Engineers Please Help.
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Engineers Please Help.
Dear Fellow Aircraft Engineer,
I am writing an academic ‘paper’ on Violations carried out by aircraft engineers as part of doing an MSC in Human Factors, and wondered if you would please help me.
I am looking for engineers to tell me about when they deveated from the rules / procedures and think about why they did it. Most of us do violate, or cut the odd corner to try and get the aircraft out on time, and we do it for what we believe are the right reasons.
I am looking for examples from both civilian and military engineering, and I would like to know:
What you did and more importantly why you did it? Think about the normal Human Factors type things, time pressure, lack of manpower etc but can you also think deeper about why you did it from a personal point of view. If you have been threatened with ‘the door’, if the aircraft wasn’t ready, do you honestly think that would happen, have you been directly threatened with the sack if you don’t get it done. Do you think the management / supervisors want you to cut corners, have you been encouraged to, were you thanked for doing it, what motivates you to do this even though you know deep down that it is against the rules etc.
What i don't want to know:
Names, Dates, Times, Companies, Locations etc. This is for an academic paper not an industry witch hunt.
I appreciate that this seems like a lot to ask, and if you could only spend 5 minutes jotting something down I will still be grateful.
If you could please PM me with anything that may help.
Thanks.
I am writing an academic ‘paper’ on Violations carried out by aircraft engineers as part of doing an MSC in Human Factors, and wondered if you would please help me.
I am looking for engineers to tell me about when they deveated from the rules / procedures and think about why they did it. Most of us do violate, or cut the odd corner to try and get the aircraft out on time, and we do it for what we believe are the right reasons.
I am looking for examples from both civilian and military engineering, and I would like to know:
What you did and more importantly why you did it? Think about the normal Human Factors type things, time pressure, lack of manpower etc but can you also think deeper about why you did it from a personal point of view. If you have been threatened with ‘the door’, if the aircraft wasn’t ready, do you honestly think that would happen, have you been directly threatened with the sack if you don’t get it done. Do you think the management / supervisors want you to cut corners, have you been encouraged to, were you thanked for doing it, what motivates you to do this even though you know deep down that it is against the rules etc.
What i don't want to know:
Names, Dates, Times, Companies, Locations etc. This is for an academic paper not an industry witch hunt.
I appreciate that this seems like a lot to ask, and if you could only spend 5 minutes jotting something down I will still be grateful.
If you could please PM me with anything that may help.
Thanks.
Last edited by Rigger1; 10th Apr 2009 at 09:31.
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Rigger1, I dont know if you are an industry outsider or not??? so let me tell you something.....all the engineers especially the Licensed ones.....we all know what the thin safety line is.....I am sure there will be millions who will agree with me.....We know when its safe to go and when it isnt.....If you are looking for specifics then I dont think anybody will ever admit it.....We all do it.....having known aircraft inside out....no matter what the commercial pressures are...if its not safe to go.....trust me....nobody will let it go!!!.....I am not trying to make heroes out of engineers.....but I am sure we always have these arguments with the crew about whats safe and whats not safe to go.....as far as Human factors is concerned....I dont think anybody would have let go of an unsafe aircraft under any circumstances....mind you, with every signature on the dotted line people are signing their careers away!!! Good Luck in your search though!!!!
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Mr Fixer, I’ve worked in the industry for 25 years, both military and then civil, and I agree with you, nobody ever does anything they think is dangerous, however, i have personally done questionable things when the pressure is on and I’ve made some big mistakes ... my record being over £5 million in damage!
I know a lot of people are very reluctant to talk about things, and I would be too. I no longer get my hands dirty and have moved over into the Human Factors world, and I still hear about things that make me cringe, all done with the best will in the world, and yes people do think it’s safe, but the accidents keep proving otherwise.
I am not asking for people to air their dirty washing, what I am trying to research is do people think about violating as they are doing it, are we conscious of what we are doing. I am trying to research this for a project I am doing, for my professional studies.
I know a lot of people are very reluctant to talk about things, and I would be too. I no longer get my hands dirty and have moved over into the Human Factors world, and I still hear about things that make me cringe, all done with the best will in the world, and yes people do think it’s safe, but the accidents keep proving otherwise.
I am not asking for people to air their dirty washing, what I am trying to research is do people think about violating as they are doing it, are we conscious of what we are doing. I am trying to research this for a project I am doing, for my professional studies.
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Rigger1, I appreciate what you are saying, I have been in this industry 15 years myself and been witness to so many things which should not have been done!!! Good of you to admit what mistakes you committed, because as we know in our Circles.....If you havent made a mistake...you havent done anything!!! But lets see....how many people will come out and give you the specifics of time,date,company,airlines,incidents etc. With my experience its 99% management deficiencies and lack of man-power & equipment, Good Luck with your query and hope people send you pm's instead of putting it on the forum, we wont want to scare our Pilot friends away, would we????
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I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're genuine, and I can see that you are after that 'raw' data you need for your paper
but...
it's human nature, anonymous or not, no one is going to admit to actually knowing their actions were a violation whilst they were doing it and I'm afraid your search will be a long one.
You can always try posting on 'airmech'
, but you will get the same feedback....believe me.
but...
it's human nature, anonymous or not, no one is going to admit to actually knowing their actions were a violation whilst they were doing it and I'm afraid your search will be a long one.
You can always try posting on 'airmech'
, but you will get the same feedback....believe me.
I consider the research that Rigga is undertaking is worthwhile and could help to fill a gap in the understanding of Human Factors errors in maintenance. There are many documented examples where the complexities of the "maintenance system" have contributed to occurrences, incidents and accidents that the subsequent investigation has placed into the HF pot. Distractions, shift hand overs, incomplete information in the maintenance manual etc. I believe that the HF initiatives over the past 10 or more years (training requirements, seminars, revised regulations etc) have played a valuable contribution in raising the awareness of engineers and enabled better defences to be put in place to protect us from the traps that are out there waiting for the unwary.
However there is no "silver bullet" to solve the HF issues in maintenance and we are only part way along the journey to change the culture to embed this protective mechanism into our daily way of working. It is not as simple as placing the blame on management as Mr Fixer alludes. When an engineer certifies a fix outside of approved data, certifies maintenance without carrying out the engine run specified in the AMM the decision to certify is 100% engineer. Flight crew are further down the line with their successful CRM programme, we should not be complacent on this subject and say "HF training" received, job done"
Rigger1 is trying to get better data on the very personal matter of why we make a "concious" decision to deviate (violate) and if he successful and his MSc paper contains a valuable insight into this then he will hopefully share the conclusions on pprune at some later date.
However there is no "silver bullet" to solve the HF issues in maintenance and we are only part way along the journey to change the culture to embed this protective mechanism into our daily way of working. It is not as simple as placing the blame on management as Mr Fixer alludes. When an engineer certifies a fix outside of approved data, certifies maintenance without carrying out the engine run specified in the AMM the decision to certify is 100% engineer. Flight crew are further down the line with their successful CRM programme, we should not be complacent on this subject and say "HF training" received, job done"
Rigger1 is trying to get better data on the very personal matter of why we make a "concious" decision to deviate (violate) and if he successful and his MSc paper contains a valuable insight into this then he will hopefully share the conclusions on pprune at some later date.
Last edited by happybiker; 11th Apr 2009 at 06:47. Reason: Name correction
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mrmagooo, yes i am licensed.
happybiker, thank you this is excactly what I am after:
I will publish the paper when finished, but I as I feared no one will own to too anything, even privately, we all know it goes on, we all think we are safe and yet none of us will discuss it, and very few will actually own up to it.
happybiker, thank you this is excactly what I am after:
trying to get better data on the very personal matter of why we make a "concious" decision to deviate
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No offence Rigger but who in their right mind is going to admit to a complete stranger on the internet that they illegally released an aircraft to service by swerving the approved docs?
As an engineer yourself I guess you can see why people would be reluctant?
As an engineer yourself I guess you can see why people would be reluctant?
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I totally understand, but I am not after details, I want to know what people think, do we think? does it bother us deviating from procedures? I do not think anyone would ever release something they didn’t think was safe, but that is not the point, the point is we all do it, I want to know why, not what or who or when.
I’m trying to get deep down into people’s minds to learn more about the thought process of skipping a rubbish bit of a procedure because we all know it doesn’t work.
I know it’s a long shot and i doubt anyone will respond, I have other avenues going on as well to try and take this research further, but the conversation on here alone is telling me a lot.
I’m trying to get deep down into people’s minds to learn more about the thought process of skipping a rubbish bit of a procedure because we all know it doesn’t work.
I know it’s a long shot and i doubt anyone will respond, I have other avenues going on as well to try and take this research further, but the conversation on here alone is telling me a lot.
HappyBiker, and to all others,
Please, please, PLEASE dont get me (Rigga) mixed up with "Rigger1"
I don't need to do a thesis and I've had enough of Human Factors!
RIGGA - NOT Rigger1
The edited bit...
Rigger1 - you've answered your own request!
"...skipping a rubbish bit of a procedure because we all know it doesn’t work."
What more do you need to know?
Please, please, PLEASE dont get me (Rigga) mixed up with "Rigger1"
I don't need to do a thesis and I've had enough of Human Factors!
RIGGA - NOT Rigger1
The edited bit...
Rigger1 - you've answered your own request!
"...skipping a rubbish bit of a procedure because we all know it doesn’t work."
What more do you need to know?
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OK Rigger1 , since atleast you are taking an initiative to do something and its for your own research, I am sure people will come out and speak. Lets hope its helps you in your project and would be interesting to know whether you need to be part insane to be an engineer
or to keep your job,License and sanity in place, all at once. Keep checking your pm's, hope people with clear conscience come out!!! Good Luck!!!
or to keep your job,License and sanity in place, all at once. Keep checking your pm's, hope people with clear conscience come out!!! Good Luck!!!
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Happy Biker,you seem hell bent on proving the importance of HF but what I said was "With my experience its 99% management deficiencies and lack of man-power & equipment". I guess you are either in management yourself or havent had the Honour of working for "Accountants"( who cant see anything other than costs and their own bonuses) or "Mr. YES MAN" of management. I have had that Honour so many times in so many companies!!!! Its all the same everywhere.....all I know is.....its the most Thankless job in the world.....you could be hanging upside down in Line, changing Rudder PCU's in any weather condition and not a single soul will ever say Thank you or well done because THATS YOUR JOB....BUT AS SOON AS anything goes wrong theres 100 fingers pointing at you saying YOU DID IT and to make it worse try saving your a*** from the Quality and FAA/CAA. Who would you blame?????.......the system??? culture within engineering??? Its all over the world and its the same!!!! I love what I do but theres always SOMEONE on the TOP who just doesnt understand our point of view!!!! Try and devise some special Human Factors for those Accountants and Yes Mans....things might stop going wrong!!!!
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dont forget that we all have 'engineer' licenses, and the experience and knowledge we have is what makes us able to make the decision if that airplane is 'good to go',
what did they do when a maintenance manual didn't give specific procedures on removal installation such as some old aerocommander books i have seen floating around, the fuel system info was a schematic, there was no description or removal installation sections, and the ipc wasn't much better, hell it wasn't even organized in ATA 100 format
what did engineers do when the 'approved data' was their license
please remember that in your 'research' our license (and responsibilities) has changed dramatically in the last few years,
take into account all the legal ramifications, the human factors BS, and not to mention the safety management systems i feel it now takes me way too long to take a dump iaw mm and company procedures
what did they do when a maintenance manual didn't give specific procedures on removal installation such as some old aerocommander books i have seen floating around, the fuel system info was a schematic, there was no description or removal installation sections, and the ipc wasn't much better, hell it wasn't even organized in ATA 100 format
what did engineers do when the 'approved data' was their license
please remember that in your 'research' our license (and responsibilities) has changed dramatically in the last few years,
take into account all the legal ramifications, the human factors BS, and not to mention the safety management systems i feel it now takes me way too long to take a dump iaw mm and company procedures
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Cannought, that is such a negative comment,
"human factors BS, and not to mention the safety management systems i feel it now takes me way too long to take a dump iaw mm and company procedures"
It astonishing that you even think it’s acceptable to compare safe aircraft maintenance with time just because it’s inconvenient. When you’re in court trying to justify the work you’ve carried out and say
“we all have 'engineer' licenses, and the experience and knowledge we have is what makes us able to make the decision if that airplane is 'good to go” it’ll get translated as “cutting corners.”
It is safety management systems and O hell that inconvenient maintenance manual that has helped reduce maintenance error, sorry we work in aviation, stopped engineers killing people.
More to the point a safety management system now makes it easier to pin corporate errors on management as apposed to the traditional system of sacking the engineer.
I personally think the direction that most of the industry is taking towards corporate accountability, human factors and standardization is a tribute to some of the visionaries that our industry has and they should be commended for it, how they managed to convince the industry to pay for it is a real credit to their drive and passion.
It may get in the way of you taking “a dump iaw mm and company procedures” but personally I’m glad to see the back of the good-ol-days.
"human factors BS, and not to mention the safety management systems i feel it now takes me way too long to take a dump iaw mm and company procedures"
It astonishing that you even think it’s acceptable to compare safe aircraft maintenance with time just because it’s inconvenient. When you’re in court trying to justify the work you’ve carried out and say
“we all have 'engineer' licenses, and the experience and knowledge we have is what makes us able to make the decision if that airplane is 'good to go” it’ll get translated as “cutting corners.”
It is safety management systems and O hell that inconvenient maintenance manual that has helped reduce maintenance error, sorry we work in aviation, stopped engineers killing people.
More to the point a safety management system now makes it easier to pin corporate errors on management as apposed to the traditional system of sacking the engineer.
I personally think the direction that most of the industry is taking towards corporate accountability, human factors and standardization is a tribute to some of the visionaries that our industry has and they should be commended for it, how they managed to convince the industry to pay for it is a real credit to their drive and passion.
It may get in the way of you taking “a dump iaw mm and company procedures” but personally I’m glad to see the back of the good-ol-days.
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apologies,
that wasn't intended to say that i don't believe safety systems and procedures, human factors and the like are not needed, i do believe that they are, however in SOME cases and instances they go too far and make a simple task waaaaaaayyyy to complicated, personally i have benefited greatly from human factors training
and no 'cutting corners' is not in the slightest what i meant, it was intended to be that common sense isn't all that common any more, nor is the ability to make decisions, i know a great many people that 'waffle' on decisions until it no longer matters and then they go off shift.
yes i know that a company needs to have procedures, and that i need to be educated and follow them, i didn't intend to sound as though the procedures should be ignored if inconvenient, but they can also be changed
that wasn't intended to say that i don't believe safety systems and procedures, human factors and the like are not needed, i do believe that they are, however in SOME cases and instances they go too far and make a simple task waaaaaaayyyy to complicated, personally i have benefited greatly from human factors training
and no 'cutting corners' is not in the slightest what i meant, it was intended to be that common sense isn't all that common any more, nor is the ability to make decisions, i know a great many people that 'waffle' on decisions until it no longer matters and then they go off shift.
yes i know that a company needs to have procedures, and that i need to be educated and follow them, i didn't intend to sound as though the procedures should be ignored if inconvenient, but they can also be changed