Private Flying Whilst Employed Commercially
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Private Flying Whilst Employed Commercially
What are the Australian rules and regulations in regards to Flight and Duty Times for a commercial pilot (employed) who undertakes private flying?
Do the Flight times need to be recorded?
Do the Duty times need to be recorded?
Thanks.
Do the Flight times need to be recorded?
Do the Duty times need to be recorded?
Thanks.
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CAO48 is the only limiting factor apart from company policy.
You will need to either advise or at least seek approval from your employer, as they "own" your 900 hours a year (assuming you are fulltime employed).
If that's the case, you'll need to ensure any private flying you conduct does not put you in contravention of CAO48 and prevent you from carrying out your "paid" duties.
That's the general situation. Unless you work for QF mainline, it's pretty difficult to do any outside flying and still remain within CAO48.
If that's the case, you'll need to ensure any private flying you conduct does not put you in contravention of CAO48 and prevent you from carrying out your "paid" duties.
That's the general situation. Unless you work for QF mainline, it's pretty difficult to do any outside flying and still remain within CAO48.
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CAO 48 1 1.3 states that calculation of flight AND duty time shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations. We once had an operations manual section (approved !) that enabled us to count flight time but not duty time accrued in the course of private operations. I believe this was fairly common once, but is an operations manual matter, and not a CAO exemption. We were politely asked to change it some time ago.
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BIK, it was my understanding that you are correct, however it was pointed out to me that the wording was changed in an amendment back in 2000 I think. In reading that page, i.e. 48.1 1.1 and 1.3, it says nothing about behest of employer anymore. Plainly says that "calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations" So if you are required to account for flight and duty times, as per sect. 48, i.e commercial pilot, I would have thought that it now requires you to record and account for all flying time and duty time. I do recall that our previous Operations Manual did differentiate between commercial and private operations, but that was not Sect. 48. And as I said we were "advised" to amend manual to accord with the CAO's. Dunno, what you think?
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If your company has an exemption from Flight and Duty Time Limitations, then check with that. Our latest exemption now refers to private operations.
"Private Operations
Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of this schedule shall take into account ant flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations."
I would suggest that you should record private flying duty time, this would ensure that you do not exceed any limits, and get the required breaks or days free of duty.
Cheers,
Capt EFIS.
"Private Operations
Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of this schedule shall take into account ant flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations."
I would suggest that you should record private flying duty time, this would ensure that you do not exceed any limits, and get the required breaks or days free of duty.
Cheers,
Capt EFIS.
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BIK 116.8,
Fair point regarding definition of Tour of Duty. However, I once had a discussion with an FOI who pointed out to me that Duty Time and Tour of Duty are not the same thing.
The context of the conversation was based around whether a "tour of duty" occurred if the pilot didn't fly that day. The answer to this was no, however duty time was accrued.
Quite an interesting conversation...
Fair point regarding definition of Tour of Duty. However, I once had a discussion with an FOI who pointed out to me that Duty Time and Tour of Duty are not the same thing.
The context of the conversation was based around whether a "tour of duty" occurred if the pilot didn't fly that day. The answer to this was no, however duty time was accrued.
Quite an interesting conversation...
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BIK,
Just reconsidered things from our company's perspective, and having reread the part V exemption we operate under, I think we are required to account for all Flight and Duty times, as it specifically refers to private operations and under the definitions section, the definitions of Duty, as distinct from duty time is specifically spelled out. The exemption appears to therefore require all Flight and Duty times, regardless of Private Ops or not, be recorded. I should point out that this isn't really relevant to standard CAO 48 questions as posed above, but I brought it up for a little background information. It appears for our operation, we are required to account for all time.
Capt.
Your exemption appears to be the same as ours then. Personally I don't give a toss these days whether I have to record it or not as I don't do much private flying anymore, but it is interesting to "read the fine print" as such, eh?
BIK,
Speaking of interpretations, try taking an IFR charter into YHOT these days.............
It's a fun world eh guys?
Just reconsidered things from our company's perspective, and having reread the part V exemption we operate under, I think we are required to account for all Flight and Duty times, as it specifically refers to private operations and under the definitions section, the definitions of Duty, as distinct from duty time is specifically spelled out. The exemption appears to therefore require all Flight and Duty times, regardless of Private Ops or not, be recorded. I should point out that this isn't really relevant to standard CAO 48 questions as posed above, but I brought it up for a little background information. It appears for our operation, we are required to account for all time.
Capt.
Your exemption appears to be the same as ours then. Personally I don't give a toss these days whether I have to record it or not as I don't do much private flying anymore, but it is interesting to "read the fine print" as such, eh?
BIK,
Speaking of interpretations, try taking an IFR charter into YHOT these days.............
It's a fun world eh guys?
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I posed this question to my frendly local FOI the simple answer was yes you need to keep a record of flight and duty for private operations if your a flying comercial pilot. His Interpretation of the regs sure but Interpretations be dammed cao 48 is there to protect us from overwork and fatigue related accidents why not follow it ? also the coroners court would not be so interested in wether the people sitting behind you were paying or not during the flight hours previous to an incident / accident.
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A number of years ago when I had the 900 hr pa problem and wanted to fly my aircraft on days off or when not on duty, I sought and received a concession to exceed the weekly, monthly and yearly limits by 3hrs, 5hrs, and 50hrs respectively. The only limitation was that it was limited to “recreational flying in VMC” . The company and Chief Pilot were informed and did not have a problem so long as the flying was marked as ‘private’ in the log book.
The same concession was obtained by a number of other pilots in the same company and the wording was the same.
The argument that I used was along the lines that the CAO did not have the right to deny a licence holder of partaking in his chosen recreational activity – in my case flying at times when not required for duty – ie days off or after work. There were a lot of other activities that would cause far greater fatigue than flying a GA aircraft.
It’s a bit akin to telling a truck drive he can’t race his sports car on the weekend….!
I don’t know what the CASA policy is now, but if you have a problem that can’t be solved by arrangement with your company then seeking a concession is the next option.
The same concession was obtained by a number of other pilots in the same company and the wording was the same.
The argument that I used was along the lines that the CAO did not have the right to deny a licence holder of partaking in his chosen recreational activity – in my case flying at times when not required for duty – ie days off or after work. There were a lot of other activities that would cause far greater fatigue than flying a GA aircraft.
It’s a bit akin to telling a truck drive he can’t race his sports car on the weekend….!
I don’t know what the CASA policy is now, but if you have a problem that can’t be solved by arrangement with your company then seeking a concession is the next option.
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I don't know if this works, but have a look at a thread started 25 March 2002 by TAS 661 called 'private Flights and CAO 48'.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=22876
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=22876
BIK has it correct.
As for tour of duty vs duty period/time, a 'tour of duty' is a description of a particular type of activity - as defined in the CAO - while a 'duty period' is the time interval taken to engage in a tour of duty.
I'd suggest that 'tour of duty' gets a definition in the CAO because a specific set of activities are to be measured. The meaning of a 'period' in the normal English sense as per any dictionary is the meaning desired in CAO 48 - so no additional definition is given.
As for tour of duty vs duty period/time, a 'tour of duty' is a description of a particular type of activity - as defined in the CAO - while a 'duty period' is the time interval taken to engage in a tour of duty.
I'd suggest that 'tour of duty' gets a definition in the CAO because a specific set of activities are to be measured. The meaning of a 'period' in the normal English sense as per any dictionary is the meaning desired in CAO 48 - so no additional definition is given.
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BIK,
Our exemption has some definitions of course, and they accord with what you said.
DUTY : Any task (including positioning) that a flight crew member is required to carry out associated with the business of an operator.
Duty Period : A period which starts when a flight crew member is required to report for duty, until a flight crew member is free of all duties.
It then has the paragraph virtually as per CAO 48 WRT to Private Operations, except it says "all" private flying WRT flight and duty times recording.
Interpretative only, I'm sure, but a potential trap for the unwary and an FOI who wants to play hardball????
As I said doesn't really affect me anymore, as I don't fly privately much now. The exemption also does away with the standing 40 hr in 7 day limitation we used to have for late night ops too. Only have to consider 40 hrs if you utilise the split duty provisions twice in a 7 day period.
It certainly is a little different to our last one anyhow........... More "flexible" if anything......
Our exemption has some definitions of course, and they accord with what you said.
DUTY : Any task (including positioning) that a flight crew member is required to carry out associated with the business of an operator.
Duty Period : A period which starts when a flight crew member is required to report for duty, until a flight crew member is free of all duties.
It then has the paragraph virtually as per CAO 48 WRT to Private Operations, except it says "all" private flying WRT flight and duty times recording.
Interpretative only, I'm sure, but a potential trap for the unwary and an FOI who wants to play hardball????
As I said doesn't really affect me anymore, as I don't fly privately much now. The exemption also does away with the standing 40 hr in 7 day limitation we used to have for late night ops too. Only have to consider 40 hrs if you utilise the split duty provisions twice in a 7 day period.
It certainly is a little different to our last one anyhow........... More "flexible" if anything......
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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The dicussion of interpretation of the regs on this thread brings to mind a conversation I once had with an acquaintance of mine whom is a practising Lawyer.
He had read through various regs purely out of curiousity as he is not a pilot. His comment to me was that he was amazed that pilots were expected to understand and interpret them, as he as a lawyer even had difficulty in interpreting some of them.
'Nuff said!'
He had read through various regs purely out of curiousity as he is not a pilot. His comment to me was that he was amazed that pilots were expected to understand and interpret them, as he as a lawyer even had difficulty in interpreting some of them.
'Nuff said!'
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I'm just a truck driver who happens to have a pilot licence.
Isn't my boss lucky???????
Sorry, mis-read the topic. I though you meant working full time as a pilot when hired as something else.
:o
Back in the truck.......
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BIK_116.80,
Our exemption now allows us to work 7 days straight. It basically states that in any 8 consecutive days we require 1 period free from duty, and in any 14 consecutive day we require 2 periods free of duty.
"Period free of duty" being a minimum of 36 hours off which include 2 local nights from 2200-0500 hours.
If I wanted to do some private flying I would have to get it cleared by my company first, however, as I haven't done any private flights for a few years, it doesn't cause any problems.
Our exemption now allows us to work 7 days straight. It basically states that in any 8 consecutive days we require 1 period free from duty, and in any 14 consecutive day we require 2 periods free of duty.
"Period free of duty" being a minimum of 36 hours off which include 2 local nights from 2200-0500 hours.
If I wanted to do some private flying I would have to get it cleared by my company first, however, as I haven't done any private flights for a few years, it doesn't cause any problems.
