The "heroes" of Ansett 1989-2002.
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The "heroes" of Ansett 1989-2002.
In fairness, and to avoid side-tracking the "It`s time to liquidate Ansett" thread, I thought that THIS subject warranted its own space! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Words fail me sometimes - but not this time!
Those greedy, self-centred, scab b*#t*#ds who screwed the Australian domestic airline pilots more than 12 years ago, have yet AGAIN driven the sword through the careers of the majority of the CURRENT Ansett pilot group, for their own selfish gains. . .Using APA as the vehicle, and by ensuring that THEY held key positions, they quickly seized ("made the greedy grab" is a phrase that once again re-surfaces) the relatively few jobs on offer, albeit that many of them were not current or qualified on type. . .A scabs` union, run BY scabs, for scabs, but financially subsidised by innocent victims who expected FAIR REPRESENTATION during such times as have evolved over the past 5 months.
A letter published by Nice One on the "Liquidate Ansett" thread is again reproduced below for those who haven`t read it - a letter that contains all the ESSENTIAL INGREDIENTS required to qualify one for the position of hero - in particular, this sentence from the 6th paragraph typifies this "man's" supreme, selfish disregard of his peers - "If you honsetly put your own asspirations in front of my and my families right to live in our homeland, I consider you utterly selfish.". Read the letter in toto, and decide for yourselves:. . [quote]Gentlemen. .I am writtimg this from Miyazaki in southern Japan. I have a three year contract with a startup airline. We are optimistic, the company is treating us well, and we have high hopes for a bright future. We are, of course, faced with the uncertainties of life as contract crew .
I have not seen my wife and kids for three weeks and will not for another four. When I do it will be when they arrive in a foreign country where they do not speak the languade. My four-year-old will be faced with attending a pre-school where no-one will understand him or be understood by him. I`m sure he`ll adjust, but as a father it is heartwrenching to know you are putting your children through a difficult transition.
After the Ansett collapse my carreer choices came down to this or joining Qantas as a second officer. If I had taken the latter I MAY have seen a command again some time in my 50s. It was a VERY tough choice, but I made it and am living with it.
I did not ask Ansett to collapse. I did not ask to be made redundant. I didn`t want the money, I wanted a carreer in my homeland and would have gladly traded.
I agree that the first officers DESERVE a carreer path. Many are well over-due for a command. But a huge tragedy beyond the control of any of us has had a devestating effect on ALL of us.
I take the suggestion that it is more just for an FO to get a seat change in the new company than it is for me to get my JOB back with disbelief and repugnence. If you honsetly put your own asspirations in front of my and my families right to live in our homeland, I consider you utterly selfish.
I challenge any of you to e-mail me directly, with your real name, and explain why I should never be considered for the new Ansett.<hr></blockquote>
If the author of the above wishes to contact me, I`d be only TOO happy to tell him WHY he should NOT be considered for the new Ansett, under the terms he has scribed. He can call me direct on 09098806522.
Out of curiosity I wonder how many pre-Sept 13 non-scab, `hero-supporters` have had a change of mind, having seen our "I did it for my family" types, ONCE AGAIN screw the masses for their own reward?
Words fail me sometimes - but not this time!
Those greedy, self-centred, scab b*#t*#ds who screwed the Australian domestic airline pilots more than 12 years ago, have yet AGAIN driven the sword through the careers of the majority of the CURRENT Ansett pilot group, for their own selfish gains. . .Using APA as the vehicle, and by ensuring that THEY held key positions, they quickly seized ("made the greedy grab" is a phrase that once again re-surfaces) the relatively few jobs on offer, albeit that many of them were not current or qualified on type. . .A scabs` union, run BY scabs, for scabs, but financially subsidised by innocent victims who expected FAIR REPRESENTATION during such times as have evolved over the past 5 months.
A letter published by Nice One on the "Liquidate Ansett" thread is again reproduced below for those who haven`t read it - a letter that contains all the ESSENTIAL INGREDIENTS required to qualify one for the position of hero - in particular, this sentence from the 6th paragraph typifies this "man's" supreme, selfish disregard of his peers - "If you honsetly put your own asspirations in front of my and my families right to live in our homeland, I consider you utterly selfish.". Read the letter in toto, and decide for yourselves:. . [quote]Gentlemen. .I am writtimg this from Miyazaki in southern Japan. I have a three year contract with a startup airline. We are optimistic, the company is treating us well, and we have high hopes for a bright future. We are, of course, faced with the uncertainties of life as contract crew .
I have not seen my wife and kids for three weeks and will not for another four. When I do it will be when they arrive in a foreign country where they do not speak the languade. My four-year-old will be faced with attending a pre-school where no-one will understand him or be understood by him. I`m sure he`ll adjust, but as a father it is heartwrenching to know you are putting your children through a difficult transition.
After the Ansett collapse my carreer choices came down to this or joining Qantas as a second officer. If I had taken the latter I MAY have seen a command again some time in my 50s. It was a VERY tough choice, but I made it and am living with it.
I did not ask Ansett to collapse. I did not ask to be made redundant. I didn`t want the money, I wanted a carreer in my homeland and would have gladly traded.
I agree that the first officers DESERVE a carreer path. Many are well over-due for a command. But a huge tragedy beyond the control of any of us has had a devestating effect on ALL of us.
I take the suggestion that it is more just for an FO to get a seat change in the new company than it is for me to get my JOB back with disbelief and repugnence. If you honsetly put your own asspirations in front of my and my families right to live in our homeland, I consider you utterly selfish.
I challenge any of you to e-mail me directly, with your real name, and explain why I should never be considered for the new Ansett.<hr></blockquote>
If the author of the above wishes to contact me, I`d be only TOO happy to tell him WHY he should NOT be considered for the new Ansett, under the terms he has scribed. He can call me direct on 09098806522.
Out of curiosity I wonder how many pre-Sept 13 non-scab, `hero-supporters` have had a change of mind, having seen our "I did it for my family" types, ONCE AGAIN screw the masses for their own reward?
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I think Kaptain M has finally lost it with this one!
His/Her attiudes are completely out of line with this post and feel that 1898 (1989 who care's) should be laid to rest.
Woomera I find this post extremely offensive as it is uninformed, opionionated and damaging towards Ansett please put the lock on it and tell Kaptain M keep his 1889 opions to himself. It was a generation ago!
His/Her attiudes are completely out of line with this post and feel that 1898 (1989 who care's) should be laid to rest.
Woomera I find this post extremely offensive as it is uninformed, opionionated and damaging towards Ansett please put the lock on it and tell Kaptain M keep his 1889 opions to himself. It was a generation ago!
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Toecutter, it will not be over until the last Pilot involved in the dispute is dead, as someone once said it not over till the fat lady (Fatman) sings.. .Looks like a long wait!
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Kaptin M. .Yep, your probably right given the misconduct of the others involved with the AN/FLEW deal. I bet there are quite a few changing their thoughts! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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Like a lot of things in life, people just don't care or aren't interested until an event actually affects them personally.. .Then the monkeys can suddenly see, hear and speak again.. .But by then its usually too late!
"Life wasn't meant to be easy!"
"Life wasn't meant to be easy!"
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The standard of personal abuse directed at your's truly,eg. . .toecutter,"I think Kaptain M has finally lost it with this one!", and. .RIVERVIEW1,"Take some more medicine and lay down Krap tin."
- rather than informed debate, would indicate that a raw nerve may have been touched.
The FACT is, toecutter, the actions of the scabs of 1989 are not restricted to only that year, nor only that generation of pilots - as you have insinuated with your,. . [quote]His/Her attiudes are completely out of line with this post and feel that 1898 (1989 who care's) should be laid to rest.
Woomera I find this post extremely offensive as it is uninformed, opionionated and damaging towards Ansett please put the lock on it and tell Kaptain M keep his "1889 opions" (sic) to himself. It was a generation ago!<hr></blockquote>
As Captain_Z said, "...it will not be over until the last Pilot involved in the dispute is dead". . .And if I might add, the children of many of those pilots were also old enough, in 1989, to know many of the infamous names, and still recall them today.
However, as if not enough, 12 years on, this same group of players - YET AGAIN - have re-played their rotten roles.. .12 years of trying to brainwash their co-workers with the "I had to do it for my family in 1989", has been blown right out of the water, shown for the LIE that it was all along.
- rather than informed debate, would indicate that a raw nerve may have been touched.
The FACT is, toecutter, the actions of the scabs of 1989 are not restricted to only that year, nor only that generation of pilots - as you have insinuated with your,. . [quote]His/Her attiudes are completely out of line with this post and feel that 1898 (1989 who care's) should be laid to rest.
Woomera I find this post extremely offensive as it is uninformed, opionionated and damaging towards Ansett please put the lock on it and tell Kaptain M keep his "1889 opions" (sic) to himself. It was a generation ago!<hr></blockquote>
As Captain_Z said, "...it will not be over until the last Pilot involved in the dispute is dead". . .And if I might add, the children of many of those pilots were also old enough, in 1989, to know many of the infamous names, and still recall them today.
However, as if not enough, 12 years on, this same group of players - YET AGAIN - have re-played their rotten roles.. .12 years of trying to brainwash their co-workers with the "I had to do it for my family in 1989", has been blown right out of the water, shown for the LIE that it was all along.
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Kap M,if its debate you want then I'm more than prepared to offer my 2 cents worth.. .Unlike now in 1989 I had no family so I never said that I went back for my family.. .I've always said the dispute taught me one thing "look after yourself" because at the end of the day no one else will,most importantly my colleagues of '89 who left me and others in their wake to trot off over seas to great jobs that us juniors had no chance of ever getting (yes,I did apply overseas),then to see the fat cat senior guys gloating how much super they received and then they were still going to get a a great job overseas.I should have applied to overseas positions at the start,but of course I was told by the AFAP "Don't worry son we'll be back soon", what a garden path those guys led me down,"overseas Pilots coming down here?.Crap"was the response by the union heirachy.. .It was lost after the first three months,but you were probably on your 747 ground school with SQ by then.I've said this before but not one senior pilot gave a toss about my or anyone elses predicament,even after 6 months you and people like you would have prefered me to give away my whole career and drive a cab for the rest of my life.. .I've also lost many good friends.Friends who are now doing very well for themselves in overseas Airlines.Life for a lot of these guys is just fine,life for a lot of AN people like me is not and I know you and your buddies revel in that thought.. ."Look after youself because no one else will" is what I'll tell people I fly with If they ask about the dispute,because thats what people like you Kaptain M taught me.. .Despite all this I do agree with some of your comments about people(senior Pilots)who made promises at the time and not only didn't keep them,but knew at the time they were lying.Just like people on your side Kaptain M.
"Always look after youself.because no one else will".
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Thumbs up ]</p>
"Always look after youself.because no one else will".
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Thumbs up ]</p>
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Kap M,. .Once again you are displaying slippery logic. I do not agree with the person who expects to go overseas for 3 years on contract and then return to AN in his "rightful" position.
BUT!
That is exactly what you and your ilk expected to do in '89. Would you not agree that you also wanted to have your cake and eat it? The only difference in your case is that your wounds were self inflicted aided by an incompetent bunch in the AFAP.
Thumbs Up,. .I have to disagree with you on the time that the dispute was lost. It was lost the moment the resignations were submitted and accepted. The rest of your remarks are spot on.
BUT!
That is exactly what you and your ilk expected to do in '89. Would you not agree that you also wanted to have your cake and eat it? The only difference in your case is that your wounds were self inflicted aided by an incompetent bunch in the AFAP.
Thumbs Up,. .I have to disagree with you on the time that the dispute was lost. It was lost the moment the resignations were submitted and accepted. The rest of your remarks are spot on.
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Well Thumbs up, you - by your comments - display the TRUE traits of a scab!. ...."LOOK AFTER YOURSELF" (and F#ck everyone else!). .Thank you for coming out into the open - which YOU would not have had the guts to do when you made your dash back for an accelerated promotion in 1989. And obviously early at that, with your ""LOOK AFTER YOURSELF" epitaph!
It must be a delight to witness your behaviour at buffets and social functions (not that I imagine you get too many invites, Tu!).
For your information, in 1989 I was an F/O, and commenced my first job after Ansett - with SIA - in October 1990.
FSU, I expected that this aspect would be raised [quote]That is exactly what you and your ilk expected to do in '89. Would you not agree that you also wanted to have your cake and eat it?<hr></blockquote>
The stance of the AFAP and ALL the pilots who constituted it was - from the beginning thru' to the end - "an orderly return to work". Throughout the 1989 dispute ALL unanimously agreed that the existing Seniority system was to remain intact - to stop scabs such as Thumbs up from queue-jumping, as he DID at the first opportunity, and continued to espouse following his return.. .Had the dispute been handled as was the norm, with a NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT, I guess the Federation would have put some time cap on the length of service permitted o/s, and still returning with one's original seniority number and position.
Of course APA had no such agreement with their members, but rather, followed "Scabs' Rules".......LOOK AFTER YOURSELF - F*CK EVERYONE ELSE!
It must be a delight to witness your behaviour at buffets and social functions (not that I imagine you get too many invites, Tu!).
For your information, in 1989 I was an F/O, and commenced my first job after Ansett - with SIA - in October 1990.
FSU, I expected that this aspect would be raised [quote]That is exactly what you and your ilk expected to do in '89. Would you not agree that you also wanted to have your cake and eat it?<hr></blockquote>
The stance of the AFAP and ALL the pilots who constituted it was - from the beginning thru' to the end - "an orderly return to work". Throughout the 1989 dispute ALL unanimously agreed that the existing Seniority system was to remain intact - to stop scabs such as Thumbs up from queue-jumping, as he DID at the first opportunity, and continued to espouse following his return.. .Had the dispute been handled as was the norm, with a NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT, I guess the Federation would have put some time cap on the length of service permitted o/s, and still returning with one's original seniority number and position.
Of course APA had no such agreement with their members, but rather, followed "Scabs' Rules".......LOOK AFTER YOURSELF - F*CK EVERYONE ELSE!
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KAPTAIN m.You seem to have a case of dislexia, what I said was, . ."LOOK AFTER YOURSELF BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WILL". .I said that three times in my previos post.You had better get that problem looked at ,not a good trait for an Airline Pilot.. .I have never hidden behind the fact I returned to AN,as you have acknowledged in a previous post.. .My little saying eventuated from lots of soul searching,maturing and finding out that people often say one thing and do another.I blindly followed the AFAP,senior pilots and people I respected for 5 months only to be trampled on.. .For your information I proudly walked into the AFAP office to tell them of my decision and offered a chance for them to talk me out of it,by guarantee of my job back.No surprise that that was not forthcoming.. .KAPTAIN m unlike what you seem to believe,not one returnee had Queue jumping on there mind.As is my case,all were going back to their old Jobs that the Union(yes the ones who are looking after our best interests)were happy to see go.We were all led like lambs to the slaughter,to little to late.. .I'm sick of typing ,but I expect your real problem is that you have finally realised that you to should have made the move.Am I right??.. .I have no problems with any decisions I've made in Life.People like you don't scare me one bit.
Its funny KAPTAIN m,I see we already are quite different people,for instance we both have a very different definition of INFORMED DEBATE!!!
Good Day to you KAPTAIN m
Its funny KAPTAIN m,I see we already are quite different people,for instance we both have a very different definition of INFORMED DEBATE!!!
Good Day to you KAPTAIN m
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As usual, KM is right, and TU and FSU are wrong.. .In truth, the very exisitence of the APA could be nothing other than the organisation which looked after the people who set it up, and not the membership at large, even though they re all scabs.. .It is the very reason why the AFAP from its inception, and under reasonably wise leadership, acted for the best interests of professional pilots.. .There were always individuals, small in number, who could never be satisfied with the AFAP, nor any organistion which didn't fit THEIR requirements exactly.. .Democratic institutions cannot satisfy all of the people all of the time.. .But all in all, the AFAP did a great job, until the scabs came into existence in 1989, led by the heroes we know as "golden scabs", and who took, and I quote: " the king's shilling", and the one who said that will recognise himself.. .The Quaintarse moguls of around 1983, imagined themselves better off under a company union. Not an uncommon thought, as many pilots were frustrated by the goings on in other outfits which did not have anything to do with them. (E.G., AN integration of the '70's).. .But the QF pilots would have done far better under the AFAP. They held greater sway than their numbers warranted in terms of power, but for certain people that was not good enough.. .Now, old TU, the bottom line is that you were, and remain, a scab, as will old FSU, and there are people who hold you in disgust, for your selfishness, and FSU's, clearly knows no bounds. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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meloz. .here are some links. use the search function for more.
<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=007589&p=" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=007589&p=</a>
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=007589&p=" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=007589&p=</a>
[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: Flat Side Up ]</p>
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It was a big grab for money. The AFAP went on a work to rule flying 9am-5pm only over a 30% pay increase with no offer to increase productivity. IE: Pure greed. The Industrial Relations Commision ordered the AFAP to resume normal operations or be lible for civil damages, as was covered by law. Some writs for damages were issued(and never persued by the companies) and the AFAP members resigned from their jobs, ostensibly to protect their individual assets. Their resignations have since been described as the greatest tactical blunder imaginable as the pilots were no longer be considered to be a group of employees,from a lawful perspective. The companies started to employ from overseas and GA, the 'Feds took jobs in GA and overseas and those of us in GA looked on in bewilderment. In my mind, nothing that if have heard or read subsequently( by the likes of TT2 or KM)has ever removed from my mind the hypocracy of many (but by no means all) of the AFAP members who took jobs in GA and elsewhere and chanted the mantra" dont take a job at the airlines or you're a scab". I have invited Tool Time 2 in previous posts to solve the moral paradox of this question and he/she has failed to do so. I'll ask the question again. Any may answer: ' How could the 'Feds lay a moral claim to 2 jobs at once?'Hmm? <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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ANFO
What a load of c**p. Rewriting history is not going to be that easy.
Meloz
There are many good references in the archives of pprune on the matter. However the best on is probably:. . <a href="http://www.vision.net.au/~neill/scabs89.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vision.net.au/~neill/scabs89.htm</a>
Have a nice day
What a load of c**p. Rewriting history is not going to be that easy.
Meloz
There are many good references in the archives of pprune on the matter. However the best on is probably:. . <a href="http://www.vision.net.au/~neill/scabs89.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vision.net.au/~neill/scabs89.htm</a>
Have a nice day
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ANFO I know you joined sc@bsett after the war which is why Im posting this to you. I suggest you bone up on your subject-matter pal and stop relying on the bloodey lies of the scabs and their ALP heros. You sound more like one of the Great Unwashed. And FYI (before you jump in) I took no GA job during 89. I had no bloodey desire to hang around in the country one second longer than necessary.
