The "heroes" of Ansett 1989-2002.
 

In fairness, and to avoid side-tracking the "It`s time to liquidate Ansett" thread, I thought that THIS subject warranted its own space! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Words fail me sometimes - but not this time!

Those greedy, self-centred, scab b*#t*#ds who screwed the Australian domestic airline pilots more than 12 years ago, have yet AGAIN driven the sword through the careers of the majority of the CURRENT Ansett pilot group, for their own selfish gains. . .Using APA as the vehicle, and by ensuring that THEY held key positions, they quickly seized ("made the greedy grab" is a phrase that once again re-surfaces) the relatively few jobs on offer, albeit that many of them were not current or qualified on type. . .A scabs` union, run BY scabs, for scabs, but financially subsidised by innocent victims who expected FAIR REPRESENTATION during such times as have evolved over the past 5 months.

A letter published by Nice One on the "Liquidate Ansett" thread is again reproduced below for those who haven`t read it - a letter that contains all the ESSENTIAL INGREDIENTS required to qualify one for the position of hero - in particular, this sentence from the 6th paragraph typifies this "man's" supreme, selfish disregard of his peers - "If you honsetly put your own asspirations in front of my and my families right to live in our homeland, I consider you utterly selfish.". Read the letter in toto, and decide for yourselves:. . [quote]Gentlemen. .I am writtimg this from Miyazaki in southern Japan. I have a three year contract with a startup airline. We are optimistic, the company is treating us well, and we have high hopes for a bright future. We are, of course, faced with the uncertainties of life as contract crew .

I have not seen my wife and kids for three weeks and will not for another four. When I do it will be when they arrive in a foreign country where they do not speak the languade. My four-year-old will be faced with attending a pre-school where no-one will understand him or be understood by him. I`m sure he`ll adjust, but as a father it is heartwrenching to know you are putting your children through a difficult transition.

After the Ansett collapse my carreer choices came down to this or joining Qantas as a second officer. If I had taken the latter I MAY have seen a command again some time in my 50s. It was a VERY tough choice, but I made it and am living with it.

I did not ask Ansett to collapse. I did not ask to be made redundant. I didn`t want the money, I wanted a carreer in my homeland and would have gladly traded.

I agree that the first officers DESERVE a carreer path. Many are well over-due for a command. But a huge tragedy beyond the control of any of us has had a devestating effect on ALL of us.

I take the suggestion that it is more just for an FO to get a seat change in the new company than it is for me to get my JOB back with disbelief and repugnence. If you honsetly put your own asspirations in front of my and my families right to live in our homeland, I consider you utterly selfish.

I challenge any of you to e-mail me directly, with your real name, and explain why I should never be considered for the new Ansett.<hr></blockquote>

If the author of the above wishes to contact me, I`d be only TOO happy to tell him WHY he should NOT be considered for the new Ansett, under the terms he has scribed. He can call me direct on 09098806522.

Out of curiosity I wonder how many pre-Sept 13 non-scab, `hero-supporters` have had a change of mind, having seen our "I did it for my family" types, ONCE AGAIN screw the masses for their own reward?

[quote] Words fail me sometimes - but not this time!

<hr></blockquote>

Oh ssuuuurrrrre they do Kap !!

:) :) :)

I think Kaptain M has finally lost it with this one!

His/Her attiudes are completely out of line with this post and feel that 1898 (1989 who care's) should be laid to rest.

Woomera I find this post extremely offensive as it is uninformed, opionionated and damaging towards Ansett please put the lock on it and tell Kaptain M keep his 1889 opions to himself. It was a generation ago!

Toecutter, it will not be over until the last Pilot involved in the dispute is dead, as someone once said it not over till the fat lady (Fatman) sings.. .Looks like a long wait!

Katpin M all i can say to the above is REALLY

Take some more medicine and lay down Krap tin.

Kaptin M. .Yep, your probably right given the misconduct of the others involved with the AN/FLEW deal. I bet there are quite a few changing their thoughts! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Like a lot of things in life, people just don't care or aren't interested until an event actually affects them personally.. .Then the monkeys can suddenly see, hear and speak again.. .But by then its usually too late!

"Life wasn't meant to be easy!"

The standard of personal abuse directed at your's truly,eg. . .toecutter,"I think Kaptain M has finally lost it with this one!", and. .RIVERVIEW1,"Take some more medicine and lay down Krap tin."

- rather than informed debate, would indicate that a raw nerve may have been touched.

The FACT is, toecutter, the actions of the scabs of 1989 are not restricted to only that year, nor only that generation of pilots - as you have insinuated with your,. . [quote]His/Her attiudes are completely out of line with this post and feel that 1898 (1989 who care's) should be laid to rest.

Woomera I find this post extremely offensive as it is uninformed, opionionated and damaging towards Ansett please put the lock on it and tell Kaptain M keep his "1889 opions" (sic) to himself. It was a generation ago!<hr></blockquote>

As Captain_Z said, "...it will not be over until the last Pilot involved in the dispute is dead". . .And if I might add, the children of many of those pilots were also old enough, in 1989, to know many of the infamous names, and still recall them today.

However, as if not enough, 12 years on, this same group of players - YET AGAIN - have re-played their rotten roles.. .12 years of trying to brainwash their co-workers with the "I had to do it for my family in 1989", has been blown right out of the water, shown for the LIE that it was all along.

Kap M,if its debate you want then I'm more than prepared to offer my 2 cents worth.. .Unlike now in 1989 I had no family so I never said that I went back for my family.. .I've always said the dispute taught me one thing "look after yourself" because at the end of the day no one else will,most importantly my colleagues of '89 who left me and others in their wake to trot off over seas to great jobs that us juniors had no chance of ever getting (yes,I did apply overseas),then to see the fat cat senior guys gloating how much super they received and then they were still going to get a a great job overseas.I should have applied to overseas positions at the start,but of course I was told by the AFAP "Don't worry son we'll be back soon", what a garden path those guys led me down,"overseas Pilots coming down here?.Crap"was the response by the union heirachy.. .It was lost after the first three months,but you were probably on your 747 ground school with SQ by then.I've said this before but not one senior pilot gave a toss about my or anyone elses predicament,even after 6 months you and people like you would have prefered me to give away my whole career and drive a cab for the rest of my life.. .I've also lost many good friends.Friends who are now doing very well for themselves in overseas Airlines.Life for a lot of these guys is just fine,life for a lot of AN people like me is not and I know you and your buddies revel in that thought.. ."Look after youself because no one else will" is what I'll tell people I fly with If they ask about the dispute,because thats what people like you Kaptain M taught me.. .Despite all this I do agree with some of your comments about people(senior Pilots)who made promises at the time and not only didn't keep them,but knew at the time they were lying.Just like people on your side Kaptain M.

"Always look after youself.because no one else will".

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Thumbs up ]</p>

Kap M,. .Once again you are displaying slippery logic. I do not agree with the person who expects to go overseas for 3 years on contract and then return to AN in his "rightful" position.

BUT!

That is exactly what you and your ilk expected to do in '89. Would you not agree that you also wanted to have your cake and eat it? The only difference in your case is that your wounds were self inflicted aided by an incompetent bunch in the AFAP.

Thumbs Up,. .I have to disagree with you on the time that the dispute was lost. It was lost the moment the resignations were submitted and accepted. The rest of your remarks are spot on.

Well Thumbs up, you - by your comments - display the TRUE traits of a scab!. ...."LOOK AFTER YOURSELF" (and F#ck everyone else!). .Thank you for coming out into the open - which YOU would not have had the guts to do when you made your dash back for an accelerated promotion in 1989. And obviously early at that, with your ""LOOK AFTER YOURSELF" epitaph!

It must be a delight to witness your behaviour at buffets and social functions (not that I imagine you get too many invites, Tu!).

For your information, in 1989 I was an F/O, and commenced my first job after Ansett - with SIA - in October 1990.

FSU, I expected that this aspect would be raised [quote]That is exactly what you and your ilk expected to do in '89. Would you not agree that you also wanted to have your cake and eat it?<hr></blockquote>

The stance of the AFAP and ALL the pilots who constituted it was - from the beginning thru' to the end - "an orderly return to work". Throughout the 1989 dispute ALL unanimously agreed that the existing Seniority system was to remain intact - to stop scabs such as Thumbs up from queue-jumping, as he DID at the first opportunity, and continued to espouse following his return.. .Had the dispute been handled as was the norm, with a NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT, I guess the Federation would have put some time cap on the length of service permitted o/s, and still returning with one's original seniority number and position.

Of course APA had no such agreement with their members, but rather, followed "Scabs' Rules".......LOOK AFTER YOURSELF - F*CK EVERYONE ELSE!

Kap M,. .Noted.. .Still can't respond without the use of expletives and personal vilification.

KAPTAIN m.You seem to have a case of dislexia, what I said was, . ."LOOK AFTER YOURSELF BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WILL". .I said that three times in my previos post.You had better get that problem looked at ,not a good trait for an Airline Pilot.. .I have never hidden behind the fact I returned to AN,as you have acknowledged in a previous post.. .My little saying eventuated from lots of soul searching,maturing and finding out that people often say one thing and do another.I blindly followed the AFAP,senior pilots and people I respected for 5 months only to be trampled on.. .For your information I proudly walked into the AFAP office to tell them of my decision and offered a chance for them to talk me out of it,by guarantee of my job back.No surprise that that was not forthcoming.. .KAPTAIN m unlike what you seem to believe,not one returnee had Queue jumping on there mind.As is my case,all were going back to their old Jobs that the Union(yes the ones who are looking after our best interests)were happy to see go.We were all led like lambs to the slaughter,to little to late.. .I'm sick of typing ,but I expect your real problem is that you have finally realised that you to should have made the move.Am I right??.. .I have no problems with any decisions I've made in Life.People like you don't scare me one bit.

Its funny KAPTAIN m,I see we already are quite different people,for instance we both have a very different definition of INFORMED DEBATE!!!

Good Day to you KAPTAIN m

As usual, KM is right, and TU and FSU are wrong.. .In truth, the very exisitence of the APA could be nothing other than the organisation which looked after the people who set it up, and not the membership at large, even though they re all scabs.. .It is the very reason why the AFAP from its inception, and under reasonably wise leadership, acted for the best interests of professional pilots.. .There were always individuals, small in number, who could never be satisfied with the AFAP, nor any organistion which didn't fit THEIR requirements exactly.. .Democratic institutions cannot satisfy all of the people all of the time.. .But all in all, the AFAP did a great job, until the scabs came into existence in 1989, led by the heroes we know as "golden scabs", and who took, and I quote: " the king's shilling", and the one who said that will recognise himself.. .The Quaintarse moguls of around 1983, imagined themselves better off under a company union. Not an uncommon thought, as many pilots were frustrated by the goings on in other outfits which did not have anything to do with them. (E.G., AN integration of the '70's).. .But the QF pilots would have done far better under the AFAP. They held greater sway than their numbers warranted in terms of power, but for certain people that was not good enough.. .Now, old TU, the bottom line is that you were, and remain, a scab, as will old FSU, and there are people who hold you in disgust, for your selfishness, and FSU's, clearly knows no bounds. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

So what was 1989 all about?

meloz. .here are some links. use the search function for more.

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=007589&p=" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=007589&p=</a>

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>

It was a big grab for money. The AFAP went on a work to rule flying 9am-5pm only over a 30% pay increase with no offer to increase productivity. IE: Pure greed. The Industrial Relations Commision ordered the AFAP to resume normal operations or be lible for civil damages, as was covered by law. Some writs for damages were issued(and never persued by the companies) and the AFAP members resigned from their jobs, ostensibly to protect their individual assets. Their resignations have since been described as the greatest tactical blunder imaginable as the pilots were no longer be considered to be a group of employees,from a lawful perspective. The companies started to employ from overseas and GA, the 'Feds took jobs in GA and overseas and those of us in GA looked on in bewilderment. In my mind, nothing that if have heard or read subsequently( by the likes of TT2 or KM)has ever removed from my mind the hypocracy of many (but by no means all) of the AFAP members who took jobs in GA and elsewhere and chanted the mantra" dont take a job at the airlines or you're a scab". I have invited Tool Time 2 in previous posts to solve the moral paradox of this question and he/she has failed to do so. I'll ask the question again. Any may answer: ' How could the 'Feds lay a moral claim to 2 jobs at once?'Hmm? <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

ANFO

What a load of c**p. Rewriting history is not going to be that easy.

Meloz

There are many good references in the archives of pprune on the matter. However the best on is probably:. . <a href="http://www.vision.net.au/~neill/scabs89.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vision.net.au/~neill/scabs89.htm</a>

Have a nice day

ANFO I know you joined sc@bsett after the war which is why Im posting this to you. I suggest you bone up on your subject-matter pal and stop relying on the bloodey lies of the scabs and their ALP heros. You sound more like one of the Great Unwashed. And FYI (before you jump in) I took no GA job during 89. I had no bloodey desire to hang around in the country one second longer than necessary.

A two bladed question for y'all.

How do those from that year who absconded O/S and became entrenched in good paying positions justify the fact that they took jobs that could/should have been given to locals?????

And for those that stayed, how did/do you justify your decision to stay/return?????

ANFO,

Whilst a few 89'ers did move into GA jobs I'm afraid it was a two way street with numerous GA pilots relishing the chance to take up an airline job. Few GA pilots (Woomera was one I believe, mucho cred there) refused to apply to the airlines during the dispute. . .The famous list is quite numerous in GA names going into the airlines and I count 14 going into EWA alone. And no, I didn't go into a GA job.

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: bonvol ]</p>

So I guess we won't be seeing ANY of the unemployed Ansett pilots of 2001 taking G.A. jobs - even though they haven't resigned?

Certainly I wouldn't have condoned the actions of any of the 1989 pilots, if they aggressively took jobs away from incumbents, however if positions were advertised as vacant, then they had every right to apply. On the other hand the Federation published full page notices in ALL Australian aviation media, and Flight magazine - which is distributed worldwide - advising that there was an Industrial dispute in Oz between the 4 domestic airlines and the Federation (representing the pilots), with a recruitment ban enacted, contrary to any job vacancies advertised by Ansett, East-West, Australian Airlines, and IPEC.

Had G.A. pilots, who are also represented by the AFAP, requested a directive be issued to stop the dispute pilots taking jobs away from them - or had this in fact been the case - then it would have been respected. . .Funny how I didn't hear about any of these G.A. jobs being forcefully taken, in 1989, until well after the dispute was over!

Rabbit, your link doesn't appear to work........

Hmmm. Now, ANFO is, or was, I assume, and AN F/O.. .So, it was OK to scab, but not OK for someone whose job he grabbed to look for employment in GA.. .Just a little lost on the logic there old son.. .In any case, the insinuation is that the "Feds" flooded the GA market, and it simply isn't true.. .But we must remember, that once in for the big steal, that automatically qualifies one for the big lies. So the attempt to rewrite history.. .And who cares about the resignations or writs one way or the other? The agenda was on the deceased Abeles plate irrespective of the AFAP action. All he needed was the likes of Hawke and Kelty in his pocket, and he had 'em!. .Remember, the ACTU was a party to all of the action against the pilots at the time. They did not care a fig for pilots, and while certain members of that disgraceful organisation may have felt some disquiet, they were all held on a tight leash by the now deceased Abeles via Kelty. The now deceased Abeles bought and paid for it ANFO, and you fell for it because your mindset is like all scabs: "what's in it for me?". .I stress the "deceased" Abeles because all history owes the dead is the truth, and the truth about this person is that he was unworthy to be called an Australian. By association, neither is Hawke, nor Kelty. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Tool Time Two ]</p>

I have studied the above links but I have one question. So what was 1989 all about?

Prize for best response in 25 words or less.

Greed and Power.

Yeah, but on which side?

Seems like these guys represent wharfies more than so called professionals.

How many "professions" apart from teaching and sex workers have union style organisations.

To harp on about how badly done by you were by a big bad boss is just admitting that you are nothing but factory fodder that probably deserved a bit of shaking out.

The Ego trip of the then Union Executive.

And Lead Balloon, subsequent managements have PROVEN that most workers, whether they're wharfies, teachers, public servants, or pilots need the barrier of protection afforded by a union.. .Currently I work under contract to an airline that originally had no unionised pilot group. Because of the aggressive, lying management, the pilots have - out of NECESSITY - now formed a union, and surprise, surprise, they are now achieving some improvements in their working conditions, whereas before the SAME requests were met with sneers or lies.. .Meanwhile, the other contract workers are repeatedly lied to and misled by this management!

My thoughts on unions has done a complete 180 over the past 13 or 14 years - for GOOD reason. Some workers NEED to be protected from omnipotent managers.

The fate of the majority of the Ansett pilots in 2001/02 PROVED that a relative greedy few (scabs) SERIOUSLY affected ALL Australian pilots' futures, in 1989, when they cut the AFAP out of the negotiating process!

[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]</p>

[quote] How many "professions" apart from teaching and sex workers have union style organisations.. . <hr></blockquote>

Lead balloon,. .Here is a few. There's plenty more, and just as many employer associations.

Australian Nursing Federation. .Health & Community Services Union . .Health Services Union of Australia . .Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers Australia. .Australian Professional Footballers Association. .Australian Salaried Medical Officers Federation. .Civil Air Operations Officers Association of Australia. .Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance. .Police Federation of Australia. .Victorian Psychologists Association. .United Firefighters Union of Australia. .Finance Sector Union. .Australian Nursing Federation. .Australian Writers Guild . .Australian Society of Authors . .Royal Australian Institute of Architects . .Screen Producers Assocation of Australia . .Musicians Union of Australia . .Civil Contractors Federation. .Community and Public Sector Union. .Fire Contractors Federation. .Managers and Financial Executives Association. .Master Builders Association . .National Electrical Contractors Association. .Pharmacy Guild of Australia. .Private Hospitals Industrial Association of Australia. .IT Workers Alliance. .Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association. .Customs Officers Association of Australia. .Graphic Arts Services Association of Australia. .Farmers Federation Industrial Association

Top marks "Daytrader"

Oops, I'm sorry. You're right.

A professional is merely a person who performs a task for money.

Nothing to do with attitude, bearing and intelligence, position in society etc.

I for one, agree with you. Pilots should be lobbed in with the list of professional red raggers like, electricians and fire system installers. You also forgot carpet technicians and sanitary engineers.

Daytrader, You forgot the Association of left handed lesbian clockwinders.

Being a profesional is not just a word on a business card, it is an attitude and work ethic.

Not a holier than thou outlook upon the world, and an attitude to belittle others.

Forgotten where you came from, or didn't you have to work to get there LB? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[quote] Pilots should be lobbed in with the list of professional red raggers like, electricians and fire system installers.<hr></blockquote>

Yep, we're ALL pinky, commie b@st@rds, LB - out to sabotage the government and destroy the economy! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Don't forget to check under your bed tonight, just before you turn the lights out. :)

And, of course, those out to bust the unions and take away the right to fair representation for the employers, are crusaders on white chargers. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Not all the Pilots that went O/S in 89 went to well paid jobs. . .I remember in the early 90's when my father called me at the house that I was sharing with 3 other 89ers.. He asked "how's life?", trying not to be negative my Answer was Life's interesting, the local are treating us well and our accommodation is not too good...The rest of the conversation was drowned out by Barking and Howling by my Flatmates( We called it the Doghouse) The rent of this place was US$800/month (200 each). My salary was US$1100-1300/month (incl allowances)and we had to pay the rent. We had no travel rights and due to the restriction of our Visa could not leave the country until we had completed 6 months employment.

Now what happened in 1989 was not my fault or 99% of the Pilots that were caught up in it. I voted no to the dispute but I also elected to stay out.. .The elder group of my family are Lawyers, Business managers and Aviation middle managers so I was used to the dinner that included half an hour of Union bashing. The fact is one of my many lessons in life is that Unions definately have their place. . .The AFAP's role was determined by the control that Abeles had over Hawke, Strong and Kelty. The Federation with their 2nd class Legal team helped contribute to the 89 dispute being blown out of hand.. .When Hawke declared "War" on us and proceeded to insult our profession I felt that Aviation in Australia was not going the direction that I wanted so I left on my O/S adventure.

We will spend much of our energy hating each other within the Pilot fraternity of OZ whilst Airline managers in Australia continue to degrade Pilot's conditions.

I have no regrets to moving overseas. Everybody in that $800 house has done very well. And I don't have the undying hatred that some have towards the ones who went back. . .You reap what you sow. There have been personal disasters on both sides. . .But I feel there still is a lot of ignorance to the events of 12 years ago.

Few more pinkos here <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Medical Scientists Association . .Australian Medical Association. .Law Council of Australia. .Australian Maritime Officers Union. .Ansett Pilots Association. .Australian Federation of Air Pilots. .Australian Airline Flight Engineers Association. .Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association

Spot on 429 CJ.

Being a professional has nothing to do with title. It's often confused with what you do for work. Unfortunately there is no "tongue in cheek" emoticon for this system for me to use in some of my posts.

Kapt M, well what can I say...