw company procedures, etc the idea of a licensed engineer being "examined "by your average QA bod /bodess is laughable.
I work for one of the UK,s largest airlines and to my knowledge not a single licensed engineer is employed in a QA role ,mainly due to fact your average QA surveyor is paid a lot less than a LAE
I work for one of the UK,s largest airlines and to my knowledge not a single licensed engineer is employed in a QA role ,mainly due to fact your average QA surveyor is paid a lot less than a LAE
Poose,
"I am currently working in a large Defence Contractor as an Airworthiness Engineer that has it's own MAOS and DAOS approval. This means that there is no requirement to Licence any of the Engineers here."
My understanding of a "Large Defense Contractor" Airworthiness Engineer is a "certification engineer" collating all the necessary documentation prior to aircraft leaving manufacture. Is that right?
"Airworthiness Engineers" are normally LAEs that opt for an office job (I used to be an airworthiness surveyor)
An airline's Airworthiness Engineer does a different job to a manufacurer's, often encompassing:
Assessment and publication of incomming technical instructions and advice. AD's SB's SIs SLs etc
Assessment and dissemination of changes to manuals and regulations
Assessment of company modifications and requirements and writing instructions for their completion
Repair approvals, instructions and compliance records
Aircraft airworthiness reviews, recommendations and renewals.
Document control
Technical Record control
AMP and reliability programmes
An Airline's "Airworthiness Engineer" need not be licenced, if he is not licenced, he can do all of the tasks required but then a Licenced engineer has to sign off some of the more formal work done.
Essentially, what would I have to do to become a Licenced Airworthiness Engineer? How much would it cost and how would I source the necessary training etc? I have also passed the first eight Airline Transport Pilot's Exams and hold a Private Pilot's Licence - would any credit be received from these qualifications other than perhaps making the exams a bit easier? Any advice or insights would be greatly appreciated as I don't know where to start!
As well as the academics, Licences are a vocational thing - you need to get relevant experience for the type of Licence you seek (B1.1, B1.2, B2, Etc) I'm not sure you would receive anything but some maths for ATPL licences?
Search for ELGD on the CAA website: The UK Civil Aviation Authority
Cost depends on how you want to get your licences - could be as little as £3K for a postal course, plus module exams.
Rigga
edited bit:
I am a QAM who examines all tech staff entering this company - and I get about as much as a Senior LAE on Walt's large airline.
"I am currently working in a large Defence Contractor as an Airworthiness Engineer that has it's own MAOS and DAOS approval. This means that there is no requirement to Licence any of the Engineers here."
My understanding of a "Large Defense Contractor" Airworthiness Engineer is a "certification engineer" collating all the necessary documentation prior to aircraft leaving manufacture. Is that right?
"Airworthiness Engineers" are normally LAEs that opt for an office job (I used to be an airworthiness surveyor)
An airline's Airworthiness Engineer does a different job to a manufacurer's, often encompassing:
Assessment and publication of incomming technical instructions and advice. AD's SB's SIs SLs etc
Assessment and dissemination of changes to manuals and regulations
Assessment of company modifications and requirements and writing instructions for their completion
Repair approvals, instructions and compliance records
Aircraft airworthiness reviews, recommendations and renewals.
Document control
Technical Record control
AMP and reliability programmes
An Airline's "Airworthiness Engineer" need not be licenced, if he is not licenced, he can do all of the tasks required but then a Licenced engineer has to sign off some of the more formal work done.
Essentially, what would I have to do to become a Licenced Airworthiness Engineer? How much would it cost and how would I source the necessary training etc? I have also passed the first eight Airline Transport Pilot's Exams and hold a Private Pilot's Licence - would any credit be received from these qualifications other than perhaps making the exams a bit easier? Any advice or insights would be greatly appreciated as I don't know where to start!
As well as the academics, Licences are a vocational thing - you need to get relevant experience for the type of Licence you seek (B1.1, B1.2, B2, Etc) I'm not sure you would receive anything but some maths for ATPL licences?
Search for ELGD on the CAA website: The UK Civil Aviation Authority
Cost depends on how you want to get your licences - could be as little as £3K for a postal course, plus module exams.
Rigga
edited bit:
I am a QAM who examines all tech staff entering this company - and I get about as much as a Senior LAE on Walt's large airline.
There is no such thing in the UK or Europe as a licenced airworthiness engineer.
The term isn't used elsewhere that I'm aware of, but the concept would describe a DER - Designated Engineering Representative in FAAland. It's very useful there, but of absolutely no value here.
The nearest equivalent in JAAland, or the UK defence industry is the concept of a "design signatory" - there is no formal qualification as such, although pretty much anybody in this role will have either a good engineering degree, or a maintenance licence +plus shedloads of experience. A design signatory is somebody who has authority to sign for certain functions within their employer's approvals.
Becoming a design signatory within a company comes with a senior engineering job, and isn't a separate licence. The overseeing organisation that gives this status will do so on recommendation of the company, and will take into account the total experience of the person being put forward. ATPL passes and flying experience will certainly count towards that, but are no substitute for a top-notch combination of engineering experience and technical/academic qualifications in engineering.
I've been design signatory for several CAA approved companies, although don't currently work in that capacity. It leads to a deeply suspicious nature and obsessive attention to detail.
If you've not done so already, what you probably should do in your current position is pursue CEng or IEng status through the RAeS, which will carry a lot of weight in pursuing such senior positions.
G
The term isn't used elsewhere that I'm aware of, but the concept would describe a DER - Designated Engineering Representative in FAAland. It's very useful there, but of absolutely no value here.
The nearest equivalent in JAAland, or the UK defence industry is the concept of a "design signatory" - there is no formal qualification as such, although pretty much anybody in this role will have either a good engineering degree, or a maintenance licence +plus shedloads of experience. A design signatory is somebody who has authority to sign for certain functions within their employer's approvals.
Becoming a design signatory within a company comes with a senior engineering job, and isn't a separate licence. The overseeing organisation that gives this status will do so on recommendation of the company, and will take into account the total experience of the person being put forward. ATPL passes and flying experience will certainly count towards that, but are no substitute for a top-notch combination of engineering experience and technical/academic qualifications in engineering.
I've been design signatory for several CAA approved companies, although don't currently work in that capacity. It leads to a deeply suspicious nature and obsessive attention to detail.
If you've not done so already, what you probably should do in your current position is pursue CEng or IEng status through the RAeS, which will carry a lot of weight in pursuing such senior positions.
G
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Likewise, Genghis' comments apply in Oz.
It leads to a deeply suspicious nature and obsessive attention to detail.
True. Something to do with liability concerns as much as anything to do with professional morality
.. pursue CEng or IEng status through the RAeS, which will carry a lot of weight in pursuing such senior positions.
Less so in Oz although most of us hold CEng and CPEng accreditation (or eligibility) in the aircraft side of the engineering game.
It leads to a deeply suspicious nature and obsessive attention to detail.
True. Something to do with liability concerns as much as anything to do with professional morality
.. pursue CEng or IEng status through the RAeS, which will carry a lot of weight in pursuing such senior positions.
Less so in Oz although most of us hold CEng and CPEng accreditation (or eligibility) in the aircraft side of the engineering game.
I re-state that for two years I was an Airworthiness Surveyor for a well known UK Charter Airline, doing the duties I quoted and my team had licenced and unlicenced staff.
Ghengis appears to know little of Part M Continued Airworthiness operations in UK.
Ghengis appears to know little of Part M Continued Airworthiness operations in UK.
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QA staff are normally clerks these days, i dont know of any QA staff who are qualified licensed engineers
If you look at Part M, the lack of licence or other acceptable qualification can be alleviated by 10 years experience rather than the 5 associated with having a licence etc (lower for non-CAT, non-large and <2730kg).
There are in any case many licenced / chartered / incorporated Engineers doing airworthiness work, but that doesn't create a licence for an airworthiness engineer, which doesn't exist.
But yes, I know a great deal more about initial airworthiness investigations than I do about continued airworthiness inspections; that said I do have a nodding acquaintance with the latter.
G
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If the OP is asking about Continuing Airworthiness then there is no licensing as such, however M.A.707 lays out the qualifications for Airworthiness Review staff. It is certainly possible for a non LAME to become an ARC signatory but the experience would have to be civil based, ie not military types.
Walterthesofty
dream on mate, in commercial aviation these days fewer and fewer licensed enginers are employed in a QA role ,its far cheaper to employ clerks, and they dont examine engineers for type approvals they merely check the paperwork presented is iaw company procedures, etc the idea of a licensed engineer being "examined "by your average QA bod /bodess is laughable.
I work for one of the UK,s largest airlines and to my knowledge not a single licensed engineer is employed in a QA role ,mainly due to fact your average QA surveyor is paid a lot less than a LAE
I work for one of the UK,s largest airlines and to my knowledge not a single licensed engineer is employed in a QA role ,mainly due to fact your average QA surveyor is paid a lot less than a LAE
I also work for one of the Uk's largest airlines - at LHR. All the QE's in our pt 145 group are licensed, including our manager, and we still examine engineers prior to granting company approvals.
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BA have had a couple of terrible maintenance oversights (757 wing panels, 777 fuel leak to name the worst) but have a reputation for quality maintenance rather than a reputation based on a couple of mistakes.
I think is false to suggest that BA is known primarily for bad maintenance within the industry as this is clearly not the case.
Going back on topic , our QA's are a mix of Licenced and non Licenced staff. As Genghis says, there is no licence as such for a QE - just helps if they've done that role to appreciate the different aspects of the trade.
I've no experience in the design/production side of things but i'm lead to believe there is no licence QE qualification in that field either.
I think is false to suggest that BA is known primarily for bad maintenance within the industry as this is clearly not the case.
Going back on topic , our QA's are a mix of Licenced and non Licenced staff. As Genghis says, there is no licence as such for a QE - just helps if they've done that role to appreciate the different aspects of the trade.
I've no experience in the design/production side of things but i'm lead to believe there is no licence QE qualification in that field either.
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And what do you examime them on exactly they have passed a type course the CAA have endorsed there licence with the type rating so what further examinations are needed? ,please dont tell me some desk bound QA type who wont have been near a aircraft in anger in years is going to give them a technical examination
When I first became a CAA design signatory, I had a panel interview at the Belgrano with three people who very definitely knew their stuff technically.
Mind you, two are now retired and the third is dead.
G
Mind you, two are now retired and the third is dead.
G
Many company QA systems check, and confirm by examination, that the new mechanics and engineers know how to use the company's systems and are familiar with how the company wants the new guys to do their work, and that the company is getting what it pays for.
This is because all are working on the company's approval - not on their own Licences. And the company has to show "Competency" as well as qualification (your licence)
I'll descibe my company's system
When the guy/girl has shown that they understand what is required of them and how they should conduct themselves, they get approved to work and a company Stamp/Number. This is also checked every two years for approval renewals through a small simplified exam.
All exams are "open book" and not time-bound. The pass mark is very high as the applicant is encouraged to go and find the answer if they don't know it.
Yes, this desk-bound QA type also has approvals and does Technical (competency) assessments of all engineers to allow approvals. And sometimes QA reject engineers approval applications due to a (quantified) lack of knowledge for the levels requested.
While there is no "Licence" required for QA, (in manufacturing, design or maintenance) is is generally accepted practice to employ QA personnel with relevant experience in the field in which they will audit. This means that some of the QA staff in your areas aren't necesasrily "Licenced" nor do they need to be - but they may be extremely experienced in their field and may share some duties which do not need to be reserved for any particular "trade". In airlines, this experience may range from assessing Hostie's duties to ticketing and baggage handling.
The CAA expect QA staff to be QA qualified and competent too - so QA staff go on QA courses as well as courses for their specialist knowledge.
Don't forget, Walt, that many "QA types" are Poachers-cum-Gamekeepers. We know most of the mistakes and many of the 'tricks' too. And we are likely to have made/done them before you did.
This is because all are working on the company's approval - not on their own Licences. And the company has to show "Competency" as well as qualification (your licence)
I'll descibe my company's system
When the guy/girl has shown that they understand what is required of them and how they should conduct themselves, they get approved to work and a company Stamp/Number. This is also checked every two years for approval renewals through a small simplified exam.
All exams are "open book" and not time-bound. The pass mark is very high as the applicant is encouraged to go and find the answer if they don't know it.
Yes, this desk-bound QA type also has approvals and does Technical (competency) assessments of all engineers to allow approvals. And sometimes QA reject engineers approval applications due to a (quantified) lack of knowledge for the levels requested.
While there is no "Licence" required for QA, (in manufacturing, design or maintenance) is is generally accepted practice to employ QA personnel with relevant experience in the field in which they will audit. This means that some of the QA staff in your areas aren't necesasrily "Licenced" nor do they need to be - but they may be extremely experienced in their field and may share some duties which do not need to be reserved for any particular "trade". In airlines, this experience may range from assessing Hostie's duties to ticketing and baggage handling.
The CAA expect QA staff to be QA qualified and competent too - so QA staff go on QA courses as well as courses for their specialist knowledge.
Don't forget, Walt, that many "QA types" are Poachers-cum-Gamekeepers. We know most of the mistakes and many of the 'tricks' too. And we are likely to have made/done them before you did.
