Pilots Attitude To Engineering
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Pilots Attitude To Engineering
Having spent a long time working with flight deck, I have worked with people who can only be described as true professionals and also people who viewed engineers as a mere' oily rag'( actual comment!!)
I dont want this to turn into a slagging match but I am interested in how much pilots actually know about how engineering is set up and the various levels of qualifications involved.
Once again please only post respectful and useful comments.
I dont want this to turn into a slagging match but I am interested in how much pilots actually know about how engineering is set up and the various levels of qualifications involved.
Once again please only post respectful and useful comments.
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3 years or 5 years working on aircraft while keeping a logbook of all work experience gained.
While doing that 14-16 exams depending what they want to work on.
After that a "type rating" on the airframes they work on.
As a pilot it does cut both ways with the attitude. Some engineers reckon you don't have a bloody clue and most faults are due to something the crew are doing. Will never believe any data fed back about none normal engine indications. Although mobile phones with video have aided the cause in that respect.
Others as you say are true professionals where everyone works towards a common goal. A matter of procedure and education is a two way thing and problems are discussed, questions asked and answered. Mutual respect is the way forward.
In fact an Engineer got me my current job as a Captain.
While doing that 14-16 exams depending what they want to work on.
After that a "type rating" on the airframes they work on.
As a pilot it does cut both ways with the attitude. Some engineers reckon you don't have a bloody clue and most faults are due to something the crew are doing. Will never believe any data fed back about none normal engine indications. Although mobile phones with video have aided the cause in that respect.
Others as you say are true professionals where everyone works towards a common goal. A matter of procedure and education is a two way thing and problems are discussed, questions asked and answered. Mutual respect is the way forward.
In fact an Engineer got me my current job as a Captain.
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Mad Jock - 100% correct. The Engineer that slags Pilots is his own worst enemy. Likewise, Pilots.
Aviation IS a team game and if you are a stand alone Prima Donna, in any field of aviation, your peers will have subtle and not so subtle ways, of bring you back to earth.
Aviation IS a team game and if you are a stand alone Prima Donna, in any field of aviation, your peers will have subtle and not so subtle ways, of bring you back to earth.
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I once encountered a captain who would only address a ground engineer through his flight engineer. On the other hand I believe he wouldn't allow the co-pilot to speak directly to the navigator, but to go through him. I think he hadn't fathomed out how the intercom worked after they had taken away his speaking tube 
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Never had a problem with flight crew. I respect their concerns, they respect my conclusions.
Without a two way dialogue, defects can not be properly diagnosed and rectified. I say this from line and base experience.
Without a two way dialogue, defects can not be properly diagnosed and rectified. I say this from line and base experience.
To echo the sentiments above, if crew take the time to give a detailed verbal debrief in addition to the log entry for a defect then in effect they are making our lives easier when it comes to rectifying the fault - I was mortified to see a colleague dismiss a crew as being drama queens in a flippant manner to their faces (Tested satis - I think you know him and share the same opinion of him as me...)
This kind of behaviour is what can give us a bad reputation but I'm happy to say is rare on both sides of the fence, In my relatively short career I have not come across a disrespectful attitude from crew,most acknowledge what we do,how we do it and I have very rarely left the flightdeck without a handshake and cheerio from Captain and F.O.
What does get to me is the sharp decline in tea offered by cabin crew nowadays.......
This kind of behaviour is what can give us a bad reputation but I'm happy to say is rare on both sides of the fence, In my relatively short career I have not come across a disrespectful attitude from crew,most acknowledge what we do,how we do it and I have very rarely left the flightdeck without a handshake and cheerio from Captain and F.O.
What does get to me is the sharp decline in tea offered by cabin crew nowadays.......
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Definately a mutual respect thing...
Mutual respect for each other is the answer. Let's face it, we all (well, most of us) got into this game because of our passion for all things aeronautical, so we should be off to a good start in forming a great relationship.
Some of my fondest memories of working with pilots was my time in the air force. A young boggy pilot who was acting all up himself was usually bought down to earth fairly smartly by the senior pilots and vice versa for smart a*@ engineers. Yeh sure you do get the exceptions on both sides of the fence but that always makes for a good bitching session when all the good guys are sitting around having a beer
I love talking to pilots about their workplace and I find that they usually show and interest in ours... we do very different jobs, but do them to achieve the same result, just ask Orville and Wilbur Wright
Some of my fondest memories of working with pilots was my time in the air force. A young boggy pilot who was acting all up himself was usually bought down to earth fairly smartly by the senior pilots and vice versa for smart a*@ engineers. Yeh sure you do get the exceptions on both sides of the fence but that always makes for a good bitching session when all the good guys are sitting around having a beer
I love talking to pilots about their workplace and I find that they usually show and interest in ours... we do very different jobs, but do them to achieve the same result, just ask Orville and Wilbur Wright
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In over 30 years in the Industry I can say I can count on one hand (and have a few fingers left!) at the amount of Pilots(F/Es) that I consider to have a bad attitude to Engineers, probably about the same for the other way round also.
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Women Car Drivers
I attended a pilot get together at an airline I worked for a number of years ago - I was there with by boss the General Manager of Engineering - he was asked to make a presentation about Engineering in general. He opened up his presentation with the following statement:
"You pilots are like women car drivers - you know how to drive - but you havn't a clue what goes on under the bonnet"
I winced but realised he was joking - I think!
bizdev
"You pilots are like women car drivers - you know how to drive - but you havn't a clue what goes on under the bonnet"
I winced but realised he was joking - I think!
bizdev
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Banter
Just because there is mutial respect doesn't mean that banter is banned.
The comment above I certainly wouldn't have taken offense to and I doudt any of my female collegues would either, in fact if think the majority of them would agree that under car bonnets are for boys. I certainly don't see them hold back using playing with hair or fluttering of eyes when thier car batteries are dead after being a way for a week. And engineers are a sucker for it.
And an odd comment to an Avionics engineer asking where his A&P engineer minder is to drill out all the rounded screw heads is always taken in the manner it was intended.
PS Do they not train avionics engineers to use the correct screw driver for the job? Or is it as I presume BnQ don't sell multi head screw drivers with aircraft fittings.
The comment above I certainly wouldn't have taken offense to and I doudt any of my female collegues would either, in fact if think the majority of them would agree that under car bonnets are for boys. I certainly don't see them hold back using playing with hair or fluttering of eyes when thier car batteries are dead after being a way for a week. And engineers are a sucker for it.
And an odd comment to an Avionics engineer asking where his A&P engineer minder is to drill out all the rounded screw heads is always taken in the manner it was intended.
PS Do they not train avionics engineers to use the correct screw driver for the job? Or is it as I presume BnQ don't sell multi head screw drivers with aircraft fittings.
As mentioned before, Pilots and engineers need each other, whether they like it or not. One is no good without the other.
In the years I have worked in aviation, most pilots/engineers respect each other, some banter goes on, bit most I have encountered are harmless fun.
ie Problem with the Seat to Stick Interface or There a short between the headset.
As you can guess, my back ground is engineering.
In the years I have worked in aviation, most pilots/engineers respect each other, some banter goes on, bit most I have encountered are harmless fun.
ie Problem with the Seat to Stick Interface or There a short between the headset.
As you can guess, my back ground is engineering.
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Engineers hold my highest respect for the experience they bring, the hard work they put in and the ability to keep some old crates air worthy.
What makes me laugh the hardest is when an Engineer comes up and tells me that something is broken/worn beyond limits. Shows me the reference in the aircraft manual and explains that it will take time to repair/replace. Then, when I relay all this qualified technical information back to the flight Operations department, you know the ones, all those highly qualified technical people, they tell me 'that's all understood, but, if you're happy to take it we can one flight only it!'
Gawd Luv Em!
Best technical description of a fault I have ever had from an engineer was when a rotor blade lock pin on an S61 wouldn't engage. There was 30 seconds of frantic heavy hammering followed by the technical appraisal of the situation:
'The F**k'in f**kers f**ked.'
Had to laugh, summed it up beautifully!
Have fun, look forward to making you a hot cuppa in the galley.
What makes me laugh the hardest is when an Engineer comes up and tells me that something is broken/worn beyond limits. Shows me the reference in the aircraft manual and explains that it will take time to repair/replace. Then, when I relay all this qualified technical information back to the flight Operations department, you know the ones, all those highly qualified technical people, they tell me 'that's all understood, but, if you're happy to take it we can one flight only it!'
Gawd Luv Em!
Best technical description of a fault I have ever had from an engineer was when a rotor blade lock pin on an S61 wouldn't engage. There was 30 seconds of frantic heavy hammering followed by the technical appraisal of the situation:
'The F**k'in f**kers f**ked.'
Had to laugh, summed it up beautifully!
Have fun, look forward to making you a hot cuppa in the galley.
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Well, looks to me your Flight Ops department just looked for a way out in the legislation to bring the vehicle home, which is allowed in some cases. In many cases, it is part of their work. Some have to fly them home "ferry". In other cases, some just don't want to spend the company's money sending a team to solve it. Sad, but true. The first engineer, however is just doing things by the book. Shouldn't it always be like that?
Have to agree with "keepitup".
What's wrong with an avionics guy planting "helicoils" or rivets, isn't it part of their basic training? Seen that, been there... Yet, that doesn't make him a B1...
(Hope I understood all correctly)
Have to agree with "keepitup".
What's wrong with an avionics guy planting "helicoils" or rivets, isn't it part of their basic training? Seen that, been there... Yet, that doesn't make him a B1...
(Hope I understood all correctly)
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I respect engineers as a group and admire the work they do.
Even if I felt it necessary I would never be rude or condescending to people handling my food. The same with engineers, as they may do nasty things in retaliation!
One or two do require special handling and are able to test ones man management skills to the limit!
Even if I felt it necessary I would never be rude or condescending to people handling my food. The same with engineers, as they may do nasty things in retaliation!
One or two do require special handling and are able to test ones man management skills to the limit!
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 24th Nov 2009 at 06:31.
What's wrong with an avionics guy planting "helicoils" or rivets, isn't it part of their basic training?
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When you go to basic Training (before type training and before you start to work), you get around 150 hours on the subject. At least, you did some 20 years ago. It may not be the case nowadays, but most of us in the forum have some years experience, such years go before 2042/2003.
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Most people working in aviation have the basic concept that teamwork is a given. If not then even those "older" ones should have picked it up through their CRM / Human Factors training. We all have to work together.
There will always be the odd idiot on both sides of the flight deck door but by and large I think the majority respect the other view point.
There will always be the odd idiot on both sides of the flight deck door but by and large I think the majority respect the other view point.