Know your place boys and girls!
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I'll just post it hear for all to see!!!
"I have no axe to grind with the engineers, the vast majority I have met are hard working, professional and good at their job. there is, however, a job hierarchy within every profession and most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them. No malice, just reality"
This is the sort of opinion that does nobody any good whatsoever. Personally I'm proud to be an engineer. You have to prove you've got brains to get an engineering apprenticeship, having loads of money just doesn't count!!HeHeheHe!!
"I have no axe to grind with the engineers, the vast majority I have met are hard working, professional and good at their job. there is, however, a job hierarchy within every profession and most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them. No malice, just reality"
This is the sort of opinion that does nobody any good whatsoever. Personally I'm proud to be an engineer. You have to prove you've got brains to get an engineering apprenticeship, having loads of money just doesn't count!!HeHeheHe!!
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Thats 'cos a monkey can't write "Ground tested and found serviceable". 
Seriously though, I don't have respect for groups of people, like engineers or pilots. I reserve that for individuals, and I have the good fortune to work with several guys whose judgement I trust, and whose guidance I rely on.
But the bottom line is that the skipper signs the tech log to accept your work, not vice-versa. There is an implicit heirachy there, is there not? That doesn't mean I think I'm gods gift, or that you are lowly peasants, its just the way it is.
CPB
Seriously though, I don't have respect for groups of people, like engineers or pilots. I reserve that for individuals, and I have the good fortune to work with several guys whose judgement I trust, and whose guidance I rely on.
But the bottom line is that the skipper signs the tech log to accept your work, not vice-versa. There is an implicit heirachy there, is there not? That doesn't mean I think I'm gods gift, or that you are lowly peasants, its just the way it is.
CPB
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Sorry 'Pit Bull' but you DO not accept my work, you accept the Aircraft overall, who are you to query my work anyways?
Can you inspect a signed off rudder pcu change with panel sealed close or a main landing gear change with swing test carried out etc. I don't think so.
So my friend you HAVE to accept the aircraft as fit for flight unless you can really prove other wise. Or your company will send you packing!
cheeky bloke!
Can you inspect a signed off rudder pcu change with panel sealed close or a main landing gear change with swing test carried out etc. I don't think so.
So my friend you HAVE to accept the aircraft as fit for flight unless you can really prove other wise. Or your company will send you packing!
cheeky bloke!
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Who am I to query your work?
The guy who dies if you've got it wrong. Fair enough?
Your absolutely right that I can not cross check everything you do, I don't have time, the tools, or in some cases the skill (I should point out I am also an engineer, I just don't work as one at present). But thats why I have faith in the Engineers that I work with.
Whereas, it is interesting to note from the post above, that you guys think of pilots as (1) having money rather than brains (Schmite), (2) flying as being too easy (dogs body) (it may quite often be, but not always, of that you can rest assured), (3) Unnecessary (lame) and (4) being equivalent to monkeys (marcels minder). Finally we have Hispeedtape whose idea of a civil conversation is to tell me to 'Sod Off'.
I view Engineers as a vital part of the team, but it doesn't look like that view is reciprocated by some of you. Lets assume the comments above were in jest and leave it at that, eh?
Although I do have faith in the guys, its still common sense to cross check when possible. And there have been times, not many I'm happy to say, when the aircraft has not been in an acceptable state, in spite of protestations to the contrary. When that happens, its down to me. My call. The buck stops with me. I am the last guy that can intervene and prevent the aircraft from leaving terra firma in an unsafe condition. And I've had to do it.
Now I'm really sorry (I mean it - I'm not being sarcastic) if that somehow seems to offend some of you, but thats the way it is.
Finally:
A/C slave, as you say I accept the aircraft. To suggest that I can somehow accept the aircraft without implicitly accepting any work that has been carried out on it is pure semantics. Anyhow, I also sign pages that only have maintenance action. And your arguement can be used against you. When I write a tech log report of routine testing (say engine overspeed test) how can you check my work? Does that stop you countersigning? Thought not.
Hispeedtape. You're right, I can't take it until you release it. However, come hell or high water, you can not force me to accept it.
Its a team effort. I appreciate good engineers, and from what i can tell they appreciate detailed fault write ups that ease their fault finding workload.
But the guy that carries the can when it all goes to rat**** is the guy with the moral authority to say 'I'm sorry, but I'm not flying that aeroplane'.
Regards,
CPB
The guy who dies if you've got it wrong. Fair enough?
Your absolutely right that I can not cross check everything you do, I don't have time, the tools, or in some cases the skill (I should point out I am also an engineer, I just don't work as one at present). But thats why I have faith in the Engineers that I work with.
Whereas, it is interesting to note from the post above, that you guys think of pilots as (1) having money rather than brains (Schmite), (2) flying as being too easy (dogs body) (it may quite often be, but not always, of that you can rest assured), (3) Unnecessary (lame) and (4) being equivalent to monkeys (marcels minder). Finally we have Hispeedtape whose idea of a civil conversation is to tell me to 'Sod Off'.
I view Engineers as a vital part of the team, but it doesn't look like that view is reciprocated by some of you. Lets assume the comments above were in jest and leave it at that, eh?
Although I do have faith in the guys, its still common sense to cross check when possible. And there have been times, not many I'm happy to say, when the aircraft has not been in an acceptable state, in spite of protestations to the contrary. When that happens, its down to me. My call. The buck stops with me. I am the last guy that can intervene and prevent the aircraft from leaving terra firma in an unsafe condition. And I've had to do it.
Now I'm really sorry (I mean it - I'm not being sarcastic) if that somehow seems to offend some of you, but thats the way it is.
Finally:
A/C slave, as you say I accept the aircraft. To suggest that I can somehow accept the aircraft without implicitly accepting any work that has been carried out on it is pure semantics. Anyhow, I also sign pages that only have maintenance action. And your arguement can be used against you. When I write a tech log report of routine testing (say engine overspeed test) how can you check my work? Does that stop you countersigning? Thought not.
Hispeedtape. You're right, I can't take it until you release it. However, come hell or high water, you can not force me to accept it.
Its a team effort. I appreciate good engineers, and from what i can tell they appreciate detailed fault write ups that ease their fault finding workload.
But the guy that carries the can when it all goes to rat**** is the guy with the moral authority to say 'I'm sorry, but I'm not flying that aeroplane'.
Regards,
CPB
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CPB - you have to look at pilot related forums to realise how vitriolic exchanges get! "Sod-off"is mild and aggression is rare here.
I appreciate your point of view but people like Garcia only seem to confirm the view some engineers have of some pilots.
I appreciate your point of view but people like Garcia only seem to confirm the view some engineers have of some pilots.
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Capt Pit Bull,
All I pointed out was the truth, the technology has been around for many years, to build an airliner with NO pilots at all. The manufacturers spent a fortune on this technology in order to remove, what they consider the weakest link, the pilot. I am SURE that you and 99.99999% of pilots do an excellent job, however more aircraft have been lost in recent times from pilot error than any other cause, tragic accidents where pilots think they know better than the latest technology. The ONLY reason this has NOT been done, is the manufacturers know the public will not fly in a pilotless airliner. Some manufacturers wanted an Engineer (or 2) on board instead, a computer expert/s with a batch of spare computers, others go along with the old joke, what is the best 2 man crew to have, answer 1 pilot and 1 dog, the pilot is there to feed the dog and the dog is there to bite the pilot IF he touches ANYTHING....
Also things must be different in Europe, but I have been in the Industry for over 38 years, over 33 of those as a LAME, and NEVER EVER in all that time has any pilot signed for my work. Here anyway, the tech log is presented to the crew signed by the LAME. It is obviously normally accepted as is, the Captain does NOT sign for the aircraft after the LAME. IF the Captain is NOT happy with the aircraft he can of course refuse it, but he must raise a defect in the tech log, thus invalidating the previous entry by an LAME.
The FINAL clearance even then though will still be, as always, the LAME, but as I said it must be different in Europe?
Best regards,
"lame"
All I pointed out was the truth, the technology has been around for many years, to build an airliner with NO pilots at all. The manufacturers spent a fortune on this technology in order to remove, what they consider the weakest link, the pilot. I am SURE that you and 99.99999% of pilots do an excellent job, however more aircraft have been lost in recent times from pilot error than any other cause, tragic accidents where pilots think they know better than the latest technology. The ONLY reason this has NOT been done, is the manufacturers know the public will not fly in a pilotless airliner. Some manufacturers wanted an Engineer (or 2) on board instead, a computer expert/s with a batch of spare computers, others go along with the old joke, what is the best 2 man crew to have, answer 1 pilot and 1 dog, the pilot is there to feed the dog and the dog is there to bite the pilot IF he touches ANYTHING....
Also things must be different in Europe, but I have been in the Industry for over 38 years, over 33 of those as a LAME, and NEVER EVER in all that time has any pilot signed for my work. Here anyway, the tech log is presented to the crew signed by the LAME. It is obviously normally accepted as is, the Captain does NOT sign for the aircraft after the LAME. IF the Captain is NOT happy with the aircraft he can of course refuse it, but he must raise a defect in the tech log, thus invalidating the previous entry by an LAME.
The FINAL clearance even then though will still be, as always, the LAME, but as I said it must be different in Europe?
Best regards,
"lame"
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Come on guys,
Captain Poodle has got some valid points. Pilots donīt have as much indepth knowledge about maintaining an aircraft as we do, but we donīt know sh%t about flying them, really.
As for the arrogant attitude some pilots show engineers think about this, how many times have you told a cleaner or loader that they did a great job and that their work was essential and appreciated, because thats what this argument is really about. Flight engineers being arrogant, now there is a screaming session waiting to happen.
Brgds
Doc
Captain Poodle has got some valid points. Pilots donīt have as much indepth knowledge about maintaining an aircraft as we do, but we donīt know sh%t about flying them, really.
As for the arrogant attitude some pilots show engineers think about this, how many times have you told a cleaner or loader that they did a great job and that their work was essential and appreciated, because thats what this argument is really about. Flight engineers being arrogant, now there is a screaming session waiting to happen.
Brgds
Doc
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Doc,
I agree with you, everyone has their job to do, and everyone is necessary, just some have much better pay and conditions than others.
I really hate this arragant attitude of some pilots, NOT most pilots but some, because of what you said in your second paragraph.
I have always mixed with the cleaners and porters, as well as pilots and others, to the extent at one airline I was chastised by management several times, for being far too close to the cleaners as in managements opinion they were below Engineers. That is why I absolutely hate this crap about pecking orders, or anyone being better than anyone else...... I take everyone as I find them, be they fellow Engineer, Cleaner or Check Captain.......
Best regards to ALL,
"lame"
I agree with you, everyone has their job to do, and everyone is necessary, just some have much better pay and conditions than others.
I really hate this arragant attitude of some pilots, NOT most pilots but some, because of what you said in your second paragraph.
I have always mixed with the cleaners and porters, as well as pilots and others, to the extent at one airline I was chastised by management several times, for being far too close to the cleaners as in managements opinion they were below Engineers. That is why I absolutely hate this crap about pecking orders, or anyone being better than anyone else...... I take everyone as I find them, be they fellow Engineer, Cleaner or Check Captain.......
Best regards to ALL,
"lame"
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Lame,
Thanks for agreeing with me, I was beginning to think that I was the only one that thought everyone was needed. I too have been slagged for fratenizing with cleaners, loaders etc. but unfortunately it was by my fellow engineers.
I have started and run several outstations all over the world, and I have always tried my best to be , if not freindly, then at least civilized with everyone involved with my aircraft, and I have yey to come across a loader, cleaner,security officer, redcap etc. that wouldnīt give me a helping hand or that I couldnīt give some constructive critizism. The same goes for crews, I always try to be friendly with them, and I rarely, allthough it does happen occationally, come across a complete bast%rd.
What I am trying to say is, that everyone IS needed, and no one is irreplaceble, not pilots, not cabincrew, engineers, redcaps or anyone it is a team efford. The sooner we all realize that, the sooner we can improve the allmighty efficiency and safety.
Brgds
Doc
Thanks for agreeing with me, I was beginning to think that I was the only one that thought everyone was needed. I too have been slagged for fratenizing with cleaners, loaders etc. but unfortunately it was by my fellow engineers.
I have started and run several outstations all over the world, and I have always tried my best to be , if not freindly, then at least civilized with everyone involved with my aircraft, and I have yey to come across a loader, cleaner,security officer, redcap etc. that wouldnīt give me a helping hand or that I couldnīt give some constructive critizism. The same goes for crews, I always try to be friendly with them, and I rarely, allthough it does happen occationally, come across a complete bast%rd.
What I am trying to say is, that everyone IS needed, and no one is irreplaceble, not pilots, not cabincrew, engineers, redcaps or anyone it is a team efford. The sooner we all realize that, the sooner we can improve the allmighty efficiency and safety.
Brgds
Doc
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Come on guys. Capt pitbull is talking nothing but common sense!
He is not putting himself on a pedastal and you are trying to knock him off it, even tough it dosen't exist!
He, like us is mearly another vital link in the industry.
Your comments here sound Garcias, but from an engineering point of view. Which goes to show that there are these premadonnas in both
roles.
Doc...you took the words out of my mouth.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: spannerhead ]
He is not putting himself on a pedastal and you are trying to knock him off it, even tough it dosen't exist!
He, like us is mearly another vital link in the industry.
Your comments here sound Garcias, but from an engineering point of view. Which goes to show that there are these premadonnas in both
roles.
Doc...you took the words out of my mouth.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: spannerhead ]