LAEs Replaced By RMA "technicians" and matters arising.
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near-enuf,
As someone who lives and works in the US you have got it wrong.
Guys go and get an 'Acme School' A & P licence and then after a few months leave aviation and then get a job at Pizza Hut or Burger King because then can earn more money !!!
Sounds familiar eh!
As someone who lives and works in the US you have got it wrong.
Guys go and get an 'Acme School' A & P licence and then after a few months leave aviation and then get a job at Pizza Hut or Burger King because then can earn more money !!!
Sounds familiar eh!
Guest
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I dont think we should be sitting here telling each other how bad we all are at our jobs! I hold a BMA (hangar version of RMA for those not in the know!) and i see some pretty scary things from other BMAs i work alongside. The fact is there are good and bad people doing the same jobs all over the world, in all industries. Everyone loves to moan about how little they get paid and how bad everything is at work, but its not that bad at all really is it? If it was, and you weren`t just moaning for the sake of it, you`d leave and do something else, if you really were truly unhappy. What i really want to know though is: if every engineer is so unhappy with everything, why do we never go on strike. Cabin crew do, flight crew threaten to if the winds blowing in the wrong direction! If we really wanted the top monkeys to see how important engineers were, we`d just not go to work. but we don`t. we keep turning up every day, allowing things to happen around us, and then moaning when we dont like the results. Typical british mentality im afraid, and it`ll never change.
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in respect to the last post, how much do cabin crew get paid? are most cabin crew female, and if so what do their other halfs get paid? What do flyers get paid? What do engineers get paid? Get my point? We cannot financially afford to go on strike.
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Chickens coming home to roost or what? My bestest mate tim-ing posted this thread 6 months ago and the reaction was muted. The cut-off date approaches, somebody reads the post, and Bingo. The cut off date is also the date that RMA holders will become online as the new age "engineers" in the front line of the Best Avoided airline as their day to day maintenance will be carried out by regraded personnel.
Engineers, even LWTR types, are running around trying to fill in their PER books to either get a licence or keep their grandfather rights under JAR 66.
I use the term engineers with gay abandon don't I, I'm in full knowledge that the real description of these guy's is at best technician and at worst, a fraudulent holder of a worthless qualification that has been devalued by the number of people who have obtained it by deception.
Why do I use this term engineers so freely? Well when the next smokey hole in the ground that due to aircraft engineering failiure occurs, the newspaper won't say an RMA guy screwed up will it. It will say an engineer screwed up and then who is being painted with the same brush. We wait and see don't we? I hope it never happens but I've been in this business long enough to know if it can happen eventually it will.
Engineers, even LWTR types, are running around trying to fill in their PER books to either get a licence or keep their grandfather rights under JAR 66.
I use the term engineers with gay abandon don't I, I'm in full knowledge that the real description of these guy's is at best technician and at worst, a fraudulent holder of a worthless qualification that has been devalued by the number of people who have obtained it by deception.
Why do I use this term engineers so freely? Well when the next smokey hole in the ground that due to aircraft engineering failiure occurs, the newspaper won't say an RMA guy screwed up will it. It will say an engineer screwed up and then who is being painted with the same brush. We wait and see don't we? I hope it never happens but I've been in this business long enough to know if it can happen eventually it will.
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Awanana etc.
Have you been out on strike in you time with Big Airways?
I have & I know from painful experience what little effect it can have.
When you know a bit more about your profesion, you will learn that most checks can be defered by 10%, & that 'managment' Engineers will come out of the woodwork to defer or 'NFF' any awkward defects.
Can you afford to be out the door for 1month+, & if your answer is yes - can your collegues with HUGE mortgages/kids do the same? 'cos this is the MIN time it will take to make an impact.
If you want an incentive to acheive a BCAR/JAR licence it should be obvious to you: How many guys do you work with that have made their fortune/had the time of their lives working abroad? Will another airline accept you with an BMA/RMA? Don't think so, their local guys have these already - they want 'experts', not more !!!!kickers!
Wake up & take a look at the world outside BA. , it might make you think!
Have you been out on strike in you time with Big Airways?
I have & I know from painful experience what little effect it can have.
When you know a bit more about your profesion, you will learn that most checks can be defered by 10%, & that 'managment' Engineers will come out of the woodwork to defer or 'NFF' any awkward defects.
Can you afford to be out the door for 1month+, & if your answer is yes - can your collegues with HUGE mortgages/kids do the same? 'cos this is the MIN time it will take to make an impact.
If you want an incentive to acheive a BCAR/JAR licence it should be obvious to you: How many guys do you work with that have made their fortune/had the time of their lives working abroad? Will another airline accept you with an BMA/RMA? Don't think so, their local guys have these already - they want 'experts', not more !!!!kickers!
Wake up & take a look at the world outside BA. , it might make you think!
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I went on strike with Big Airways twice, and both times we were beaten in all the demands that were made. To rub salt into wounds, one of the industrial actions was over a colleague at a bigger base. They never then supported us on later issues. Great.
With 'friends' like that in the union there is no suprise that there is no unity.
With 'friends' like that in the union there is no suprise that there is no unity.
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Don't think I've ever said here that I'm not happy, of course we'd all like more money, who wouldn't.
It sounds to me that the problem is with Big Airways and how they have DESKILLED, perhaps that's why I left them!
Pilots can really bring an airline to a grinding halt, it's difficult for Engineers to as like you say there are those behind a desk still holding tickets that are yes men and will do anything for the management and would s*** on their so called colleagues rather than ever help them.
It sounds to me that the problem is with Big Airways and how they have DESKILLED, perhaps that's why I left them!
Pilots can really bring an airline to a grinding halt, it's difficult for Engineers to as like you say there are those behind a desk still holding tickets that are yes men and will do anything for the management and would s*** on their so called colleagues rather than ever help them.
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Yes i do know how much fun it can be working overseas. my dad is an eng and i spent a long time travelling the world when i was younger. I fully intend to do the same. i also know how things have deteriorated in respect to knowlege levels at work. when i was still an apprentice i was carrying out ramp checks on my own and going back to the crew room to tell the cert that it was all ok and he could stamp the sheet. all im saying is you work to live, not live to work, and if youre not happy at work, go elsewhere until you are. maybe its all the long faces of the engineering staff that get us such a bad reputation amongst other members of staff?
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How can we ever be respected in our job when some people publicly claim it to be easy. I expect people in Pizza Hut at least have the sense to say they work hard and do a good job instead of running themselves down!
It is true that a lot of us have stamped off PER books for the RMA and we should be ashamed of what we have done, we always complain about the way we are treated and then do everything the boss wants!
It is our knowledge of the whole A/C system we are working on that makes our decisions more than just changing a box but changing it for a reason and knowing what to do next when the box dosnt fix it.
If we get it wrong resulting in a loss of life will the court say just let him go he only changed a box or will we suddenly be a highly skilled person who is responsible for everything.
As for the unions they are not representing us we are a small group who and be thrown to lions everytime they want to get something for the RMA men.
It is true that a lot of us have stamped off PER books for the RMA and we should be ashamed of what we have done, we always complain about the way we are treated and then do everything the boss wants!
It is our knowledge of the whole A/C system we are working on that makes our decisions more than just changing a box but changing it for a reason and knowing what to do next when the box dosnt fix it.
If we get it wrong resulting in a loss of life will the court say just let him go he only changed a box or will we suddenly be a highly skilled person who is responsible for everything.
As for the unions they are not representing us we are a small group who and be thrown to lions everytime they want to get something for the RMA men.
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To all those who have said that our job is no longer hard. Perhaps you have not seen the severe degree of maintenance violations that go on in some areas. OK so the physical and technical aspects of the job not beyond a mere 'technician's' capabilities. However,when you have to deal with a tech recording system which cannot tell you what has been done, when it was done and by whom, when you have company procedures which in some cases are absolute rubbish and in most cases overcomplicated and contradictory,when you have to wait indefinately for spares you order but still give a date your section of the aircraft wil be ready, when you have no tech suppoprt at weekends,when your managers refuse to get the aircraft cleaned for even detailed inspections,when your Quality dept admit your manager is a known cowboy but will not support you when going against him on a serious airworthiness issue,when you have to work with people who make every attempt to avoid certifying their work, or even doing any in some cases, when you have to fight the brown-noses off to prevent them signing off one of your serious defects as 'considered satis' when ,if you refuse to do a job because of lack of tooling etc the managers simply give it to night shift(who will do anything as long as they get away by 3am)and when you are considered a troublemaker for not going with the flow and cutting every corner expected of you...THAT is when the job gets hard.
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When BMA / RMA'S were introduced at BA I was totally against it. But as I started to watch the biggest skiver's in our hangar copy job cards in to their PER books and have them stampped by LAE's who couldn't be bothered to read the entries, and then go on to get the pay rises for holding a BMA the were not even using I realised the person my protesr was hurting was my pocket. So I sold-out and got my self a BMA. In the begining what we could do was limited, but bit by bit the company (with-out consultion) allowed us to do more and more. Then the same LAE's that had stampped our books in the first place started to question what we were doing. I still disagreed with the whole scheme, so I took the cowards way out and applied for an office job. As much as I miss working on aircraft, my protests at change failed, so I got out.
Don't blame the technicians for wanting more pay, blame the system that allowed it to happen
Don't blame the technicians for wanting more pay, blame the system that allowed it to happen
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Weasel , ever thought of changing your name to 'Doom & Gloom' or shall we split it & go half?
The situations you describe are now everyday occurances which to some , are just accepted as normal practice.
So the options left open to you are
1) leave the "world class" establishment ( should be " Third World class " ) , forfeiting your many years of seniority to start at the bottom of the ladder , only to find your new employers are a even bigger cowboys.
2) Grass 'em all up using alledged anonymous reporting schemes to find yourself treated like a case of Foot & Mouth or worse 3) adopt a 'if you can't beat them , join them ' attitude by becoming a shift manager or 4) Go for the complete identity/sex change operation & call yourself "Golden Winnit" ( or similar sounding name ).
Rgds AC.
P.S Talking of things Golden , haven't heard much from GR recently . Could she still be sulking after being told to P#ss off on a previous thread?
The situations you describe are now everyday occurances which to some , are just accepted as normal practice.
So the options left open to you are
1) leave the "world class" establishment ( should be " Third World class " ) , forfeiting your many years of seniority to start at the bottom of the ladder , only to find your new employers are a even bigger cowboys.
2) Grass 'em all up using alledged anonymous reporting schemes to find yourself treated like a case of Foot & Mouth or worse 3) adopt a 'if you can't beat them , join them ' attitude by becoming a shift manager or 4) Go for the complete identity/sex change operation & call yourself "Golden Winnit" ( or similar sounding name ).
Rgds AC.
P.S Talking of things Golden , haven't heard much from GR recently . Could she still be sulking after being told to P#ss off on a previous thread?
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I'm not going to moan about LAE's or argue all night about RMA/BMA techs, at the end of the day we've all been shafted to a certain extent but at the end of the day we aren't going to do anything about it because everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, yes there are some LAE's that'll sign anyones book,there are those that look nito it a bit deeper. In the same way,there are techs that are arseholes and did it for the money and thoses that did the RMA because it was a company recognised qualification, some of who regret it because of the way it is expanding.
But lets not forget the guys in the workshops, who up until recently were highly skill at what they do and have now found themselves in a position where they cannot get an RMA/BMA because of there work area and will be re-graded as mechanics. Before you ask, I'm not from workshops but you must admit, some of thoses guys can do jobs that most of us wouldn't even attempt.
Thats were fighting our own little corner won't work.
Enough Stabbing.
But lets not forget the guys in the workshops, who up until recently were highly skill at what they do and have now found themselves in a position where they cannot get an RMA/BMA because of there work area and will be re-graded as mechanics. Before you ask, I'm not from workshops but you must admit, some of thoses guys can do jobs that most of us wouldn't even attempt.
Thats were fighting our own little corner won't work.
Enough Stabbing.
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Daget:
"It is our knowledge of the whole A/C system we are working on that makes our decisions more than just changing a box but changing it for a reason and knowing what to do next when the box dosnt fix it."
Actually I disagree in some circumstances. Although knowledge of the a/c is required, the MM/ SRM take precedence and tasks are not done or reccomended to be done from memory. (Especially on something like the 777 where you cannot possibly remember everything.) The skill that an LAE possesses is good judgment along with technical knowledge AND interpretation of manuals. (Along with a bit of integrity)
If you get it wrong but have followed the procedures you will have a clear conscience.
Also given the fact that tooling may not be available could be a reason to cave in against good judgement. I always used to resist this and would not do the job until the equip listed in the MM was made available. If you dont and find a way around the job, it makes it worse for the next guy.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by spanners (edited 15 March 2001).]
"It is our knowledge of the whole A/C system we are working on that makes our decisions more than just changing a box but changing it for a reason and knowing what to do next when the box dosnt fix it."
Actually I disagree in some circumstances. Although knowledge of the a/c is required, the MM/ SRM take precedence and tasks are not done or reccomended to be done from memory. (Especially on something like the 777 where you cannot possibly remember everything.) The skill that an LAE possesses is good judgment along with technical knowledge AND interpretation of manuals. (Along with a bit of integrity)
If you get it wrong but have followed the procedures you will have a clear conscience.
Also given the fact that tooling may not be available could be a reason to cave in against good judgement. I always used to resist this and would not do the job until the equip listed in the MM was made available. If you dont and find a way around the job, it makes it worse for the next guy.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by spanners (edited 15 March 2001).]
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Meeeeeeooooooow,
Lard Arse you say , I'll have you know that since giving up all that crap Sutcliffes keep serving , I'm a slimline , 32" waist now . Just ask the x1022 king for confirmation because he never lies .
So to continue the abuse I'll finish by saying that I always thought people who wear glasses looked intelligent , but you're the exception.
[This message has been edited by Ali Crom (edited 15 March 2001).]
Lard Arse you say , I'll have you know that since giving up all that crap Sutcliffes keep serving , I'm a slimline , 32" waist now . Just ask the x1022 king for confirmation because he never lies .
So to continue the abuse I'll finish by saying that I always thought people who wear glasses looked intelligent , but you're the exception.
[This message has been edited by Ali Crom (edited 15 March 2001).]
Guest
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weasel, your saying things that were being said 30 years ago, things dont really change, they only appear to.we all moan about the job, it's a requirement for having a licence. we all talk about leaving but never do, airplanes are in our blood, i think it's a privilege to be a chosen one and to have a licence and being prepared to accept the responsibility for the safety of the pax and aircraft,and yes i'm proud to be a licenced engineer, after all said we all made our own descisions to become licenced, and i have never regretted it (well, only on a daily basis).sure you cant get tooling,spares etc, you get impossible deadlines, were all in the same tent, but thats the job were in, it,s never going to change, and as they say, life was't meant to be easy
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Guest
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Innocent BS. I agree with you about doing the job for the love of it....after all it can't be for the large pay cheque can it?
As for moaning, I have been doing it for 1/4 century as well, but, up until recently our moaning has only gone as far as our seriously corrupt managers who would surely treat us to the sack if we took matters any further. I was hoping that this very website would help the regulators get a real idea of whats going on.I can only imagine that they work on the theory that no news is good news and their MOR 'In tray' is, to them, a real indication of the state of the industry.
If so then they are as sad as the HF exam questions they set us!
It does'nt stop there. Even though the regulators are such hippocrits that they examine (and charge) the living daylights out of us to test our knowledge and issue licences, but do nothing to support us in upholding those standards, we perhaps may find the national press reading this stuff. I'm sure that if serious 'maintenance violations' were aired in public by an over enthusiastic reporter, that would be more effective than our whole QA dept put together.
UK TV shows such programmes as 'Builders from hell'with a series to cover plumbers electricians car dealers and other such business enterprises. It clearly shows that a % of the population are nothing better than unconvicted criminals.Why oh Why do the aviation regulators think that maintenance organisations should be any different? The whole system is so infested with cowboys at least up to middle management.It does make you wonder if the people who write the legislation are doing so purely to make it easier to allocate blame in the event of a catastrophic incident(they don't seem interested in anything less), whilst knowing you do not have a hope in hell of sticking to it. The company management policy seems to be :those with the highest responsibility for safety have the least authority to get what we need to do the job,whilst those with the least knowledge have the most authority (to prevent us getting what we need).If you all need reminding how management regard gambling with safety, try the Challenger incident where the night before launch The MANAGER told the chief ENGINEER to take off his engineer's hat and put his managers hat on and agree that the seals (that the engineer had grave concerns about) were fit for flight. From a TV documentary several months ago. It cannot be stressed too highly that we have to keep up the pressure on cowboy managers to acheive compliance. We should never resort to accepting that our fate as engineers is to be treated like mugs by corrupt managers. Come on, we are better than that.
[This message has been edited by The Weasel (edited 18 March 2001).]
As for moaning, I have been doing it for 1/4 century as well, but, up until recently our moaning has only gone as far as our seriously corrupt managers who would surely treat us to the sack if we took matters any further. I was hoping that this very website would help the regulators get a real idea of whats going on.I can only imagine that they work on the theory that no news is good news and their MOR 'In tray' is, to them, a real indication of the state of the industry.
If so then they are as sad as the HF exam questions they set us!
It does'nt stop there. Even though the regulators are such hippocrits that they examine (and charge) the living daylights out of us to test our knowledge and issue licences, but do nothing to support us in upholding those standards, we perhaps may find the national press reading this stuff. I'm sure that if serious 'maintenance violations' were aired in public by an over enthusiastic reporter, that would be more effective than our whole QA dept put together.
UK TV shows such programmes as 'Builders from hell'with a series to cover plumbers electricians car dealers and other such business enterprises. It clearly shows that a % of the population are nothing better than unconvicted criminals.Why oh Why do the aviation regulators think that maintenance organisations should be any different? The whole system is so infested with cowboys at least up to middle management.It does make you wonder if the people who write the legislation are doing so purely to make it easier to allocate blame in the event of a catastrophic incident(they don't seem interested in anything less), whilst knowing you do not have a hope in hell of sticking to it. The company management policy seems to be :those with the highest responsibility for safety have the least authority to get what we need to do the job,whilst those with the least knowledge have the most authority (to prevent us getting what we need).If you all need reminding how management regard gambling with safety, try the Challenger incident where the night before launch The MANAGER told the chief ENGINEER to take off his engineer's hat and put his managers hat on and agree that the seals (that the engineer had grave concerns about) were fit for flight. From a TV documentary several months ago. It cannot be stressed too highly that we have to keep up the pressure on cowboy managers to acheive compliance. We should never resort to accepting that our fate as engineers is to be treated like mugs by corrupt managers. Come on, we are better than that.
[This message has been edited by The Weasel (edited 18 March 2001).]
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Weasel , How refreshing to see that I'm not the only only one who holds such high regard for DER MANAGEMENT and talking of cowboys , our office now has a sign above the door saying " OK CORRAL " because some of the shift managers have the fastest stamps in the West.
It's a pity us Indians don't have any arrows to fire back , perhaps in the form of a hotline direct to the CAA Sheriff's office with guaranteed anonymity to report the violations that occur so frequently.
All that's needed is the occaisonal snap inspection of some of the paperwork without the prewarning & so , with a bit of delving with the clues they've been given , they're bound to come up trumps.
It's a pity us Indians don't have any arrows to fire back , perhaps in the form of a hotline direct to the CAA Sheriff's office with guaranteed anonymity to report the violations that occur so frequently.
All that's needed is the occaisonal snap inspection of some of the paperwork without the prewarning & so , with a bit of delving with the clues they've been given , they're bound to come up trumps.