Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Shortage
Blacksheep...
On the button, and I've just done a paper saying much the same in 1500 words of elegant prose, statistics, factors, conclusions etc.
Short, pithy, accurate statements like your last para can do a lot of damage to us BS merchants.
By the way, care is needed with assumptions about LCC fares and their passengers; there's a large Irish outfit that gets quite high average yields; the magic is worked by add-on charges but mainly because a small number of seats are sold at very high prices indeed, especially where competition is not strong, and a larger number at a fairly high price. There was a time a year or two back when on some routes they had a higher average yield than BA. Recently its average fare (ie excl taxes etc) was 49 Euros.
Flybe, which tries to be an LCC while looking more upmarket, will hit you for £280 (inc add-on charges) to get from EXT to JER and back, if you want to go at fairly short notice. Low fares are very few on that route. But then no-one else flies it.
On the button, and I've just done a paper saying much the same in 1500 words of elegant prose, statistics, factors, conclusions etc.
Short, pithy, accurate statements like your last para can do a lot of damage to us BS merchants.
By the way, care is needed with assumptions about LCC fares and their passengers; there's a large Irish outfit that gets quite high average yields; the magic is worked by add-on charges but mainly because a small number of seats are sold at very high prices indeed, especially where competition is not strong, and a larger number at a fairly high price. There was a time a year or two back when on some routes they had a higher average yield than BA. Recently its average fare (ie excl taxes etc) was 49 Euros.
Flybe, which tries to be an LCC while looking more upmarket, will hit you for £280 (inc add-on charges) to get from EXT to JER and back, if you want to go at fairly short notice. Low fares are very few on that route. But then no-one else flies it.
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L.A.M.E laments...
Hmm........doesn't sound good. I left LAME work in 1978 & have no regrets about it. Did a few things in between including retail. (still doing it).
At least you get to make your own decisions about working hours etc & you are home AT NIGHT & weekends. The social, family & health costs you pay are never compensated for by any allowance you might be lucky to receive.
$40,000 PA ? ........for some positions. Seem to remember reading somewhere in here of salaries a lot higher than that. As was said previously, once the pool of experience retires, resigns for greener pastures etc, supply & demand will dictate future salaries in this game.
At least you get to make your own decisions about working hours etc & you are home AT NIGHT & weekends. The social, family & health costs you pay are never compensated for by any allowance you might be lucky to receive.
$40,000 PA ? ........for some positions. Seem to remember reading somewhere in here of salaries a lot higher than that. As was said previously, once the pool of experience retires, resigns for greener pastures etc, supply & demand will dictate future salaries in this game.
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I agree. This problem is present on both sides of the pond, and is only going to get worse.
Often the starting pay is too low to attract potential new students to our trade, especially in the U.S.
Licensing is also posing a problem for some of us in recent years. I'm an experienced helicopter mech from the states, and currently working in the Mid-East, but I'm excluded from most jobs in Europe because I'm only A&P certified. I considered getting an EASA rating but it doesn't seem realistic to take all those tests and basically start over at this stage of my career. I wish things were different because I'd love to work in Europe.
These situations such as my licensing scenario add to the workforce problem. If U.S. licenses were accepted in Europe, and EASA license easily accepted in the U.S., I believe the industry workforce would be much more fluid, and would help alleviate some of this problem.
Often the starting pay is too low to attract potential new students to our trade, especially in the U.S.
Licensing is also posing a problem for some of us in recent years. I'm an experienced helicopter mech from the states, and currently working in the Mid-East, but I'm excluded from most jobs in Europe because I'm only A&P certified. I considered getting an EASA rating but it doesn't seem realistic to take all those tests and basically start over at this stage of my career. I wish things were different because I'd love to work in Europe.
These situations such as my licensing scenario add to the workforce problem. If U.S. licenses were accepted in Europe, and EASA license easily accepted in the U.S., I believe the industry workforce would be much more fluid, and would help alleviate some of this problem.
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Hmmmm
Very interesting reading this thread..... I am currently in the RAF, and having had about 9 years of experience I am looking at doing my B1 licence, as I have done airframe and propulsion training throughout my career. I know it's a decision that is hard to call, but I keep wondering if it is actually worth my while going to all the trouble and expense of gettting EASA / JAR 66 / B1 Qualified, or just go and do a domestic/ industrial elecrics course or plumbing etc?
It grinds me that If I choose to go into a non aviation job then I have effectevly wasted 9 years of experience, but looking and talking to LAE's the picture they paint is pretty grim
, everyone says contracting is the way to go but it offers little in the way of job security and benefits..
I would love to stay within the aviation industry as aircraft have been a major interest in my life, but everything is pointing in the direction of getting a decent trade in the construction/ property service industry and taking the £££ which seem to be a lot higher for a relativly unskilled job compared to the enormous amounts of training you have to go through to be let near an aircraft
What do you guys recon? Is it a worthwhile investment me going for B1 if I want to stay in the uk, preferably the Midlands area?
Very interesting reading this thread..... I am currently in the RAF, and having had about 9 years of experience I am looking at doing my B1 licence, as I have done airframe and propulsion training throughout my career. I know it's a decision that is hard to call, but I keep wondering if it is actually worth my while going to all the trouble and expense of gettting EASA / JAR 66 / B1 Qualified, or just go and do a domestic/ industrial elecrics course or plumbing etc?
It grinds me that If I choose to go into a non aviation job then I have effectevly wasted 9 years of experience, but looking and talking to LAE's the picture they paint is pretty grim
, everyone says contracting is the way to go but it offers little in the way of job security and benefits..I would love to stay within the aviation industry as aircraft have been a major interest in my life, but everything is pointing in the direction of getting a decent trade in the construction/ property service industry and taking the £££ which seem to be a lot higher for a relativly unskilled job compared to the enormous amounts of training you have to go through to be let near an aircraft
What do you guys recon? Is it a worthwhile investment me going for B1 if I want to stay in the uk, preferably the Midlands area?
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Personally I would spend the time/effort/money etc on learning a new trade like plumbing/plastering etc Yes I know everyone thinks its easy money, but it still needs several years of experience to be good, however the up side is the better work conditions and pay. A relation of mine was a nurse (male!) and took up plastering. Basically learn t on the job, now works for himself and earns just under £3k per month. Agreed no sick pay, holiday pay etc, but only works mon-fri, about 8 hour day, in the local area only...but as he is good he gets plenty of referrals etc..wish I was a bit younger and I would go the same way. (5 years to retirement not worth it now)
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Harsh environment and not many takers
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If you can get anything done towards B1 on resettlement do it, when you come out you shouldnt have any problem getting work as a non certifying technician, 9 years experience means you should be be able to find your way around an aeroplane , be it a cessna 150 or a Boeing 747 ! It'll take you a couple of years work to get the relevant experience/worksheets to complete your licences, but theres plenty of work. We have been hiring guys from college because there dont seem to be the people around, and they have minimal experience, but all the bits of paper !!! which isnt a lot of use , you cant buy experience !!
If you can get anything done towards B1 on resettlement do it, when you come out you shouldnt have any problem getting work as a non certifying technician, 9 years experience means you should be be able to find your way around an aeroplane , be it a cessna 150 or a Boeing 747 ! It'll take you a couple of years work to get the relevant experience/worksheets to complete your licences, but theres plenty of work. We have been hiring guys from college because there dont seem to be the people around, and they have minimal experience, but all the bits of paper !!! which isnt a lot of use , you cant buy experience !!
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>We have been hiring guys from college because there dont seem to be the people around, and they have minimal experience, but all the bits of paper !!! which isnt a lot of use , you cant buy experience !!
Who are these companies that are hiring college students?????? Have tried all of them a million times and no one will look at me twice because I havent got enough experience!!!!
Who are these companies that are hiring college students?????? Have tried all of them a million times and no one will look at me twice because I havent got enough experience!!!!
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I think it is a 'massive' generalisation to assume that all ab-inito student's are somewhat incapable. I myself an ex-newcastle student have contracted for 2 years post work experience without any complaints.. I have not yet applied for my license because I feel that more experience, i.e. troubleshooting is required, although in theory I could apply.
I do think that it is the fault of the 'old school' engineer, of whom many are very nice people, but appear to be threatened and annoyed by us hard working ex-students. I have worked with many mechanics, with plus 10 years experience and feel that they know very little in comparison (mainly the ones that whinge), although the very good mechanics are nothing but helpful...
Ok.... intially some students are slow learners in the practical world, but the quicker the experienced guys help us out and not just sneer at the very word BRISTOL, the quicker people like me will learn and go on to obtain the B1 with the required experience.
Finally for the record, 2 years exams/practical followed by 2-3years hands on experience gives an average of 4.5 years apprenticeship. Also this is followed by a type-rating, typically requiring a further 6 month's experience.
Please for the sake of the industry help us out 'where required' and not just assume that we are all the same. The alternative is that the shortage continues and our small industry is shipped off to places like Estonia and maybe even Poland. Think hard...
I do think that it is the fault of the 'old school' engineer, of whom many are very nice people, but appear to be threatened and annoyed by us hard working ex-students. I have worked with many mechanics, with plus 10 years experience and feel that they know very little in comparison (mainly the ones that whinge), although the very good mechanics are nothing but helpful...
Ok.... intially some students are slow learners in the practical world, but the quicker the experienced guys help us out and not just sneer at the very word BRISTOL, the quicker people like me will learn and go on to obtain the B1 with the required experience.
Finally for the record, 2 years exams/practical followed by 2-3years hands on experience gives an average of 4.5 years apprenticeship. Also this is followed by a type-rating, typically requiring a further 6 month's experience.
Please for the sake of the industry help us out 'where required' and not just assume that we are all the same. The alternative is that the shortage continues and our small industry is shipped off to places like Estonia and maybe even Poland. Think hard...
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Interesting thread.
I read about the ex- QANTAS guy only being offered 40,000? Odd when I left Ansett in 2000 I walked straight into a 52,000 job in QLD, mind you I moved from Victoria to get it and my wage has only ever gone up since with plenty of work to choose from, and I only have 15 years experience.
I dont ever plan to leave the industry, there is now too much money to be made with plenty of work out there if you really want it.
I read about the ex- QANTAS guy only being offered 40,000? Odd when I left Ansett in 2000 I walked straight into a 52,000 job in QLD, mind you I moved from Victoria to get it and my wage has only ever gone up since with plenty of work to choose from, and I only have 15 years experience.
I dont ever plan to leave the industry, there is now too much money to be made with plenty of work out there if you really want it.
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grababadger, nobody is saying that all ab-initio students are incapable. What they are saying is that you lack experience. By your own admission you have basically implied that you are too inexperienced to apply for a licence. That’s a wise decision.
Secondly, the ‘old school’ engineer does not feel threatened and annoyed by you so called hard working ex-students. Why would he? You are mechanic with only 2 years experience, whereas he on the other hand, has been turning the tools for a good number of years and has established a sound reputation for himself. You both apply for the same job, I know who I would employ.
What really pisses us engineers off is the fact that you students want everything all at once. The licence, the type ratings and the £40k plus salaries, you want it all now. Only a fool would put somebody like you in a certifying position, you’d be way out of your depth and the consequences of your mistakes could be dire.
I’m sorry but 2 years exams/practical followed by 2-3 years hands on does not equal a proper 4 year apprenticeship. Apprentices spend weeks filing a lump of steel flat and square and working different metals to minute tolerances. They learn to drill, ream and tap holes, use precision measuring equipment and an array of hand tools and undertake structural repairs. They work in bays learning to strip and assemble components from scratch. We are talking months and months of practical experience before they are even let loose on a real aeroplane, not some mickey mouse 10 week OJT placement.
The ‘college of knowledge’ student lacks experience and it shows. Yes they might be capable of changing simple components but when faced with a defect or structural repair they are at a complete loss. Manual dexterity is almost non existent in some. As somebody has previously stated, experience is something you cannot buy. It takes many years to become a competent aircraft maintenance engineer. I know guys who will readily admit they are still learning after 40 odd years in the industry.
I think the colleges are to blame. They are convincing people that they can be earning big bucks as a LAE within a few years of doing their course. As such we are seeing an influx of people into the industry from all manner of different backgrounds.
What you need to do grababadger is drop the attitude. Try telling a 10 year time-served mechanic that he knows sod all compared to you and I’m sure we can all predict the outcome. Humility and an ability to listen and learn from those around you will do wonders for your future. Opportunities will eventually come your way but you must be patient. Remember……don’t run before you can walk!!
End of first post, rant over.
Secondly, the ‘old school’ engineer does not feel threatened and annoyed by you so called hard working ex-students. Why would he? You are mechanic with only 2 years experience, whereas he on the other hand, has been turning the tools for a good number of years and has established a sound reputation for himself. You both apply for the same job, I know who I would employ.
What really pisses us engineers off is the fact that you students want everything all at once. The licence, the type ratings and the £40k plus salaries, you want it all now. Only a fool would put somebody like you in a certifying position, you’d be way out of your depth and the consequences of your mistakes could be dire.
I’m sorry but 2 years exams/practical followed by 2-3 years hands on does not equal a proper 4 year apprenticeship. Apprentices spend weeks filing a lump of steel flat and square and working different metals to minute tolerances. They learn to drill, ream and tap holes, use precision measuring equipment and an array of hand tools and undertake structural repairs. They work in bays learning to strip and assemble components from scratch. We are talking months and months of practical experience before they are even let loose on a real aeroplane, not some mickey mouse 10 week OJT placement.
The ‘college of knowledge’ student lacks experience and it shows. Yes they might be capable of changing simple components but when faced with a defect or structural repair they are at a complete loss. Manual dexterity is almost non existent in some. As somebody has previously stated, experience is something you cannot buy. It takes many years to become a competent aircraft maintenance engineer. I know guys who will readily admit they are still learning after 40 odd years in the industry.
I think the colleges are to blame. They are convincing people that they can be earning big bucks as a LAE within a few years of doing their course. As such we are seeing an influx of people into the industry from all manner of different backgrounds.
What you need to do grababadger is drop the attitude. Try telling a 10 year time-served mechanic that he knows sod all compared to you and I’m sure we can all predict the outcome. Humility and an ability to listen and learn from those around you will do wonders for your future. Opportunities will eventually come your way but you must be patient. Remember……don’t run before you can walk!!
End of first post, rant over.
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I know the maintenance industry cannot keep up to the pace of the likes of LCC and other airline growth. What is it approx. 100 a/c manufactured each month by the big guys Boeing,airbus,embraer,bombardier.
How many companies worldwide have increased their maintenance facilities?
How many have increased training both to Licensed guys and apprentices?
All you see around the world is new pilot cadet programs, and accelerated pilot this and that!
Not to knock the guys (pilots) but you can train a pilot in 6 weeks not hard, how long does it take to train an engineer to be of good use?
You can get accelerated training and sorts but how long does it take to get to be comfortable on type.
When will aviation companies world wide stop treating us engineers as monkeys?
Every year all I seem to hear is maintenacne is costing too much its taking too long to get an a/c back online no one thinks that maybe even the parts suppliers can't keep up to the pace.
and finally why is a pilot aprofessional and an engineer a grease monkey?
How many companies worldwide have increased their maintenance facilities?
How many have increased training both to Licensed guys and apprentices?
All you see around the world is new pilot cadet programs, and accelerated pilot this and that!
Not to knock the guys (pilots) but you can train a pilot in 6 weeks not hard, how long does it take to train an engineer to be of good use?
You can get accelerated training and sorts but how long does it take to get to be comfortable on type.
When will aviation companies world wide stop treating us engineers as monkeys?
Every year all I seem to hear is maintenacne is costing too much its taking too long to get an a/c back online no one thinks that maybe even the parts suppliers can't keep up to the pace.
and finally why is a pilot aprofessional and an engineer a grease monkey?
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Ok.....
''What really pisses us engineers off is the fact that you students want everything all at once. The licence, the type ratings and the £40k plus salaries, you want it all now. Only a fool would put somebody like you in a certifying position, you’d be way out of your depth and the consequences of your mistakes could be dire''
Only a fool would make such a statement based on what, a few students you have worked with ?? what you are saying is wrong and un-fair. Clearly you have a negative attitude towards ex-students,
How many EX students have you exactly worked with?
You have also failed to understand the meaning of my original post, which was not one of boast, but plead...
I have worked with many engineers, of whom I have respected and shown nothing but humbleness.
Although I agree that two years is not enough, I will say that the apprenticeship schemes are no more advanced than the ab-inito courses. Take into account that we had to file and then file and then bend, drill, ream and then tap, then rivet etc....
whilst taking difficult exams, which in itself shows the ability to read interpret information and act on it (something vital to an engineer).
Also as for not being able to carry out defect repairs or structural repairs, I have carried out many repairs (structural repairs) without complaints, sometimes praise.
As for telling a mechanic with 10yrs experience that he/she is crap would not be the wisest of movement by any means. But the point is, some are... some are clearly not. My point is that time vs experience is not always true, its about knowledge backed up with experience, not just 'experience' which can sometimes have the reverse effect leading to complacency, maybe a few 'dire' consequences.
You have certainly validated my point with your response and hopefully other readers may give their input.
'RANT' over
''What really pisses us engineers off is the fact that you students want everything all at once. The licence, the type ratings and the £40k plus salaries, you want it all now. Only a fool would put somebody like you in a certifying position, you’d be way out of your depth and the consequences of your mistakes could be dire''
Only a fool would make such a statement based on what, a few students you have worked with ?? what you are saying is wrong and un-fair. Clearly you have a negative attitude towards ex-students,
How many EX students have you exactly worked with?
You have also failed to understand the meaning of my original post, which was not one of boast, but plead...
I have worked with many engineers, of whom I have respected and shown nothing but humbleness.
Although I agree that two years is not enough, I will say that the apprenticeship schemes are no more advanced than the ab-inito courses. Take into account that we had to file and then file and then bend, drill, ream and then tap, then rivet etc....
whilst taking difficult exams, which in itself shows the ability to read interpret information and act on it (something vital to an engineer).
Also as for not being able to carry out defect repairs or structural repairs, I have carried out many repairs (structural repairs) without complaints, sometimes praise.
As for telling a mechanic with 10yrs experience that he/she is crap would not be the wisest of movement by any means. But the point is, some are... some are clearly not. My point is that time vs experience is not always true, its about knowledge backed up with experience, not just 'experience' which can sometimes have the reverse effect leading to complacency, maybe a few 'dire' consequences.
You have certainly validated my point with your response and hopefully other readers may give their input.
'RANT' over
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what makes you think we want everything all at once? what a pathetic statement! do you not think being skint for 3 years working our way through college means we want everything at once? just because its taken you years to get the knowlege and experiance you needed to be looked at twice by a company doesn't mean your any more competent than a guy who has just left college.
i happen to have been very good at the practical side of my college work, me and a friend had taken a 40 year old plane fit for the scrap heap and rebuilt the whole hudraulic system and made it fully functional within a week. we had no manuals only common sense and knowlege we had built up in our modules.
i am not after my licence tomorow, just the chance to get the practical knowlege and experiance i need to apply for it.
i happen to have been very good at the practical side of my college work, me and a friend had taken a 40 year old plane fit for the scrap heap and rebuilt the whole hudraulic system and made it fully functional within a week. we had no manuals only common sense and knowlege we had built up in our modules.
i am not after my licence tomorow, just the chance to get the practical knowlege and experiance i need to apply for it.
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smudgethecat....
Real apprenticeship training??? Again another 'old school' biased niave individual who only see's black and white. Ive worked along side apprentices, most of whom admitted that my knowledge was greater than their's. I was regulary asked for advice.. I've met guys that cannot even use a micrometer, the kind of people with 'years' of experience.
Interesting how you assume all students are the same, when their are around 100 students being released each year from ab-inito. It appears to me that you are judging a minority.
Also, interestingly after speaking to a hangar manager, I was told that one of the best tech's was ex-bristol-in fact he was on permanent call when needed.
Real apprenticeship training??? Again another 'old school' biased niave individual who only see's black and white. Ive worked along side apprentices, most of whom admitted that my knowledge was greater than their's. I was regulary asked for advice.. I've met guys that cannot even use a micrometer, the kind of people with 'years' of experience.
Interesting how you assume all students are the same, when their are around 100 students being released each year from ab-inito. It appears to me that you are judging a minority.
Also, interestingly after speaking to a hangar manager, I was told that one of the best tech's was ex-bristol-in fact he was on permanent call when needed.
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Could you explain please as to which a/c type you and your friend managed to restore the complete hydraulic system on......and only took one week to do so ?.
Just curious.
Could you explain please as to which a/c type you and your friend managed to restore the complete hydraulic system on......and only took one week to do so ?.
Just curious.
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me and a friend had taken a 40 year old plane fit for the scrap heap and rebuilt the whole hudraulic system and made it fully functional within a week. we had no manuals only common sense and knowlege we had built up in our modules.
I wonder what the CAA would do if they knew you are willing to work on aircraft systems with no manuals only common sense.
Common sense tells me, as a time served licenced engineer, not to let you anywhere near an aircraft.
