Hey ANFO - you'll soon discover IF you've got the balls to come O/S, that EVERYONE here calls scabs as they are - SCABS.

If you're not a scab, you have nothing to worry about. Simply having worked for a scab outfit does not make you a scab.

They know who they are. If you are indeed an AN FO, you're probably not a scab unless you somehow failed to make the grade to command, so you've got nothing to worry about, but don't try justifying their actions to any of the non scabs that you'll fly with, or you'll be quickly ostracised in whatever country you end up.

Good luck finding a job - and that's a genuine wish.

To the "heros" - what goes around comes around boys and girls!!

VB has publicly stated that they will take on 10 aircraft, crew and 1000 ex AN employees.

It will be interesting which crew are left out in the cold.

VB has to remember the world is watching you.

A serious question, with no abuse warranted in replies. Todays Australian report that Qantas is interested in the fleet of A320's. Will they therefor be crewed by Ansett in the long term, or open to the regular bidding process for current emplyee promotion. In light of the future 330 arrivals at QF, are both types cross crew approved? May this be justification for further airbus purchases fromt he qantas stable?

What is the URL of Neil's list? Had an address some time ago, but from memory, it stopped working.

Virgin Blue will obviously consider everyone on their merits and the decision will rest solely with its management as to who is employable and who is of an unacceptable character to fit into the Virgin employee culture. What the world thinks will be of no consequence to this decision making process. For those that have a clear and honourable history, good luck ! and for those that don't, well that is too bad.

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Interceptor ]

I was of the impression that most of the VB senior management were ex 89.
I would not expect to be welcomed with open arms if you are/were on the opposing side.

Very perspicacious of you Balinda. ;)

Yes Balinda your sagacious impression of VB management is totally indubitable.

Sir Shiraz....yes they did....agencies don't generally take into account one's previous union affiliations...unionizing and name calling cost more than one '89er to not get moved from the 737 onto the a-320 at my former employer...will be interesting to see who turns up where..

I was barely into double figures when the dispute occurred in the late eighties, so apart from what I've read and heard from those who were there (and EVERYBODY'S story is different) I really do not know the exact course of events which has led to the acrimonious and tumultuous state of aviation in Australia today.

My question is not intended to offend, apportion blame, infer culpability or suggest favouritism, but I must ask;

If all of you from each end of the spectrum, "Scabs" to "Non-scabs", are so apparently and violently opposed to the other (to the point that, to an objective observer, it seems like a pathological obsession), why are you still in aviation? In the very industry responsible for your myriad miseries?

2 daddies,
Don't know how long you have been reading the board but going back over a considerable time it is plain that the greatest volume of abuse and vituperation emanates from the resignees. SOME of the returnees have retaliated in kind now and then.
Most would not believe that it would be unsafe to fly with former colleagues most of whom do not post here. However judging by the posts of SOME of the resignees that conclusion could easily be reached.
I am used to receiving abusive flak and I guess more is on the way. However you will find that I have never resorted to that myself.

Unfortunately some people don't realise that such vituperative responses tend to reduce the credibility of their opinion.Nevertheless SOME are able to make sensible contributions to the debate.

Generally the abuse is in response to being unable to answer "uncomfortable" but relevant questions relating to the AFAP handling of the matter. Never can get any direct answers to many relevant questions regarding that and don't expect any in the future.

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]

Don't you just love it when a hero sits on the fence and says, "me, what did I do, I didn't do anything, I have to look after my family. I'm a good guy, really"

**** I'm loving this.


Sui Generis

The reason theres no abuse or vituperation from scabs is because they are gutless wimps. There yellow streaks wont allow it.

Strobes_on, Neils list can be found at: http://www.vision.net.au/~neill/scabs89.htm but it was only last updated June 1999.

KapM and others. I should clarify; 'am always interested to listen and rationally discuss ideas and experiences with anyone. Regretably, that I work(ed) at AN has attracted some flak to me in this forum(and a couple of other places) over the years and (admittedly) that I somtimes hit the keyboard after consumming a few Coopers(but that's what can make this forum fun occasionally!!), however, I am serious, it is true that employers will not take crap from staff with an ax to grind against new employees. The story regarding the guys losing their jobs at MAS and SQ came to me from R.N.an SQ Capt ex AN(and a mentor and true gentleman) who was present when an '89er he was with got stuck into a couple of ex-work mates in the lobby of the Hyatt in Melb. The guy was instantly dismissed on arrival back to Singapore. As for those for whom you have reason to hold a grude against, its it really worth losing you job over somone you despise?

M, I should lso add, wasn't it the Companies that said that it would be unsafe to have two guys from opposite camps of '89 flying together?

Sorry ANFO, but you are totally incorrect in saying that 89ers had been sacked from MAS for altercations with Scabs. I know for a fact that MAS management was totally on the side of the displaced 89ers and viewed Scabs with the contempt that they deserved. In Malay culture it is almost the ultimate sin to take the food from another mans family's mouths for his own selfish reasons. I recall one idiot who had attempted to Scab with Ansett who was rejected but had the audacity to show up at MAS boasting about his attempted actions. Needless to say he was on the very first flight out of the country the next morning with the good riddance of management and all concerned. Don't forget the old saying that the consequences of your actions today may come back to haunt you one day.

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Interceptor ]

ANFO it was Captain Dick Marman (son of DCA checker Peter) who, as President, spokesman, and representative of the Ansett pilot group, publically stated that it would be UNSAFE to have the two groups in the same cockpit - I have a scan of the newspaper article at the the time, if you wish to email me your address I`ll forward it to you.

Like all of those who made the greedy grab, their foresight (or lack thereof) didn`t include envisaging a situation where THEY might need to seek employment in a cockpit already crewed by non-scabs!

And on their OWN SWORD - the one they hastily drew and honed, to try to ensure WE were left JOBLESS - they can NOW fall. By their own public declaration, they have stated that it would be UNSAFE to work with us, and no employer will bring disharmony and unrest into a well-running company.
It is they who will be looking to join, not us, and if you look at the numbers (scabs vs non-scabs) it's not too hard to see where the majority are.

Employees (and contracting agents) DO take notice of these factors! Why introduce trouble!

The original question asks if AN pilots will get re-employed in Australia. There will be some jobs available in the short term at QF and VB as both airlines expand to fill the void. The former will only be looking for F/O's and the latter maybe both, BUT - considering who the management of VB are I would suggest that I would not like to be on the published scab list.

The question should also ask if employment will be available overseas? Until the other day there were plenty of jobs available but with the sudden downturm caused by recent event in the USA this has suddenly changed. Some operators have already informed prospective new employees that the start date is delayed or even cancelled.

One other important item to take into consideration is that when assessing aplications the employers often seek opinion from current staff. Because I was involved in training my Company always asked my opinion when we had an Australian aplication. This I know happened in all the other airlines in the region. Once again I would not like my name to be on any list.

To those not on the list - good luck

Have a nice day

Kaptin M.

Eloquently put.

773. You aren't responsible for your father's decision. Look at both sides of the war with an open mind, and remember that most of us involved have put 89 behind us.

All the best with trying to find a job!! :cool: