Know your place boys and girls!
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Why build pilotless aircraft when Ryanair and Southwest can charge you to fly them?
If your remotely maintained aircraft is an A320, what the fu*k am I doing out in the rain at 4 am. If it could really fix itself it wouldn’t break in the first place would it.
After a hard day avoiding stationary objects and saving the day with your decision making, or checklist to the rest of us, don’t worry about those who are allowed to fix the bloody things, it all happens automatically now days.
If your remotely maintained aircraft is an A320, what the fu*k am I doing out in the rain at 4 am. If it could really fix itself it wouldn’t break in the first place would it.
After a hard day avoiding stationary objects and saving the day with your decision making, or checklist to the rest of us, don’t worry about those who are allowed to fix the bloody things, it all happens automatically now days.
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Secret Squirrel,
I thought all this had been amicably put to rest? Here we go again........
I did NOT say that I was particularly in favour of the idea, OR that I would gladly fly in one........
I was at one manufacturer (had better not name names I guess) in the early 1980s and at a different one in the early 1990s. At BOTH of these manufacturers, during talks with their senior engineering people, both groups stated that their personal preference would be to take pilots out of the aircraft, as they are the weakest link nowadays. Both groups also said they were confident that they could build such aircraft, but KNEW that the travelling public would NOT have it.
You would probably find the pilots at these manufacturers would NOT agree, but I didn't get to talk to them.
Now I am truly sorry IF you do NOT believe it, but that is what happened....
Best regards,
"lame"
I thought all this had been amicably put to rest? Here we go again........
I did NOT say that I was particularly in favour of the idea, OR that I would gladly fly in one........
I was at one manufacturer (had better not name names I guess) in the early 1980s and at a different one in the early 1990s. At BOTH of these manufacturers, during talks with their senior engineering people, both groups stated that their personal preference would be to take pilots out of the aircraft, as they are the weakest link nowadays. Both groups also said they were confident that they could build such aircraft, but KNEW that the travelling public would NOT have it.
You would probably find the pilots at these manufacturers would NOT agree, but I didn't get to talk to them.
Now I am truly sorry IF you do NOT believe it, but that is what happened....
Best regards,
"lame"
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Avmech
You show an incredible lack of awareness for someone from a body of people which claims higher intelligence. You obviously missed my point completely. You have the leisure to figure out why the link doesn't engage, as well as the expertise. You can saunter over to your van and get a book out if you need to. We, on the other hand have to figure it out as well as obeying air traffic, following a profile, getting the aircraft to do what we want, making sure that the checks are done, avoiding obstacles and the ground!. Not that your example is particularly dangerous; I can fly manually and often do. However, the point is that when things go wrong and you are distracted from your usual rythm, this is when things get missed and you may get a snowball effect. As I said before, you only ever get to hear about the times when we get it wrong and if you think about it proportionately in terms of the number of worldwide airborne technical difficulties, I think that we do rather well.
The main reason you don't hear of any engineering related fatalities these days is because it's an easier variable to control and in the main very much a black and white decision process. You're all very competent, I'm sure, but you never feel the pressure like we do sometimes.
All this wasn't said in order to make us seem better than you in any way at all. You have your job and we have ours; neither would have a job without the other but it does rankle a bit when engineers sneer at us quoting accident figures when they couldn't cause a major accident except willfully. In short, humans can't be trusted to do a good job 100% of the time, but in the air it has to be a calculated and accepted risk.
BUS
They're all lined up, ready for you.
You show an incredible lack of awareness for someone from a body of people which claims higher intelligence. You obviously missed my point completely. You have the leisure to figure out why the link doesn't engage, as well as the expertise. You can saunter over to your van and get a book out if you need to. We, on the other hand have to figure it out as well as obeying air traffic, following a profile, getting the aircraft to do what we want, making sure that the checks are done, avoiding obstacles and the ground!. Not that your example is particularly dangerous; I can fly manually and often do. However, the point is that when things go wrong and you are distracted from your usual rythm, this is when things get missed and you may get a snowball effect. As I said before, you only ever get to hear about the times when we get it wrong and if you think about it proportionately in terms of the number of worldwide airborne technical difficulties, I think that we do rather well.
The main reason you don't hear of any engineering related fatalities these days is because it's an easier variable to control and in the main very much a black and white decision process. You're all very competent, I'm sure, but you never feel the pressure like we do sometimes.
All this wasn't said in order to make us seem better than you in any way at all. You have your job and we have ours; neither would have a job without the other but it does rankle a bit when engineers sneer at us quoting accident figures when they couldn't cause a major accident except willfully. In short, humans can't be trusted to do a good job 100% of the time, but in the air it has to be a calculated and accepted risk.
BUS
They're all lined up, ready for you.
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So much for "the pilots point of view" and all that nonsence spoken recently. This is just a directionless brawl that will have no outcome.
Haven't you got anything better to discuss than some garbage about pilotless aircraft??
I mean, really, the public won't have it even it it was feasable, and it must be some way off considering the crappy little drones the military use are probably cutting edge technology at the moment.
Haven't you got anything better to discuss than some garbage about pilotless aircraft??
I mean, really, the public won't have it even it it was feasable, and it must be some way off considering the crappy little drones the military use are probably cutting edge technology at the moment.
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Secret Squirrel- just to clarify, the seperation of engine maintenance on the Avro RJ that you mentioned was not put in place as a result of the Queens Flight incident. It was in fact in place prior to that date and was the result of the implementation of prudent engineering practices, back in the very early days of the company's existance. As in any walk of life prudence is king (or Queen).
Pilots' Pal
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Fellow engineers - type carefully and brush up on your spelling and grammar (I expect brick-bats for this one!). People like SS will pick up on it and believe it confirms their notion that they are superior!
Squirrel,
You demonstrate a lack of knowledge concerning the tasks carried out by engineers. Several accidents in the UK and the rest of the world over the last 12 years have proved that engineers are as susceptible to human error as pilots. Engineers, particularly line engineers, work in a very dynamic environment and mistakes do get made. A night transit with a charter airline in the middle of summer will prove how hard they have to work, and think, in the space of an hour (and often on their own). Next time you harrass an engineer by claiming you have a tight slot (!?), consider how responsible his/her task is.
By the way, I'd just like to say I respect politicians more than I respect pilots and that's saying something!
Squirrel,
You demonstrate a lack of knowledge concerning the tasks carried out by engineers. Several accidents in the UK and the rest of the world over the last 12 years have proved that engineers are as susceptible to human error as pilots. Engineers, particularly line engineers, work in a very dynamic environment and mistakes do get made. A night transit with a charter airline in the middle of summer will prove how hard they have to work, and think, in the space of an hour (and often on their own). Next time you harrass an engineer by claiming you have a tight slot (!?), consider how responsible his/her task is.
By the way, I'd just like to say I respect politicians more than I respect pilots and that's saying something!
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To Inspector Gadget and all others engineers:-
Sorry that I've taken so long to make this posting, the thread has only just come to my attention (I've been working hard recently).
The comment I made on the R+N forum regarding engineers was poorly written and didn't portray what I was actually thinking at the time - The Guvnor had wound me up and I should have chosen my words more carefully.
As I said, I have nothing but the utmost respect for all the engineers out there, they are undoubtably part of the front-line team that is essential to the running of all airlines.
What I was trying to say (very poorly) was that the system has placed them below pilot's when it comes to the question of remuneration. That system is flawed in more ways than one. The skill and technical ability of all the engineers I work with is, without a doubt, comparable with that of pilot's (and considerably more in many cases). Apart from the questionable pay increment to compensate for jet-lag, I see no reason why engineers are not paid a similar salary.
Apologies to all - I'll just get my coat.
Sorry that I've taken so long to make this posting, the thread has only just come to my attention (I've been working hard recently).
The comment I made on the R+N forum regarding engineers was poorly written and didn't portray what I was actually thinking at the time - The Guvnor had wound me up and I should have chosen my words more carefully.
As I said, I have nothing but the utmost respect for all the engineers out there, they are undoubtably part of the front-line team that is essential to the running of all airlines.
What I was trying to say (very poorly) was that the system has placed them below pilot's when it comes to the question of remuneration. That system is flawed in more ways than one. The skill and technical ability of all the engineers I work with is, without a doubt, comparable with that of pilot's (and considerably more in many cases). Apart from the questionable pay increment to compensate for jet-lag, I see no reason why engineers are not paid a similar salary.
Apologies to all - I'll just get my coat.
Cunning Artificer
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Not quite so Alfredo old chap. As I have mentioned elsewhere in Aircrew Notices, I calculate that over my working lifetime I will have amassed a greater amount of wealth than the average flying machine operator.
As to pecking orders, one cannot compare Engineering with Operations. For instance, B747 Airline Captains are at the top of a Flight Operations pecking order. Maintenance Engineers (or Technicians or Mechanics as the case may be) who are still plying their trade down on the flight line on night shift are somewhat below the top of the Engineering pecking order. Comparing Pilots to Engineers is really as pointless as comparing apples to oranges. The majority of pilots never get to meet an engineer.
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As to pecking orders, one cannot compare Engineering with Operations. For instance, B747 Airline Captains are at the top of a Flight Operations pecking order. Maintenance Engineers (or Technicians or Mechanics as the case may be) who are still plying their trade down on the flight line on night shift are somewhat below the top of the Engineering pecking order. Comparing Pilots to Engineers is really as pointless as comparing apples to oranges. The majority of pilots never get to meet an engineer.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Bus 429
The esteem in which you hold us is well documented on this website. You obviously feel the need to reassure yourself of your convictions at every turn: a bit like some of our straight cabin crew who feel the urge to mention the words 'girlfriend' and 'shag' as often as they can; and preferably in the same sentence!
I never said that engineers don't make mistakes, or that they are not serious. What I said was that the power to make catastrophic mistakes has been all but eliminated. Neither am I so ignorant (in spite of what you may think) as to think you are never under pressure; I'm sure that you do have a tight schedule to keep quite often. So what? If maintenance hits a snag, that's the schedule out of the window, no question; safety first.
Quite how you can equate this style of pressure to ours is beyond me, but there again, I am a pilot and as such not mentally equipped to grasp the finer points of your superior thought processes.
topman
Thankyou for the clarification. I wasn't sure but it does surprise me that the RAF, renowned for their quality and training, should have overlooked such an obvious consideration.
As a final thought, and this is targetted specifically at BUS 429; how many engineers do you know who were airline pilots before? (not including re-incarnations!); I know plenty of pilots who were engineers before. What then, does our profession have that yours doesn't? It's not necessarily the money as Blacksheep has dispelled the myth. So, what do you think, bus. Yawwwwn, do tell me zzzzzzzzzzzz....
The esteem in which you hold us is well documented on this website. You obviously feel the need to reassure yourself of your convictions at every turn: a bit like some of our straight cabin crew who feel the urge to mention the words 'girlfriend' and 'shag' as often as they can; and preferably in the same sentence!
I never said that engineers don't make mistakes, or that they are not serious. What I said was that the power to make catastrophic mistakes has been all but eliminated. Neither am I so ignorant (in spite of what you may think) as to think you are never under pressure; I'm sure that you do have a tight schedule to keep quite often. So what? If maintenance hits a snag, that's the schedule out of the window, no question; safety first.
Quite how you can equate this style of pressure to ours is beyond me, but there again, I am a pilot and as such not mentally equipped to grasp the finer points of your superior thought processes.
topman
Thankyou for the clarification. I wasn't sure but it does surprise me that the RAF, renowned for their quality and training, should have overlooked such an obvious consideration.
As a final thought, and this is targetted specifically at BUS 429; how many engineers do you know who were airline pilots before? (not including re-incarnations!); I know plenty of pilots who were engineers before. What then, does our profession have that yours doesn't? It's not necessarily the money as Blacksheep has dispelled the myth. So, what do you think, bus. Yawwwwn, do tell me zzzzzzzzzzzz....
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This argument has been going on since Orville Wright's engine dropped a piston ring at Kittyhawk, Its life folks, so why dont we drop this thread and go and get one 
Mine's a large Malt & where's the Sheep?
Mine's a large Malt & where's the Sheep?
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Secret squirrel,
I think one of the main reasons why Engineers become pilots is because pilots are treated with much greater prestige.
Being a pilot is deemed as a much more glamorous lifestyle than being an engineer.
However,as an engineer myself, I have no ambitions to take up flying as a profession. I reserve my private time to flying hang gliders which is exhilarating and keeps me happy. Having been in the flight deck of a passenger jet many times I have no doubt that I would find the job a bit too sedentary for my tastes.
I think one of the main reasons why Engineers become pilots is because pilots are treated with much greater prestige.
Being a pilot is deemed as a much more glamorous lifestyle than being an engineer.
However,as an engineer myself, I have no ambitions to take up flying as a profession. I reserve my private time to flying hang gliders which is exhilarating and keeps me happy. Having been in the flight deck of a passenger jet many times I have no doubt that I would find the job a bit too sedentary for my tastes.
Cunning Artificer
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Orville and Wilbur were the first pilots to successfully control and fly a practical powered flying machine. Only, however, after first designing and building the machine.
Interestingly, they subsequently considered themselves to be engineers rather than aircrew - the machine's the thing. I've no idea how much the Wright Flyer cost but it was obviously worth it...
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Interestingly, they subsequently considered themselves to be engineers rather than aircrew - the machine's the thing. I've no idea how much the Wright Flyer cost but it was obviously worth it...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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I'll say it again for the hardcore ppruners, who just said a few weeks ago "It's really good to have a pilots point view".
Really. Sounds like we are being put right in our place. This is what pilots think of us. If pprune is a pilots penthouse, then we are in the potting shed at the bottom of the garden.
Really. Sounds like we are being put right in our place. This is what pilots think of us. If pprune is a pilots penthouse, then we are in the potting shed at the bottom of the garden.
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Only one clarification for Capt Pit Bull.
Here at my current employer, the captain signs for the aircraft, but this is not for the work the engineer does on it, far from it!
He signs for the responsibility for the aircraft. Up to that point, from whence the previous crew signed the incoming log book, we, the lowly serfs actually had the onerous responsibility.
Oh, the number of times I have heard the whinging about this and that that did not work, and all I say to the Captain is :
Just write in the log that you are not willing to take the aircraft and I will happily sit it on the ground and fix it for you.
Only ever had one guy do it, and he was right to as well, but as an engineer, I could not arbitrarily ground it, even if I was not altogether happy with what the previous station had done. Even god has limits it seems.
Here at my current employer, the captain signs for the aircraft, but this is not for the work the engineer does on it, far from it!
He signs for the responsibility for the aircraft. Up to that point, from whence the previous crew signed the incoming log book, we, the lowly serfs actually had the onerous responsibility.
Oh, the number of times I have heard the whinging about this and that that did not work, and all I say to the Captain is :
Just write in the log that you are not willing to take the aircraft and I will happily sit it on the ground and fix it for you.
Only ever had one guy do it, and he was right to as well, but as an engineer, I could not arbitrarily ground it, even if I was not altogether happy with what the previous station had done. Even god has limits it seems.
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I know a story about a pilot who thought he would take a plane when the eng told him it need some more checks. The plane was loaded and ready to depart other than one final check, the eng told the pilot what was happening but while the eng was back in the libary the pilot had the doors closed and pushed back and tried to go flying. The eng made a phone call to the tower and told them what had happened the a/c was then refused permission to take off and ordered back to the terminal. The pilot tried to argue that he was happy with the a/c so it was OK but no dice the tower refused him.
I could list many other examples of pilots being told they cant go when they want to and pilots refusing planes engineers have ofered them. its something that goes both ways we double check each other for departures its a fail safe system we both can stop an a/c from departing its the safe way.
Unfortunatly a pilots view often changes depending on the destination hes going to or if his friends are on staff travel. After all we are all human thats why we have the systems there.
I could list many other examples of pilots being told they cant go when they want to and pilots refusing planes engineers have ofered them. its something that goes both ways we double check each other for departures its a fail safe system we both can stop an a/c from departing its the safe way.
Unfortunatly a pilots view often changes depending on the destination hes going to or if his friends are on staff travel. After all we are all human thats why we have the systems there.
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Secret Squirrel:
"If maintenance hits a snag, that's the schedule out of the window, no question; safety first"
If only life were that simple 'twould indeed be easy... and I'm not going to burst into song about how that shows your lack of knowledge of how the engineer works....
It's very simple really...since the whole world is now run by accountants, and we are all paid (even if unequally) we can be totally confident that we are ALL needed, otherwise we would not be employed - the bean counters will only pay for that which is totally indispensable, from FMS down to the weedkiller for the runway cracks.
Anybody else agree that this has now been talked to death and hasn't a cat in hell's chance of resolution?
"If maintenance hits a snag, that's the schedule out of the window, no question; safety first"
If only life were that simple 'twould indeed be easy... and I'm not going to burst into song about how that shows your lack of knowledge of how the engineer works....
It's very simple really...since the whole world is now run by accountants, and we are all paid (even if unequally) we can be totally confident that we are ALL needed, otherwise we would not be employed - the bean counters will only pay for that which is totally indispensable, from FMS down to the weedkiller for the runway cracks.
Anybody else agree that this has now been talked to death and hasn't a cat in hell's chance of resolution?
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The reason engineers become pilots is often for an easier life, I know, that's why I did a CPL. As a licensed engineer I was tired of long hours and hard work and my life ruled by an ever ringing mobile phone. As a pilot you can go home and forget about work and not worry about the company calling you in at 2am even though you have already worked 80 hours that week.
It is very unfair that captains are paid more than engineers, as I know from personal experience that it is far harder to gain an engineering licence than a pilot licence.
The ATPL was a breeze compared to the engineering licences I hold.
It is very unfair that captains are paid more than engineers, as I know from personal experience that it is far harder to gain an engineering licence than a pilot licence.
The ATPL was a breeze compared to the engineering licences I hold.
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Ever considered this point: As an engineer, becoming insulin dependant diabetic has not cost me my career. It is annoying that I am not allowed in fuel tanks and not allowed to drive airside, but I have not lost any pay. What if a pilot gets this, or one of many other illnesses. It won't be an ADD for him/her. It will more than likely mean a career change. Perhaps this vulnerability warrants a higher level of pay to encourage people to become pilots.