LAEs Replaced By RMA "technicians" and matters arising.
 

I am new to this forum and I have only just started reading it, I am an LAE with the major UK airline. Some of my LAE friends have left my work area for pastures new and it raises several concerns I would like to air. Firstly, they are not being replaced and the young recently qualified LAE's can see this so they have left too. Second concern, this leaves the airline I work for filling the gap with RMA (Ramp Maintenance Authorisation) staff who were initially only signing for their own work on standard nil defects turnrounds, the odd wheel change or nav light filament. These guys are being leant on to get JAR66 licences by extending their cover to 2 aircraft types, doing more complex ramp checks and initial parts of duplicate inspections. Most are doing this not more pay, but the threat that they will lose their currently enhanced pay in May 2001 if they do not .As the workload of the remaining LAE's increases, it is increasingly more difficult to monitor the standard of work carried out by the RMA staff, at the same time the QA dept is delegating its responsibility for the standard of the RMA staff to the LAE's. Is this happening anywhere else?
Last point, those who leave, usually due to frustrated ambition or the lure of more money report back that the companies they join are no better than the one they left. They've gone to some well respected airlines only to find the engineering section is a shambles.
Some of the items in the forum suggest that this is the case. Are there any good ones?
Has anyone tried to get into the airline related forum, which is mainly there for the benefit of flight crew? Has anyone suceeded? If so is it worthwhile? I maintain that flight crew have little or no idea about how the engineering staff struggle to produce a good product despite bad management , the bead counters and the submissive attitude of the CAA.
I don't see much evidence of flight crew contributing to this forum, so perhaps we should be able to contribute to their forum at the same time keeping the discussions in the company.
Any thoughts?

From my own observations this is increasingly the situation everwhere and is a symptom of the shortage of engineers. IMHO, the wages and conditions are no longer attractive to staff of the quality needed to ensure airworthiness. The result is a decline in quantity as LAEs vote with their feet and potential recruits decline to join us.

The continuing pressure to reduce air fares inevitably leads to cost cutting. Engineering is seen by accountants as a necessary evil, rather than protecting the value of the company's capital assets (the aircraft) In the immediate future many operators will reach the end of the road in cost cutting attempts and go out of business. We must hope that the reduction in competitiion will allow prices to rise enough to rebuild our industry's infrastructure once again.

While competition is accepted as being good for consumers as it leads to lower prices, what about the situation where the customer is unable to determine for himself the quality of the service? In the area of aviation safety, Regulators are supposed to be looking after the public interest by enforcing standards. In UK the CAA have delegated many of their functions away to quality departments in their own search for cost reductions. Then, those quality departments, also trying to cut costs by staff reductions, delegate their responsiblity down to the supervisors. Everyone passes the buck and standards fall.
When will the public pay for their cheap flights through increased casualty rates? I don't know, but I sure want to be out of the business before the planes start falling out of the sky. The world thinks that terrorism is the greatest single threat to public safety in the air, but I'm very much afraid they are in for rude awakening!

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Through difficulties to the cinema

Blacksheep, my sentiments exactly. So why won't anyone listen to us? Do we give off fumes that tarnish the gold braid of pilot's uniforms? Are our concerns too complicated for the press to report?

Might be a good time to raise public awareness of these issues. The very fact we write to this forum means it is in the public domain anyway.

I agree with what has been written above.

It seems to me that no one organisation in the UK has got it right. I am line maintenance staff (only 30 years experience so I probably don't count for much). BA does contract work , I have earned mega money in overtime trying to get aircraft out on time and BA hasn't made any money on the deal. One thing I learnt was that hangar based staff work at a different pace to line maintenance staff.
We had the hangar based staff telling us to slow down, so what do I make of that? In perfect condtions with all the tooling and equipment it takes longer to change components than during a turnround with the rain pouring down. The incentive to get the job done should be the same. I've been in major overhaul, I know, it takes longer with the docking all around, other people working in the area have to be considered etc. However the "stop work its tea up", the endless waits in stores for tooling and materials (usually chatting about golf) is still lingering on. It came to a point that hangar managers were praying line maitenance guys would be in on overtime to get the job done and save face.
My main point is that the aviation engineering scene has some lazy b~#£&*Ds earning good money doing little to earn it knowing that the company can't get shot of them because the CAA is keeping an eye on the fleet to engineer ratio. Companies are scared to get rid of them because there isn't a queue of
qualified people to take their place. Staff travel as a perk has cost airlines much in the long term it has attracted the wrong type of person, the parasite, RAF, barrack room lawyer types on a RAF pension, who are happy to work (or should I say attend) for crap money. It really annoys me that aircraft engineering isn't promoted as the great job it can be. What is JAR66 doing? It's making it even less attractive to join the profession and attain LAE status. RMA seems to be the future unless Joe Public wakes up to the fact that you only get what you pay for.

L.A.E.- Who are we kidding?
We are not engineers! Engineers go to University for years to obtain a degree. They come out to the big , bad world and get a job that pays more, for less effort than we put in.
The truth is "we are not engineers".
We are making a big deal of our job, fixing a/c is not hard.
In the states guys come out of Pizza Hut, get an A&P and sign off the complete a/c. Some of these a/c put in more hrs/cycles than a/c this side of the pond and I'm afraid they are not falling from the sky!
Don't get me wrong, I love my job. I have full avionics cover on 73/75/76/320/330 which I am bloody proud of, it was a hard slog and yes standards are dropping but only because they were too high in the first place. JAR is addressing this situation and yes we will become technicians but the truth is we were never engineers in the first place.

Near enuf,
You're absolutely right! We call ourselves "engineers" cos Mechanics are semi-skilled (at least to the RAF types!)
On another tack....
Recently, while talking at home about an Avionics snag (Sad!) my wife asked "Why is an Avionics engineer needed to change a black box??"
Pray tell - is it because rather than having higher standards this side of the pond, we just like to make life more difficult?

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The Stamp is mightier than the Toolbox!!

"We are making a big deal of our job, fixing a/c is not hard.
In the states guys come out of Pizza Hut, get an A&P and sign off the complete a/c. Some of these a/c put in more hrs/cycles than a/c this side of the pond and I'm afraid they are not falling from the sky!"

I think there is a difference between signing something off and fixing the actual problem. Most of the "Pizza Hut" mechanics stay away from write-ups that would make them stand center stage, such as gear and flight control problems.

You forgot to mention our MacDonalds managers.


[This message has been edited by redtail (edited 08 July 2000).]

Tim-ing - in your post about RMA, you forgot to mention who signed the work experiecne books for these mechanics to get their first approval ("Cabin" if I remember correctly).
So to put the record straight the reason BA has lots of mechanics with RMP is because the BA LAEs signed their worksheets.

Shortage of LAEs at BA, low status at BA, low pay at BA for new starters etc all down to the LAEs at BA.

Now you have the workload charter guys have had for years.

BA LAEs created this situation, when they refused to join with BALPA and instead took a large one off pay rise.

Yes Multi-X, I thoroughly agree with your last posting. I might make the comment that it was management grade TMG LAE's who signed the workbooks of staff seeking to hold RMA status, there were only a couple of these guys in each area and for reasons best known to themselves they did so knowing that the books were works of fiction. Now that in recent months the Quality Dept has delegated the responsibility for this to non management LAEs and have dropped the requirement to scrutinise the workbooks themselves. The RMA staff are having a harder job filling in their books in the first place and then getting them endorsed. I hope any BA LAEs who might read this will think long and hard before taking on the role of the Quality Dept.
I would also point out that not everyone has accepted the supplemented LAE status as this opens the door to management leaning on you to go along with their plan.

I think that the LAE supplement had to be taken when offered because most others accepted the offer and to not accept would have left you out in the open with the same job being paid less than the next guy who would be doing the same anyway. I would never have stamped the PER of anyone whom I suspected to have dubious skills. However, if the union had had a position on the supplement I would have gone along with whatever was reccomended. However, most union people at my base were RMA holders and had other interests, and I never knew if the union had a position on this.

In my area you had to apply for the LAE supplement, and then, if your local manager agreed that you deserved it, you got it. In many cases this did not mean more money in your hand at the end of the month. Some actually recieved less due to increased pension contribution. I would get £18 a month if I accepted it before tax. I choose not to accept it until it suits me.
As for the union when has the LAE ever been backed by any of the BA unions even less cared about. Also any attempt to get another association or union recognised by BA has to date failed.

Just remember if you take the BA LAE supplement, you are leaving yourself open to all kinds of underhand management pressure.

I refused to take it. I read the handout very carefully and actually took legal advice on the matter. If you want a few bob extra, be prepared to suffer the concequences.

The "Blameless Culture" within BA is about to end. It's going to be your **** on the line.

My opinion of the RMA issue.........in such a safety concious industry, how can you justify having ex painters, refurbishers and MT mechanics certifying aircraft after minimal training?
What other industry does this? Would you call a bricklayer when your house needs rewiring?

I don't blame the guys for getting the RMA, it's good money considering a great deal of them are a load of idiots without a single professional bone in their heads.

Why did some of us work bloody hard through an apprenticeship when the bloke next to you didn't, has no formal qualifications and earns the same money.

Don't tell me......the clever ones get licenced and go on to be ............i think this takes us back to the first post.

I dont think BA ever had a so called 'blameless culture', although they liked to spout on about it.

Near enuff isn't good enough, I don't think. It's comment's like that that allow the bean counters to cut back on pay and conditions. How hard is it to fly an aeroplane these days, and how much cash do those guys get paid? I'll remember that on my third night shift on the trot at 4 am when I have to decide whether to release an electric aircraft or not after an intermittent flt control sys snag with 350 odd people on board. I suppose what you class yourself as depends on how much effort you put in to get your licences, how current you are and how professional your attitude is. Maybe enuff said should take that burger management job, as you can get away with not cooking a burger properly..........

Avo Prodd,

I'd love to answer you but I just don't know what an "electric aircraft" that carries 350 pax is?
Please anybody enlighten me!

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So that you may not be the martyred slaves of Time,
get drunk, get drunk,
and never pause for rest!
With wine, poetry, or vitrtue,
as you choose!"

I'm new to this forum so please forgive me for butting in, but I've been searching through the threads and came across this one and am amazed at the school boy attitudes of some of the posts.
I AM an RMA holder in 'The British Airline' and I'm getting pretty fed up with the bad press that RMA holders are getting.
Yes there are some bad eggs with RMA's, but you can't tell me that their aren't LAE's that are just as bad. Most LAE's are quite happy to sit on there arses until they have to sign the log,and yes they are paid for the privilege. I haven't seen many posts by RMA holders about that, and it doesn't really bother me. This DOES :

how can you justify having ex painters, refurbishers and MT mechanics certifying aircraft after minimal training?

Most RMA holders HAVE done formal apprenticeships, probably like yourselves and some are using it as a stepping stone to licences, but to tar us all with that brush is unfair, you were once a technician (and soon will be again ;0)Everyone has to start somewhere and you lot seem to be forgetting that. You guys did sign our books and for that I am grateful, wouldn't you rather we signed for our own work,that way you wouldn't have to put your coats on ! (JOKE)
At the end of the day you are all grown up, and YOU have the choice to sign someones book, you can tell if that person is capable of signing for their 21 items and most of you are quite happy for them to sign for a ramp check. Why should we do our licences when there is no incentive ?

Now that YOU have just tarred us all with the same brush!!! Why don't you get off your 'arse' as you put it and get your Licences? There you go now you have an incentive!

Knuckle,

Think about it this way - are you being paid enough for the liability you assume when signing for your limited tasks? No licence does not necessarily mean no liability - a CRS is a CRS whether signing a Daily or component replacement.



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Bus429 - the pilot's pal!

In reply to the last mails, yes I may have slapped a few coats on, just look back at what you guys have said about RMA holders. In answer to incentives, If I stay with B.A why should I go for my B1 licence rather than keep my protected rights under RMA or get an A licence. I'd get no more pay well maybe a few quid and from the sounds of the posts here you lot are getting SUCH a bad deal as LAEs why should I ?