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Saving up the snags

Old 29th Sep 2007, 19:55
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: oop north
Age: 50
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Why??because yamaha the aircraft might be unairworthy and clearly your not qualified to make that judgement, bit of a "no brainer" really
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Old 29th Sep 2007, 20:11
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
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So are you saying that there is some substance to the radio 4 report then?

Looking back over this thread not many seem to be concerned about saving up the snags. I wonder how many are qualified to make that judgement as you put it and don't.

People in glass houses an all that!
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Old 29th Sep 2007, 20:51
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 1999
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People who can't distinguish between say a U/S map light and a lightning strike, really should consider their position.
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Old 29th Sep 2007, 21:01
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
So where exactly lies the limit between save till the end of the day or deal with immediately?

And where are those limits laid down?

I heavily suspect most posters here suffer from "do as I say not as I do"
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 01:37
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: France
Posts: 48
Saving up the snags

Below is an extract from the UK ANO Article 15 - as appropriate to your question of "where is it laid down"
I sugest that before you take umbridge at other posters on this topic that actually know what they are talking about, you make sure you attempt to learn the rules by which the UK aviation industry operate to.
I take it by your previous comments that you are one of the Prima Donnas that occupy the front of the aircraft when it flies - if so, enough said!
Article 15 of the ANO
(4) Subject to paragraph (5), at the end of every flight by an aircraft to which this article applies the commander shall enter in the technical log or the approved record as the case may be:
(a) the times when the aircraft took off and landed;
(b) particulars of any defect which is known to him and which affects the airworthiness or safe operation of the aircraft, or if no such defect is known to him, an entry to that effect; and (c) such other particulars in respect of the airworthiness or operation of the aircraft as the CAA may require;
and he shall sign and date the entries.
(5) In the case of two or more consecutive flights each of which begins and ends:
(a) within the same period of 24 hours;
(b) at the same aerodrome, except where each such flight is for the purpose of dropping or projecting any material for agricultural, public health or similar purposes; and
(c) with the same person as commander of the aircraft;
the commander may, except where he becomes aware of a defect during an earlier flight, make the entries specified in paragraph (4) at the end of the last of such consecutive flights.
mafibacon is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2007, 07:27
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 462
Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?
Duty of Care.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 08:53
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
but an aircraft on the ground costs money and could in fact cost you your job.

what I see here is nothing more than an us and them discussion. When you decide to ignore the faults its ok but should pilots do it, its not.

Duty of care applies to all of us.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 09:22
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
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Posts: 2,945

Yes we all have a duty of care. Which is why you have a legal duty to report it.

What will cost more is a smouldering hole in the ground rather than a small delay when a lightning strike check is carried out.

pic of a strike

It seems commercial pressure in this instance has more importance than safety.
spannersatcx is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2007, 09:27
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Oh I left one bit out.

I did report it. Maintenance (an engineer) told me to continue to the next suitable base (as it would be alright) and they would check it there.

Ummmm, glass houses springs to mind yet again.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 11:52
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Christ yamaha your scary, however something tells me your a bit of a "walter mitty", lets hope so anyway.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 12:34
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
Just trying to get to the bottom of this.

An engineer? goes on radio telling the world that pilots do not enter faults into the log books until the end of the day.

A damning statement if factual. As I said, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Point being that one shouldn't make unsubstantiated claims especially if one doesn't hold the moral high ground.
yamaha is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2007, 20:34
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Anglia
Posts: 1,950
I wonder what airline he pushes a drinks trolley for?
He can't be a pilot! surely not? I don't think I ever met one that obtuse.
Journalist maybe?
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Old 6th Oct 2007, 00:25
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 80
You want to try padantic Aussies Rigga.
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Old 6th Oct 2007, 14:04
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Posts: 16
Surely if an aircraft takes a lightning blast, and all seems good, the pilot cna continue to destination. no problem. Obviously this isnt a "capt map lt us" sort of defect. But if he does not feel the need to write it in the snag pad, whilst the planes doing the flying for 2 hours fine. but definiltly should report to an Eng once on the deck.

The eng, would then check it out. against the SRM. if found out of limits. oops! grounded. sorry! now thats the way I see it. I know the big comercial boys don't want that. but tough its the way it has to be. the only expection would be to get a special permit for 1 cycle to return to base if no approved maint is available down route.

Pilots may feel that they are under pressure to keep the machine moving. I think eng's may also be feeling that pressure. But I am sure that there is a greater prwessure not to do anything that will put safety at risk. Am I wrong??

oh, if found within limits, fine note on the dent chart, and defer for further evaluation at next C. or whatever the SRM states. easy!
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Old 6th Oct 2007, 19:15
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Posts: 1,950
"You want to try padantic Aussies Rigga."

Did you mean pedantic?
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Old 6th Oct 2007, 19:23
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Posts: 14
redundant failure

"As the person flying when the lighning strike occured, wouldn't I be best placed to know if something was up?

All systems continued to function normally, aircraft continued to handle normally.

Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?"

To reply to your query without the, us and them comments, glass house comments. etc. as to why you are NOT best qualified:
below are the systems of the aircraft that require checking on the aircraft I work on. Please pay particular attention to systems that are active but not used in normal operation. Maybe check the aircraft maint manual for your type you maybe surprised.

NOTE: The following inspection shall be done whenever aircraft is subjected to lightning strike.

(1) Using a torch and inspection mirror, visually inspect all engine electrical connectors and wires for evidence of damage. (Ref. Honeywell EM 72-00-09, page block 801, Honeywell EM 72-00-10, page block 801, Honeywell EM 72-00-11, page block 801, Honeywell EM 72-00-16, page block 801, AMM 74-20-01, page block 201, AMM 74-20-02, page block 201, AMM 75-10-03, page block 201, AMM 76-20-02, page block 201, AMM 76-20-03, page block 201, AMM 76-20-04, page block 201, AMM 77-12-01, page block 201, AMM 77-20-01, page block 201, AMM 77-20-02, page block 201, AMM 77-20-03, page block 201).

(2) Perform a ground run to determine proper operation of all engine electrical components and sensors as follows:-

(a) Ignition system.

(b) Vibration system.

(c) Anti-icing system.

(d) Rotor speed indicators.

(e) Oil system indicators.

(f) ITT system.

(g) Fuel flow indicators.

(3) Perform overspeed trip system redundancy and latch check.
MRB/MPD REF : 72-17B,72-17C

When a lightning strike has been reported, the aircraft and/or engine must be inspected for damage, and tests performed before the next flight (Ref. AMM 05-51-15, page block 1). All details of system malfunctions that occurred at the time of the strike, and subsequent to it, must be obtained from the flight crew.
In the following inspection requirements, the tasks are divided in phases as follows :-
Phase 1 - the initial inspection phase which, if found serviceable, will require no further action.
Phase 2 - the repair and replacement phase, if damage is found at phase 1. All structural repairs are to be performed in accordance with the procedures detailed in the Structural Repair Manual (SRM).
Phase 3 - used where tests are required after work at phase 2.

2. Inspection procedure
A. Equipment and materials

(1) Access platforms 11 to 24 ft. (3.35 to 7.32m).
(2) Warning notices.

Referenced procedures
SRM Structural repair manual.
WM Wiring manual.
AMM 05-51-15, page block 1 Lightning strike inspection (engines).
AMM 12-10-24, page block 1 Servicing - electrical power.
AMM 12-10-29, page block 1 Servicing - hydraulic power.
AMM 22-10-00, page block 501 Autopilot.
AMM 22-13-00, page block 501 Yaw damper.
AMM 23-11-00, page block 501 VHF communications system.
On aircraft 303
AMM 23-12-00, page block 501 HF communications system.
On aircraft ALL
AMM 23-60-11, page block 201 Static dischargers (tips).
AMM 23-60-14, page block 201 Static dischargers (trailing).
On aircraft 301,304-305
AMM 25-60-17, page block 201 Emergency locator transmitter.
On aircraft ALL
AMM 27-11-00, page block 501 Aileron control system.
AMM 27-12-00, page block 501 Aileron trim control system.
AMM 27-21-00, page block 501 Rudder control system.
AMM 27-31-00, page block 501 Elevator control system.
AMM 27-32-00, page block 501 Elevator trim control system.
AMM 27-50-00, page block 501 Flap control system.
AMM 27-61-00, page block 501 Lift spoiler system.
AMM 27-62-00, page block 501 Roll control system.
AMM 27-63-00, page block 501 Airbrake control system.
AMM 30-31-00, page block 501 Pitot, Q-pot and airflow sensor vane heaters.
AMM 30-32-00, page block 501 Static plate heaters.
AMM 30-41-00, page block 501 Windshield de-ice and demist.
AMM 30-42-00, page block 501 Windshield wipers.
AMM 30-71-00, page block 501 Water pipe heaters.
AMM 30-72-00, page block 501 Drain mast heater.
AMM 30-81-00, page block 501 Ice detection.
AMM 31-52-00, page block 501 Audible warning system.
AMM 32-30-00, page block 501 Extension and retraction.
AMM 32-41-00, page block 501 Brake controls and indication.
AMM 33-41-00, page block 501 Landing/taxi lights.
AMM 33-42-00, page block 501 Navigation lights.
AMM 33-43-00, page block 501 Runway turn-off (exit) lights.
AMM 33-44-00, page block 501 Wing inspection lights.
AMM 33-45-00, page block 501 Strobe lights and anti-collision beacons.
AMM 33-46-11, page block 201 Logo light unit.
AMM 34-11-00, page block 501 Pitot static system.
AMM 34-16-11, page block 201 Outside air temperature.
AMM 34-19-11, page block 201 Total air temperature.
AMM 34-21-00, page block 501 Compass system.
AMM 34-22-11, page block 201 Standby compass.
On aircraft 303-304
AMM 34-25-00, page block 501 Electronic flight instrument system (EFIS).
On aircraft 301-302,305
AMM 34-23-00, page block 501 Flight director system.
On aircraft ALL
AMM 34-33-00, page block 501 Marker system.
AMM 34-41-00, page block 501 Weather radar.
AMM 34-42-00, page block 501 Radio altimeter.
AMM 34-44-00, page block 501 Traffic alert and collision avoidance system (TCAS).
AMM 34-51-00, page block 501 Distance measuring equipment (DME).
AMM 34-52-01, page block 501 Air traffic control (ATC) - Mode-S.
AMM 34-53-00, page block 501 Automatic direction finder.
AMM 34-55-00, page block 501 VHF navigation.
On aircraft 303
AMM 34-60-00, page block 501 Navigation management system (GNS-X).
On aircraft ALL
AMM 34-61-02, page block 501 Flight management system (GNS-XLS).
AMM 53-00-00, page block 1 Fuselage.
AMM 53-10-52, page block 201 Radome.
AVOdriver is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2007, 21:14
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the Hangar & on the Line
Posts: 230

This looks familiar

BAe146s make me cry is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2007, 11:51
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 80
Yes your right I used the Urban Dictionary.
Blxxdy ell you do all that!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like better put in for a pay rise and next lightning strike check get all my workload a/c for the day ditched and carry on and hand over to next shift.
itwilldoatrip is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2007, 10:00
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 178
you should read the Cypriot Captain thread.
He was the one who dared challenge, most don't.
The quicker you people lose your blinkered "it don't happen to me so it don't happen" attitude...................the better for the whole of industry.
yamaha is offline  
Old 10th Oct 2007, 18:38
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Last company's DFO advised us by e-mail (very naiive) not to put defects in techlog, as they could not be rectified on turn base. This included u/s engine anti-ice valves (2 u/s on a heavy 3 eng. jet) potentially contaminated hydraulic system, u/s engine instruments N2 and F/F on one eng and N2 on another, one u/s VHF radio, one u/s H/F radio, u/s APU, one tyre worn to limits, only one QRH between the 3 flight deck crew, unusable main forward exit, one u/s landing light and one u/s taxi light on same side. I completed 4 pages in the tech log, and the A/C still departed after mimimum turn around at base. This aircraft flies into the UK, and it is scandalous.
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