Saving up the snags
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Joined: Aug 2005
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From: moscow
Saving up the snags
Would you assume that if a pilot suspects a fault on his plane he reports it immediately? Apparently it doesn't get reported until the end of the day.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio...l?radio4/today
it is about 16 mins in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio...l?radio4/today
it is about 16 mins in
Last edited by vascani; 22nd September 2007 at 11:22. Reason: bad link
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: leafy suburbs
Perhaps get the Cabin Service Director involved - some have a sheer joy, and boast about how many cabin defects they have raised in the cabin log (sorry eng, only been able to fill 5 pages - 5 snags a page). No little fault goes unnoticed!
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: england
There is no harm IMHO of Captins "carrying" minor snags that don't affect the safty of the aircraft.
Coming from an RAF background, we use 3 systems, the ADH log- Acceptable deferred husbandry, for stuff like fabric patches missing, missing/scratched paint etc.
ADF long- Acceptable deffered faults- minor stuff like only 1 of the two tail lights working/ bulb gone etc etc, anything that is a grievance but has no adverse limitation or operational effects on the A/C.
Lim log- Limitations log, anything that will affect the performance or operation of the aircraft, like a generator that is not working/ 1 of a pair of instruments no working like an ADI for example. Being mil we obviously can take larger faults than civvy airlines, and sometimes operate the aircraft with major faults just to get them back to a safe service centre. But again, the degree of the problem we are allowed to carry is balanced against the risk to the A/C and personel.
I think the system works well, and if used properly is a very safe way of flying with minor snags to prevent the loss of the sortie. All down to the Captin though, if he refuses to fly with any problem it's his/her call and the problem will get fixed before the next flight.
Coming from an RAF background, we use 3 systems, the ADH log- Acceptable deferred husbandry, for stuff like fabric patches missing, missing/scratched paint etc.
ADF long- Acceptable deffered faults- minor stuff like only 1 of the two tail lights working/ bulb gone etc etc, anything that is a grievance but has no adverse limitation or operational effects on the A/C.
Lim log- Limitations log, anything that will affect the performance or operation of the aircraft, like a generator that is not working/ 1 of a pair of instruments no working like an ADI for example. Being mil we obviously can take larger faults than civvy airlines, and sometimes operate the aircraft with major faults just to get them back to a safe service centre. But again, the degree of the problem we are allowed to carry is balanced against the risk to the A/C and personel.
I think the system works well, and if used properly is a very safe way of flying with minor snags to prevent the loss of the sortie. All down to the Captin though, if he refuses to fly with any problem it's his/her call and the problem will get fixed before the next flight.
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: UK
Being mil we obviously can take larger faults than civvy airlines, and sometimes operate the aircraft with major faults just to get them back to a safe service centre.
K-130
It’s actually the other way round. Airlines cannot afford to have their aeroplanes sitting on the ground, it costs them lots of money. If a dispatch is allowable iaw the MEL then it will fly, you will be surprised what snags they can and do carry. Aircraft are also released with major faults to get them back to main base, an example being un-pressurised flight due to structural damage.
I remember the good old days on the TriStar in the mob. You’d regularly get a load of blokes dithering around wondering what to do about the EPR gauge that had just gone U/S or the aircrew demanding it to be fixed before they flew. Delays were commonplace because some EngO was frightened of putting his name to a snag that was perfectible acceptable.
Unlike the MOD F700, civvies do not complicate matters with load of separate sections in their Tech Logs. A simple ADD (Acceptable Deferred Defect) log suffices for all deferred defects, including the ones that impose limitations on the aircraft.
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: France
EGT Redline
I doubt any civil reistered pressurised passenger carrying aircraft would be released back to service per the MEL due to structural damage.
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Structual variations to the tdc are covered in the CDL - ie missing panels etc., which are allowable. The CDL is part of the Flight Manual.
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A normal pressurised passenger aircraft with structural damage could be cleared to ferry unpressurised, to a place where repairs can be carried out under a "Permit to Fly" - normally issued, now, by EASA. - Assuming the aircraft is regestered in the EU.
MB
I doubt any civil reistered pressurised passenger carrying aircraft would be released back to service per the MEL due to structural damage.
`
Structual variations to the tdc are covered in the CDL - ie missing panels etc., which are allowable. The CDL is part of the Flight Manual.
`
A normal pressurised passenger aircraft with structural damage could be cleared to ferry unpressurised, to a place where repairs can be carried out under a "Permit to Fly" - normally issued, now, by EASA. - Assuming the aircraft is regestered in the EU.
MB
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: australia
Saving up the snags.
You also have to consider that airlines are run by people who look and act on statistics. For example if these people see that there are no defects entered into Tech Logs then GUESS WHAT!!!! They pop an e-mail to there mate and say how these airplanes are really good and safe and that we employ far too many engineers for the amount of defects we get. This happens. Pilots would be the first to complain that there are not enough engineers to fix or rectify any defect. So if there are any pilots out there looking at this I am sure that you have a defect/tech log in your office. Please use it as often as you like. You are not doing yourselves,the engineers,the aircraft,the passengers and the industry as a whole any favours. Jesus boys and girls THINK ABOUT IT!!!
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: UK
A normal pressurised passenger aircraft with structural damage could be cleared to ferry unpressurised, to a place where repairs can be carried out under a "Permit to Fly" - normally issued, now, by EASA. - Assuming the aircraft is regestered in the EU.
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: England
To illustrate Hossers comments I offer the following on statistics.
I contacted a major UK airlines technical department to point out that nowhere in their maintenance schedule did it call for any lighting to be checked other than emergency lights.
This is from Preflight to C check.
I had just received an aircraft off C check with over 40 cabin filaments out.
The response was
"" If you can statistically proove that this would lead to an aircraft delay we will do something about it""
Well it is'nt my job to statistically proove f**ck all, so nothing was done.
This gives a small insight into the mentality that engineers now have to deal with.
I contacted a major UK airlines technical department to point out that nowhere in their maintenance schedule did it call for any lighting to be checked other than emergency lights.
This is from Preflight to C check.
I had just received an aircraft off C check with over 40 cabin filaments out.
The response was
"" If you can statistically proove that this would lead to an aircraft delay we will do something about it""
Well it is'nt my job to statistically proove f**ck all, so nothing was done.
This gives a small insight into the mentality that engineers now have to deal with.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8
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From: USA
Saving up the snags
1. End of the day
2. End of the day at a Maintenance Base
3. Crew change (Hands A/C over to another crew with Nice log book writeup)
4. One crew writes up reading light Immediataly other guy flys around all day with 2 knob throttle split. No worries. Aint aviation grand.
2. End of the day at a Maintenance Base
3. Crew change (Hands A/C over to another crew with Nice log book writeup)
4. One crew writes up reading light Immediataly other guy flys around all day with 2 knob throttle split. No worries. Aint aviation grand.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 57
From: Anglia
"1. End of the day
2. End of the day at a Maintenance Base
3. Crew change (Hands A/C over to another crew with Nice log book writeup)
4. One crew writes up reading light Immediataly other guy flys around all day with 2 knob throttle split. No worries. Aint aviation grand."
...and then there are those that are "Carried" by crews for a later time (such as when another aircraft becomes available) and/or they can fill the TL with snags as the aircraft comes in for hangar maintenance!
2. End of the day at a Maintenance Base
3. Crew change (Hands A/C over to another crew with Nice log book writeup)
4. One crew writes up reading light Immediataly other guy flys around all day with 2 knob throttle split. No worries. Aint aviation grand."
...and then there are those that are "Carried" by crews for a later time (such as when another aircraft becomes available) and/or they can fill the TL with snags as the aircraft comes in for hangar maintenance!
You got to look at shorthaul airlines in the UK. Prime example.(A/C are Blue and white, and it ends in a I))
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Heathrow
Encounter at 07:53 maintenance inspection 16:45 at first airport with sufficient staff and facilities.
As the person flying when the lighning strike occured, wouldn't I be best placed to know if something was up?
All systems continued to function normally, aircraft continued to handle normally.
Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?
As the person flying when the lighning strike occured, wouldn't I be best placed to know if something was up?
All systems continued to function normally, aircraft continued to handle normally.
Why on earth would I disrupt the days flying programme and upset literally thousands of passengers?
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 57
From: Anglia
Well stated vs69.
The amount of rivets that melt next to Pressure Bulkheads or Skin Lap Joints, or even holes burnt through skins, is not really seen by our feathered bretheren as a threat to their fragile wax.
Its amazing how they know so much more than the so-called experts.
In the end, even UAV's will still need maintenance.
The amount of rivets that melt next to Pressure Bulkheads or Skin Lap Joints, or even holes burnt through skins, is not really seen by our feathered bretheren as a threat to their fragile wax.
Its amazing how they know so much more than the so-called experts.
In the end, even UAV's will still need maintenance.