Damn, there I go, half-cocked and all you do is agree? Geez I hate that!

Have a good day. :)

Daytrader, you forgot:

The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association.

. . <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> (Please note the wink.)

BTW

I think LB’s conflated learned professionals with all professionals.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines “profession” to mean, among other things, a “vocation or calling, esp[ecially] one that involves some branch of advanced learning or science”. Examples given of the use of the word “professional” are: “the military profession; a carpenter by profession”.

Thus, according to the COD, one may be a “professional boxer” or a “professional golfer”.

One may also be a member of “the oldest profession – prostitution”.

And one may be a member of “the learned professions – divinity, law or medicine”.

Pilots who are paid to be pilots are doubtless thereby members of a profession, but not a learned profession.

Yet we should take a leaf out of Father Galapagos’s divine professional pilots good book, and forgive LB, for he nose not what he done.

Ohh ****** off creampuff. Meethinks you owe me lunch, not the other way around.

LB and Puff having lunch together. Now that would be interesting......... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Anyone care to answer my ????

I'll have a go at this one, Viper,. . [quote]How do those from that year who absconded O/S and became entrenched in good paying positions justify the fact that they took jobs that could/should have been given to locals?????<hr></blockquote>

In almost all cases, jobs advertised for o/s positions are done so simply because there are not sufficient numbers of qualified locals to fill the positions - the (FALLACIOUS) argument used by the airline companies in Australia in 1989, as they attempted to break the Federation by trying to force each of us to apply individually (rather than through our long-established representative and negotiator).

The jobs advertised (o/s) will always indicate that they are for ex-pats, and will carry some extra benefits such as housing assistance, schooling for the children, and arrangements for return of personal possessions back home at the completion of contract.. .All ex-pats are aware that they will be the first to lose their jobs (ahead of the most junior locals), during bad times, and there is usually no provision made in the contract for upgrading.

So simply, no jobs were taken away from the locals. The airlines know, each year, how many of their local pilots will be ready for upgrade, and recruit outsiders to fill in the extra slots caused by growth, or high attrition through retirement, of their pilot group.. .And it is done with the knowledge and consent of the unions representing the local pilots!

And that's a fact. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

The whole truth and nothing BUT the truth Your Honour ! <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Thumbs Up and FSU from page 1,

You're right on cats!

Le Pilot, I agree, a lot of ignorance, but on BOTH sides.

Sorry 429cj,

Try:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9958/pd89int.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9958/pd89int.htm</a>

This will do the trick.

It is also a fact that in the time preceding the event there was a worldwide shortage of suitable pilots notwithstanding that their own internal training pipelines were full. . .Further the Oz airlines were at the time reviewing applications (much to many applicants surprise) that they had previously either rejected out of hand or applied the don't ring us we'll ring you stamp.. .Demand was way ahead of capacity!. .That is, those who were employable were employed with many vacancies still available.. .The major airlines around the world couldn't believe their luck when all of a sudden this flood of very well trained pilots became available. . .No one was talking anybodies job outside of Australia.

What a mess!

What a load of introspective rubbish this post has turned into.

Yet again the 89'ers have hijacked an otherwise great forum.

Why don't you people divert your anger and resentment to maybe setting up your own private forum where you can whinge and moan to your heart's content.

Have a great life.

:) :)

Methinks they be the scabs who are whinging. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

When all is said and done, the dispute brought out the best and the worst in people. The actions of the govt of the were particularly reprehensible. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Sly'n Smiley ]</p>

Rabbit, the above link has been around for a while. My posting of Feb 3rd (above) is esentially a precis of the 1 st. paragragh of Alex Paterson's account of the dispute. You then describe my post as "cr@p". You cant have it both ways.

Slasher, I have always enjoyed your posts. I agree with you; Hawke and Ables broke the social contract when they declared 'war' on the Feds. The recent events whereby QF management and the Federal government conspired to bring about AN demise was also a breach of the social contract. I too have resolved that I will never pay tax in Australia again.

Too Time2, yet again your logic is convoluted. I never 'scabed'. It's as simple as that. I am not on Neil's list and nor should I be. I did not EVER salivate at the prospect of "taking somones job" at Ansett. I applied for a poition at AN some months before the dispute, was interviewed after the 'Feds said all should reapply for their jobs and started ground school late in '90. I dont think that makes me a scab. If fact, I was offered the chance to really be a scab during the AnNZ lock out(offered a 146 command) and I knocked it back. I do know of a couple of GA guys who DID ramp up their applications to AN and TN at the time. One of the instant Captains at AnExpress bragged to me about how when he found out about the resignations he was over to AN offices like a flash to apply for a job. The actions of these people are reprehensible and I have never supported them. The people who I do support are those who felt coerced into resigning or came to the realisation that the AFAP had blown the deal and came back; it takes strenghth of character to admit you've made a big mistake and brush off peer pressure. Similarly, I admire those who took the moral stand that they would no longer work for a company that sought to destroy them and set off to another life. However, remember that industrial action was started by AFAP. The companies didn't lock you out or anything and I think that those involved should realise that they have some responsibility for the outcome. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

ARCTAURUS I'm with you!. .Get over it you guys. You'll all end up with a belly full of cancer!. .OOPS! Forgot.That's what comes out of your mouth.

On both sides of the fence, it is all about taking responsibility for your actions.

It seems that some here do not wish to do so. The usual tired old one sided excuses and arguments are being repeated again and again and (boring) again. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

My thoughts turned to moral decision making.

Some possible choices are:

1. Self-centred - I choose what I like, so long as I'm don't harm anyone and I'm prepared for all the legal and community/family consequences. Is this the "selfish" pilot who may, in some quarters be called a scab?

2. The greater good - I will choose the action(s) which will provide the greatest good for the majority of the (pilot) community. Is this the pilot who'll not accept lesser conditions on the basis that appropriate rewards for all will be preserved?

3. The weakest in our society need protection - All of us in this situation must band together and find an equitable outcome that treats us all from a point of equal barganing strength. Is this the pilot prepared to accept a lessor outcome than his/her status would otherwise have delivered?

Can there ever be a right or wrong action? Isn't it true that individuals will, on the basis of their moral development choose one course or other, inspite of how they think other will judge them? Is it possible to accept that in any society there will be difference of opinion, passion, perspective and points of view.

3.

Hey Woomera how many times do you want to thrash out this same arguement. You do know every time you lock this up another anti scab post will start.. .THIS IS NOT ........ 1) NEWS. . ........ 2) RUMOUR . .Why dont you let Kaptin M moderate his own site on this subject outside of DUNNUNDA.?. . PLEASE.!!. .No offence intended Kaptin. I seriously think you would do a good job of it. Anyone not understanding 1989 could then learn from your site.. . <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

bgt and others.

1. It's simple as you say, I lock this one another starts so why bother. Why? There is obviously some interest otherwise the thread would have a short life and die a natural death as do the vast majority of threads herein.

As a moderator I am constantly surprised at some of the threads that take off and others that perhaps should do, but don't. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

2. It's also a simple matter to just ignore them, completely, unless you feel compelled to participate, in which event don't ask me to close it for this reason or that if it goes in a direction that doesn't suit your personal views. Yours are as valid as anyones as long as they are presented according to the rules.

3. If you are concerned that somehow misinformation on a subject is being propagated then trust your fellow PPRuNers and believe me they are very very quick to do so, to correct this. Single sided arguments on any subject rarely last long, ask mrs woomera :)

4. None of the Woomeras were directly or even indirectly involved then or now, our ONLY task is to keep it clean.

As always around here, it's your choice.

And once again.... . .No one is being forced to read this thread.

It appears to me that those bleating that it is sooooo booring / happened so long ago / should be padlocked, censored, moved out of sight etc. may be just a little uncomfortable about being reminded about the past.

For some of us: Forgive - maybe. Forget - never.

Not at all D.D. . ."Forgive but dont forget" are you kidding. I havent seen ANY Forgiving HERE.If you have forgiven all ,, why bother with this thread.OR why at least dont you tell others that you have forgiven them. . .My problem with this CONTINUED THREAD is that it is powered by hatred , fed with anger and aimed to intimidate.. .Some of the worst reasons to be writing anything at all.. .BUT hey its your life ...albiet a little shorter each day and if you ENJOY this type of thing ,go to it. NEITHER SIDE will ever win the arguement. So I guess the best part is ,. .you can continue the arguement for THE REST OF YOUR LIFE .. .Sorry to have troubled you Wommera.I wasnt involved either. I would rather have read L.A.M.E.s press releases . At least at times I learnt things from them.. . So on that note, I will take your advice .I wont bother reading this again !

Kaptin "eMbalism" has got to be the worlds biggest wa*ker! . .(1)He is still persuing something that happened nearly 13 years ago which means he is a very angry, bitter, unstable individual. . .(2)He maintains that if you didn't behave in a way he sees fit then he will call you names.. .(3)His ultimate hypocracy is that he's quite happy to live and work overseas thereby depriving someone else (local) of a job which makes him the worlds biggest SCAB.. .(4)This poor excuse for an individual is flyimg aeroplanes around with people on them which is a real worry. I think it's time that these concerns are made clear to his employer.

Alpha , are you trying to grade the differnet dergrees of scabbing!? If so you must be a scab cause they do it real well!! By the way KapM is far from the scab fraternity.

Thanks for the concerns Alpha 41 - the subject of the Ansett scabs WAS raised with my employer some months back.

And he agreed that NONE of them will find a position here!! :) <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . .Cheers.

What's that I hear!

"No ticket, no job"

A41, it is only due to the likes of the Kapt and his ilk that prevents the scabs from rewriting history. If you don't like it, don't read it. Keep it up Kapt, I don't always agree with you, but 99.9% of the time you get my thumbs up, mate.

Alpha, it may have been 12 1/2 years ago but the lessons are still pretty relevant- especially in liight of what is going on at Ansett Mk X.

Everything changes and nothing changes.

BGT

Why dont you get a life! I read these threads because I find them interesting. NO, I wasn't involevd in 89 and I have never been involved nor do I know anybody personally who has been invlolved with ANSETT.

IF READING THIS THREAD MAKES YOU FEEL UNCONFORTABLE THEN DONT!

A41. .Q.If re-visiting history is so bad, why is the entire human race hell bent on finding out what went on over the past Zillion years?

A. Because we can learn by our mistakes!

KaptM. .I dont always agree with the things you say but I am still reading. Thats all I can say, i'm interested in your point of view, and that of others.

NOT GARBAGE!

Quite a number have found positions,and are now flying, in Japan. Perhaps not for the company you're with, but Japanese companies nevertheless.

Tails between their legs no doubt! You can run but you cant hide

BRILLIANT overunder.I expect it took you a while to come up with that little gem.. .Please please tell us what you really mean so I can warn the scabs going off overseas.

I may be able to help you out here,perhaps a whoopy cushion slipped in at the appropiate time?

No no, I've got it how about some of that frothing sugar surved in there coffee,that will surely let those scabs know you mean business.. .What do think overunder?We're really interested to know!!!.. .Of course if you have anything more sinister in mind you'll have to watch you don't incur the wrath of Woomera. :)

Overunder,

Take another tablet - the current dose is not strong enough. :)

Overunder, I know that these guys dont have their "tails between their legs" This is just wishful thinking on the part of those who wish them ill. On these Japan contracts, no doubt they are laughing all the way to the bank. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

I think "T" stands for TREVOR.

Hi guys, remember me? Iam the one who started this marathon post some six pages ago.. .The reason I started this was not to start a "89" here we go again post, but was to get feedback on how ansett pilots that have left to take up contracts elsewere, (as much as it was for a matter of survival) should be re-employed back at Ansett at their current rank once their contract has expired.. .If this was to happen then the F/O's that have NOT been able to get overseas work and have worked throughout the administration period on as little as 15 hours/month will have to put up with NO chance of an upgrade for quite some time.. .I do see to a point that it was not their fault that AN went under, but what ever way it goes, your going to have some unhappy campers in Ansett.

Sorry for interupting....you were saying...