Engineers - Keep Your Status!

[Bartender]

Got this email earlier today:

From NCE Plus

Astronautics engineer Jon Jennings has this week leapt on the online
petition bandwagon to call for the title of "engineer" to be a protected
title. Jennings has joined an escalating list of people using 10 Downing
Street's online petition trial to drum up support for his campaign to
restore respect in engineers.

"Car mechanics, plumbers and electricians are now commonly referred to
as engineers and banks now regard engineers as semi skilled," says his
petition.

With 2,400 signatories to date, the petition already tops the "business
and industry" category. But it still lags well behind the road pricing
petition which received 1.7M signatories before it closed on Tuesday and
even falls short of the 3,707 who want the prime minister to stand on
his head and juggle ice-cream.

So if you agree that the status of the engineer is undervalued in
society please sign the petition:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/

Thanks. Huw

[McAero]

Over 13,000 now

[TURIN]

From the petition creator...

As a recently qualified Astronautics Engineer and with 8 years experience as a Robotics Engineer I am at a point where due to the lack of respect by the Government, the media in particular the BBC, and society as a whole, I feel there is little point staying in the UK. Car mechanics,Plumbers and Electricians are now commonly referred to as Engineers and Banks now regard Engineers as non/semi skilled. With the UK falling behind most other countries in training Professional Engineers and the falling numbers of children undertaking science based subjects this can only result in a reduction in the UK’s competitiveness. I believe for the long turn prosperity of the UK and to attract students back to science subjects the Government must act decisively and introduce laws to protect Engineers such that only “Chartered Engineers” ImechE, RAeS can use the title Engineer. This will give Engineers the same professional status in our society as doctors, lawyers similar to Europe.

So thats me out then.
Seems a CAA License 25 years in the job and a HNC aint good enough.

Bleedin primadonnas these njunears!!

[Mr.Brown]

I suggest "Astronautics engineer Jon Jennings" looks the word engineer up in the dictionary. I think you'll all find it humbling!
I suppose doctors will be giving out about the tree doctors not being real doctors next.
Anyway what does it really mean, title doesn't get you respect anymore this is the real world. Actions get respect.
Why not petition no. 10 for free UNI education for all who meet the educational standard, and maybe then the UK can catch up.

[Blacksheep]

The Continentals have the title Ingenieur (spelling?) and those entitled to call themselves Engineers - basically a Masters in Engineering plus post grad specialist qualifications - replace their Mister, Messieur or Herr with Ingenieur.

Thus: Eur. Ing. Maurice Bluesheep.

In UK we still trail the designation behind our name - hence: George Brownfag C.Eng, MSc, MRAeS. Since we are now honorary Europeans, if George pays the cash up front and gets his paperwork approved he can be Eur. Ing. Georg Brownfag.

Not many do it though. My brother is a PhD in civil engineering but prefers his C.Eng to any other titles.

"Its a proper British thing..." he says, "...and besides all the best engineers in history were British - Watt, Stevenson, Brunel. Who needs a Frog qualification? When I travel to the Continent they can call me Doctor Blacksheep."

Patriotic is my brother, not to mention a slight touch of xenophobia.

[NorthSeaTiger]

An Aircraft Engineer is someone who is Licensed and makes decisions every day and takes responsibility for the aircraft where as An Aircraft Mechanic is an un-licensced guy who where, they do still do a lot of the work don't take responsibility or make the same judgments that the person who has gained the qualifications does.

Where as a car mechanic may do an HNC it is a far more advanced course to gain a Licensce and then go on to gain types on top of that, Plus your normal Aircraft Engineer will drill/rivet/do sheet metal repairs, use complex test equipment and fault diagnose multiple complex systems.

So to me a fully qualified Licensced Engineer deserves the title and should be respected for their qualifications and Knowledge.

NST

[forget]

If a car mechanic is not due the title of engineer then why is a aircraft mechanic due it?

Clue!

[Mr.Brown]

WOW an "old" Licence book!
The new ones I'm sure actually say "Aircraft maintenance licence".
Look Engineer up in the dictionary:
1) http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...5686&dict=CALD
2) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/engineer?view=uk.
We're all engineers just different types!!!!
Education requirements as an engineer is based on the industry in which you operate whether it be plumbing, cars, aircraft, rockets etc etc.

[forget]

WOW an "old" Licence book!

Old - Mr Brown - Old! I'll show you Old!

[NorthSeaTiger]

Now that's old !!

[om15]

If you go to the States and tell them that you are an engineer they think you drive a freight train, so I suppose its a national understanding.

The new Part 66 plastic licence book does indeed miss out the word Engineer, however all is not lost, if you feel that you require to be formally recognised as an Engineer, then join the RAeS and register as Eng. Tech, or I Eng , see the other thread running on this subject. it is possible for a senior LAE holding a management position to register as a C Eng.

I think that we may be our own worst enemies in this, it is now common for all grades of mech, tech, LAE to be refered to as Engineers, even in employment contracts and so on,

Best regards,
om15

[stevef]

I couldn't care less what I'm called as long as it's not 'grease monkey'. My maroon book is titled Aircraft Maintenance Engineer's Licence but I wouldn't actually consider myself as an 'engineer' proper (Etymology: Middle English engineour, from Anglo-French, from enginer to devise, construct, from engin).
We're not going to get any more respect by insisting we're addressed as engineers (as Mr Brown intimated), any more than a cleaner demanding to be classified as a 'sanitation operative'.
As long as the pay's in the bank at the end of the month, I'll quite happily be a tech, mech, maintainer or spannerbender.

Speaking of licences, I was rather miffed to have my AMEL number changed from 223** to 409***%. You could generally date someone by his/her old licence number.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Damned if I know what I am any more, but since I have two degrees in engineering, and an inspectors ticket, the word "Engineer" usually applies.

I'd vote for protection of the title - to at-least restrict the title to those with formal professional qualifications; I don't mind if that's CEng, LAME, or a 4-year apprenticeship at Dagenham - but I do object to its use by somebody who has done a 3 week course in servicing photocopiers.

G

[Mr.Brown]

The new EASA part66 licences have no reference to engineer as Europe now see's us as technicians.
I'm not bothered I'm still the same person doing the same job and getting paid the same.

[yachtno1]

Certifying technicians I think

[Blacksheep]

ICAO Annex One provides the international guidelines for the licensing of Aircraft Maintenance Engineers.

The ICAO Type I and Type II Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) licences have been superseded by a single Aircraft Maintenance Engineer licence since November 1998 (see Annex 1, Chapter 4, paragraph 4.2).
So, US A & P Mechanics are really LAMEs, Certifying Technicians are LAMEs - anyone with an ICAO licence is a LAME.

In UK, a LAME can gain professional registration through the RAeS - provided they can demonstrate the necessary background and experience and are willing to subject themselves to interrogation by...
The Assessors.

Actually, it was quite a pleasant day trip to London and the assessors were OK - a bit like an old-time CAA Oral, but three-on-one instead of the old one to one face-off.

[Litebulbs]

RAeS

Blacksheep

Just been reading through the RAes website. Can you expand a bit more on what you went through to gain IEng. With the alternative route for A&C X or B or C licenced engineers, what did your application consist of and did you compile a report or was it just like the coffee and biscuit chat nightmare of the old oral? Oh, and how much?!

[Aeronut]

Whilst I sympathise with the intent, chartered engineers do indeed deserve greater respect, I believe it is an apallingly worded petition:

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Professional Status For Engineers and Engineering."

to what?


Sounds like Borat.

[om15]

I Eng, C Eng.

Litebulbs,
There was thread running about three weeks ago on here regarding Chartership, that gives some gen, to recap,
An ALE with experience can apply for I Eng, this should be awarded without any submission, but I believe that you now need to do a Professional Review, which is a tea and biscuits job, if you wish to apply for C Eng then the route is the Technical Report Option, whereby you submit a technical synopsis on your chosen subject, if acceptable you then have a peroid of time to present your paper to the assessors, if this is acceptable then the next step is the technical interview, the 3 person panel will comprise of an RAeS Standards Officer and the two technical assessors who have reviewed the paper, the intent is carry out an informal interview to discuss the paper, the aim is to have the two assessors from different backgrounds, therefore one assessor may be from a University and the other from industry, this is not a daunting experience, and is unlike a CAA oral.
You can find out more about this from the Engineering Council website or follow links on the RAeS website, I mentioned on the other thread that 23 Applicants have submitted applications for C Eng registration via the TRO but only one has completed in the past two years.

Best regards,
om15

[Blacksheep]

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Professional Status For Engineers and Engineering

It will be a cold day in hell before Tony Bliar will be qualified to determine who does or does not have professional status. Let him stick to pontificating upon Jade Goody and the other denizens of the Big Brother house.

Good heavens! If we let the politicians have anything to do with the profession, in no time at all people will be buying Chartered Engineer status!

Litebulbs - I didn't follow the alternative route for LAMEs, it only came in last September, so I don't know what it involves. Check with the RAeS for specific details: my guess is that there are no fixed guidelines and each case is checked on its individual merit. Assuming their individual background check is accepted, LAMEs will still have to do a professional review.

In my case I was working in Technical Services as Section Head and was already MRAeS. I had to fill in the forms and submit them with a brief summary of a technical project I'd undertaken. I was invited for a Professional Review at the RAeS and asked to bring the evidence of my qualifications (my degree, licenses, course certificates, etc.) and samples of my work - a Modification, some SB assessments and some samples of Engineering Orders. These serve to both prove your claimed background & experience and provide the basis for discussion.

There are two assessors (there was an 'extra' sitting in on mine - a CAA chap who was being trained as an IEng assessor). The focus was on the Engineer's role in society, including the economic and social impact of what we do. It didn't take long but they did make me sweat a bit - you wouldn't be able to bluff your way through. Imagine being asked to give an off-the-cuff presentation on the socio-economic impact of installing TCAS as a retrofit modification and you'll get some idea of what's involved.

I can't remember what it all cost but it wasn't an arm and a leg - apart from Mrs B being let on the loose in Oxford Street while I was in Hamilton Place.