Virgin Blue Overrun in Darwin - CASA Report a Slamming Indictment on both VB and Crew
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OK guys.
We can sit on this thing all day and dig up reports of incidents on any airline we want.
Jesus Christ!..................I'll strap both mine and the arse of my family on a CX/QF/LH/KLM or BA airliner any day of the week.(SQ mmmmmmmmmm......I'd have to think about that one!)
If you want each of the above guys have libraries full of their respective incidents or fatal accidents.
Still,I know they can be trusted because of their standard of training,maintenance,dedicated staff and attitudes toward safety.
Yeah,big deal VB has had an incident.
A real company would recognise this fact,learn from the problem,rectify any irregularities and implement whatever is required so that it doesnt happen again.
The internal report generated is at least the first step towards sorting out whatever is needed.
No, VB is not perfect but then neither is anyone.
The fact remains that as an airline in this country the media will make it a target as long as it sells a few extra papers or fills their paltry nightly news slot.
Infotainment guys.........gotta love it!
Besides, negative press often requires additional advertising to overcome this does it not?
These prize goofs win both ways then.
As far as I can see we shouldnt be pointing fingers and blaming individuals,digging up past incidents etc etc etc.
It's pointless.
If VB can improve what they themselves describe as inefficiencies then we all benefit - don't we guys?
QF was slapped in the face at BKK and AN in SYD - the changes resulting from these went a long way in ending their complacency.
Gotta agree with Scooter on the point that in Oz flying is relatively easy compared to the rest of the world.
Anyone here can get complacent, and that is where problems may begin.
We can sit on this thing all day and dig up reports of incidents on any airline we want.
Jesus Christ!..................I'll strap both mine and the arse of my family on a CX/QF/LH/KLM or BA airliner any day of the week.(SQ mmmmmmmmmm......I'd have to think about that one!)
If you want each of the above guys have libraries full of their respective incidents or fatal accidents.
Still,I know they can be trusted because of their standard of training,maintenance,dedicated staff and attitudes toward safety.
Yeah,big deal VB has had an incident.
A real company would recognise this fact,learn from the problem,rectify any irregularities and implement whatever is required so that it doesnt happen again.
The internal report generated is at least the first step towards sorting out whatever is needed.
No, VB is not perfect but then neither is anyone.
The fact remains that as an airline in this country the media will make it a target as long as it sells a few extra papers or fills their paltry nightly news slot.
Infotainment guys.........gotta love it!
Besides, negative press often requires additional advertising to overcome this does it not?
These prize goofs win both ways then.
As far as I can see we shouldnt be pointing fingers and blaming individuals,digging up past incidents etc etc etc.
It's pointless.
If VB can improve what they themselves describe as inefficiencies then we all benefit - don't we guys?
QF was slapped in the face at BKK and AN in SYD - the changes resulting from these went a long way in ending their complacency.
Gotta agree with Scooter on the point that in Oz flying is relatively easy compared to the rest of the world.
Anyone here can get complacent, and that is where problems may begin.
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Scooter,
My old PAL,
You wouldn't be the F/O that got the hump and left because you reckoned that your command wasn't happening fast enough would you?
To answer your question..
Capn laptop - to quote the internal VB report " "The time taken to send the FDR for analysis was three days.This period was too long and unacceptable"
Also " Besides the non compliance with the regulators, the non reporting of the occurrence meant that the aircraft flew 10 sectors before Virgin Blue was informed....and could order a maintenance inspection"
The fact Capt'n Laptop that there was no damage was immaterial pal.What part of "unacceptable" and "non compliance with the regulators" dont you understand??
What were the crew non compliant with oh wise and great one?
If there was no damage the crew were under no REGULATORY responsibility to immediately report the incident.
Scooter, learn to ride a bike and get a life because you have no idea about what you are talking about.
It is impossible to suggest that there were not problems, but the fact that the company CHOSE to tell the crews about it, including the failings, means that the company is keen to make sure that the lessons are learned - not just forgotten with the passing of time..
My old PAL,
You wouldn't be the F/O that got the hump and left because you reckoned that your command wasn't happening fast enough would you?
To answer your question..
Capn laptop - to quote the internal VB report " "The time taken to send the FDR for analysis was three days.This period was too long and unacceptable"
Also " Besides the non compliance with the regulators, the non reporting of the occurrence meant that the aircraft flew 10 sectors before Virgin Blue was informed....and could order a maintenance inspection"
The fact Capt'n Laptop that there was no damage was immaterial pal.What part of "unacceptable" and "non compliance with the regulators" dont you understand??
What were the crew non compliant with oh wise and great one?
If there was no damage the crew were under no REGULATORY responsibility to immediately report the incident.
Scooter, learn to ride a bike and get a life because you have no idea about what you are talking about.
It is impossible to suggest that there were not problems, but the fact that the company CHOSE to tell the crews about it, including the failings, means that the company is keen to make sure that the lessons are learned - not just forgotten with the passing of time..
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Dan, I think the issue here is that DJ allegedly did not have a safety culture capable of dealing with such a situation, both during the actual incident, and in the subsequent reporting and investigation.
Everyone makes errors, but safety is largely derived from how you manage them...
Lancer
Everyone makes errors, but safety is largely derived from how you manage them...
Lancer
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Scooter,
"For those concerned the report was given to me by someone in the organisation that is concerned by what they have seen over the 18 months or so. "
"To those of you out there getting your nose out of joint about this apparently "leaked" internal report, it would not have been sent to me by this certain Captain with alot of experience unless they weren't concerned. "
I'm sure we all get the gist of the last statement, though I'm sure you meant to state that this very experienced captain mate of yours IS CONCERNED.
What I would like to know is, what is this limp dick achieving by sending a copy to you Scooter???
What can you do about it ?
Doesn't he know how to log on to the internet where he could post the whole internal report if he really thought that it would help letting the whole world in on it ?
Maybe shooting off at the mouth without the facts is not really a good idea and then adding judgement to boot really shows what a knob you are.
Stay in HK, people like you are not missed in OZ !
"For those concerned the report was given to me by someone in the organisation that is concerned by what they have seen over the 18 months or so. "
"To those of you out there getting your nose out of joint about this apparently "leaked" internal report, it would not have been sent to me by this certain Captain with alot of experience unless they weren't concerned. "
I'm sure we all get the gist of the last statement, though I'm sure you meant to state that this very experienced captain mate of yours IS CONCERNED.
What I would like to know is, what is this limp dick achieving by sending a copy to you Scooter???
What can you do about it ?
Doesn't he know how to log on to the internet where he could post the whole internal report if he really thought that it would help letting the whole world in on it ?
Maybe shooting off at the mouth without the facts is not really a good idea and then adding judgement to boot really shows what a knob you are.
Stay in HK, people like you are not missed in OZ !
Scooter,
I'll add my disgust at your post to the many others already on this thread.
While I acknowledge it appears a huge stuffup was made, your pathetic rantings have, in one fell swoop, probably put back open and honest reporting in Virgin by years. They are to be congratulated on advising all the crews on what happened, and your gleeful stunt at trying being the first to tell the world about this, complete with your own added comments, is disgraceful.
Safey is all about doing it right first time. But if it is not done right, learn from the mistakes of others and make doubly sure YOU don't do it. The most important facet of this is that open and honest reporting occurs, and this is what happened here.
Your raving diatribes will do nothing to encourage people to continue to either report or publish to the troops details of incidents.
Companies tread a fine line between deciding to keep a incident hush-hush and getting it out in the open, and rantings such as yours, obviously designed to inflict maximum "political" damage with no consideration to the consequences, will do nothing to convince the boffins in outfits to come clean for the sake of improved flight safety.
Also, must be a nice, company-minded so and so who gave you the story eh! With friends like that in the company, who needs enemies?
BTW, the word is "damning" not slamming. Indictments don't slam anybody or thing.
I'll add my disgust at your post to the many others already on this thread.
While I acknowledge it appears a huge stuffup was made, your pathetic rantings have, in one fell swoop, probably put back open and honest reporting in Virgin by years. They are to be congratulated on advising all the crews on what happened, and your gleeful stunt at trying being the first to tell the world about this, complete with your own added comments, is disgraceful.
Safey is all about doing it right first time. But if it is not done right, learn from the mistakes of others and make doubly sure YOU don't do it. The most important facet of this is that open and honest reporting occurs, and this is what happened here.
Your raving diatribes will do nothing to encourage people to continue to either report or publish to the troops details of incidents.
Companies tread a fine line between deciding to keep a incident hush-hush and getting it out in the open, and rantings such as yours, obviously designed to inflict maximum "political" damage with no consideration to the consequences, will do nothing to convince the boffins in outfits to come clean for the sake of improved flight safety.
Also, must be a nice, company-minded so and so who gave you the story eh! With friends like that in the company, who needs enemies?
BTW, the word is "damning" not slamming. Indictments don't slam anybody or thing.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 14th Jul 2002 at 23:43.
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Captn Laptop and Big Jan - no gents, I have neither worked for VB nor have any inclination to work for VB.
I'm quite happy in HK where myself and family have been for many a year.
Like I said in a previous thread Laptop, trying to ascertain who sent the in house report is immaterial.
This person doesnt do things without thought though.
How the company acts on its own criticism is paramount though.
Wouldn't you agree??
With respect to non compliance Laptop the words I wrote were a direct quote from the VB company report.
The words "unacceptable" and "non compliance" were carefully chosen by the man whom wrote the report.
From what other pilots tell the man that wrote this report is very professional and precise in his word selection.
In other words he is a thorough professional and his selection of phrases in my opinion are both appropriate and objective.
If you dont like his selection talk to him yourself.
Dont put words into my mouth Laptop - they were VB's opinion not mine!
Pull your head out of the sand,stop getting all emotional and look at the hard facts.
Capn Bloggs - Disgust! Outrage! Damnation! Impudence perhaps!
Mate, all I can say is the truth hurts and for a very good reason.
This should in no way affect the openess of the VB Flight Department in both the sharing and dissemination of relevant data with both flight crew and the regulatory authorities - especially where incidents are concerned.
To even hint at the fact that this would affect this vital process is in my opinion a vote of no confidence in those experienced aviators running the Flt Ops Dept.
You underestimate those at the top and possibly your peers Bloggs.
Unfortunately when you have the lives of thousands of the travelling public in your hands every day accountability and openess are a tantamount requirement, not an option!
I'm quite happy in HK where myself and family have been for many a year.
Like I said in a previous thread Laptop, trying to ascertain who sent the in house report is immaterial.
This person doesnt do things without thought though.
How the company acts on its own criticism is paramount though.
Wouldn't you agree??
With respect to non compliance Laptop the words I wrote were a direct quote from the VB company report.
The words "unacceptable" and "non compliance" were carefully chosen by the man whom wrote the report.
From what other pilots tell the man that wrote this report is very professional and precise in his word selection.
In other words he is a thorough professional and his selection of phrases in my opinion are both appropriate and objective.
If you dont like his selection talk to him yourself.
Dont put words into my mouth Laptop - they were VB's opinion not mine!
Pull your head out of the sand,stop getting all emotional and look at the hard facts.
Capn Bloggs - Disgust! Outrage! Damnation! Impudence perhaps!
Mate, all I can say is the truth hurts and for a very good reason.
This should in no way affect the openess of the VB Flight Department in both the sharing and dissemination of relevant data with both flight crew and the regulatory authorities - especially where incidents are concerned.
To even hint at the fact that this would affect this vital process is in my opinion a vote of no confidence in those experienced aviators running the Flt Ops Dept.
You underestimate those at the top and possibly your peers Bloggs.
Unfortunately when you have the lives of thousands of the travelling public in your hands every day accountability and openess are a tantamount requirement, not an option!
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Lancer,
I only know of this incident from my readings of PPRuNe and the press. I don't work for Virgin but have several mates who do. I can't see any evidence of a lack of a safety culture.
I fly with F/Os on a fairly regular basis that have come up through G/A and are reluctant to U/S an aircraft that has an unserviceability, simply because their experience prior to joining my employer is that one doesn't write up u/s's. However there is no lack of safety culture within my employer.
Perhaps the VB F/O, who I'm guessing came up through similar lines simply didn't have the fortitude to speak up. Or perhaps the Captain was overbearing and didn't invite input.
Either way, this doesn't indicate a lack of a safety culture within the organisation, it might, but on it's own I don't think it does.
I only know of this incident from my readings of PPRuNe and the press. I don't work for Virgin but have several mates who do. I can't see any evidence of a lack of a safety culture.
I fly with F/Os on a fairly regular basis that have come up through G/A and are reluctant to U/S an aircraft that has an unserviceability, simply because their experience prior to joining my employer is that one doesn't write up u/s's. However there is no lack of safety culture within my employer.
Perhaps the VB F/O, who I'm guessing came up through similar lines simply didn't have the fortitude to speak up. Or perhaps the Captain was overbearing and didn't invite input.
Either way, this doesn't indicate a lack of a safety culture within the organisation, it might, but on it's own I don't think it does.
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Fermion - your inability to provide a balanced or structured response impresses myself and others to no end.
It also gives your cause little justification.
If you disagree with my posting then so be it - but if you cant disprove or challenge my posts with a sound argument then keep your penitent insults to yourself.
Do you wish to tell Kap M to stay in Japan or Ironbutt to stay in Bahrain perhaps????........... I thought not.
On the bright side Fermion I've just purchased a very nice house in a Brisbane suburb and the family will be moving down in the next few months.
Send me your email Fermion and I'll even invite you around for a few beers perhaps!
As the man says, there's nothing that cant be sorted out over an ale.
It also gives your cause little justification.
If you disagree with my posting then so be it - but if you cant disprove or challenge my posts with a sound argument then keep your penitent insults to yourself.
Do you wish to tell Kap M to stay in Japan or Ironbutt to stay in Bahrain perhaps????........... I thought not.
On the bright side Fermion I've just purchased a very nice house in a Brisbane suburb and the family will be moving down in the next few months.
Send me your email Fermion and I'll even invite you around for a few beers perhaps!
As the man says, there's nothing that cant be sorted out over an ale.
Virgin Blue has a history of casting stones.
Its use of free publicity in lieu of advertising,sometimes in a way not witnessed in Australia before.
The emotion and sensitiviities of VB supporters,especially in levelling personal attacks on Scooter,amusing.
Tried getting more info/gossip on the incident and state of affairs from exAN pilots within VB.They are all tight lipped.Respect their silence,understanding they have already witnessed an airlines accelerated downfall from whistleblowers within(AN maintenance fiasco).
Its use of free publicity in lieu of advertising,sometimes in a way not witnessed in Australia before.
The emotion and sensitiviities of VB supporters,especially in levelling personal attacks on Scooter,amusing.
Tried getting more info/gossip on the incident and state of affairs from exAN pilots within VB.They are all tight lipped.Respect their silence,understanding they have already witnessed an airlines accelerated downfall from whistleblowers within(AN maintenance fiasco).
Re-read the last three pages and Im sure you will find it all there.
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Here here Capt Bloggs and others. Scooter your duplicitous behaviour is indeed a disgrace. Interlocution among the VB pilot fraternity is alive and well, and definately does not need the unintelligent and irresponsible reproduction of COMPANY material by people such as you. Did the person who foolishly showed you this report additionally give you their blessing to diseminate it to the rest of the world? I thought not!
Irrespective of what you were trying to achieve, YOU WERE WRONG!!!
The incident has happened, was very professionally investigated without fear or favour, and all the pilots at VB have learnt something from it. A storm in a tea cup is the correct analogy as previously stated. It was not the first incident and probably wont be the last. Just like most other airlines in the world, VB will get on with the job of providing safe travel for their clients.
With regard to PASS/FAIL CRM courses, what an idiotic concept. CRM and many other facets of ailine training do not require testing to establish competency. It is a MYTH that many people are not aware of.
Training and learning are fundamentally underwritten by the quality of the instructor and their method of delivery of the topic. There is usually no such thing as a poor student, only poor instructors. Sometimes there are exceptions but not many. Putting a test at the end of every subject can very often have a negative effect and significantly change the learning curve of the student, as they spend too much time worrying about the test and not enough time listening and absorbing the lesson content. I have digressed from the main point here.
Scooter please give it a rest. Nothing you have said or done on this subject (the overrun) can in any way be interpreted as constructive or educational. Best leave that for the professionals I believe.
Irrespective of what you were trying to achieve, YOU WERE WRONG!!!
The incident has happened, was very professionally investigated without fear or favour, and all the pilots at VB have learnt something from it. A storm in a tea cup is the correct analogy as previously stated. It was not the first incident and probably wont be the last. Just like most other airlines in the world, VB will get on with the job of providing safe travel for their clients.
With regard to PASS/FAIL CRM courses, what an idiotic concept. CRM and many other facets of ailine training do not require testing to establish competency. It is a MYTH that many people are not aware of.
Training and learning are fundamentally underwritten by the quality of the instructor and their method of delivery of the topic. There is usually no such thing as a poor student, only poor instructors. Sometimes there are exceptions but not many. Putting a test at the end of every subject can very often have a negative effect and significantly change the learning curve of the student, as they spend too much time worrying about the test and not enough time listening and absorbing the lesson content. I have digressed from the main point here.
Scooter please give it a rest. Nothing you have said or done on this subject (the overrun) can in any way be interpreted as constructive or educational. Best leave that for the professionals I believe.
Bugsmasha
Like most professional pilots,I find learning from others mistakes a great training aid.
Would love to clarify the bit about the flaps still rolling whilst over the threshold!
Had a similar incident in AN-minus the over run.In the ensueing investigation,the guilty American F/Os main concern was as to whether he was being paid overtime for his trouble.
Like most professional pilots,I find learning from others mistakes a great training aid.
Would love to clarify the bit about the flaps still rolling whilst over the threshold!
Had a similar incident in AN-minus the over run.In the ensueing investigation,the guilty American F/Os main concern was as to whether he was being paid overtime for his trouble.
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Gnadenburg,
I don't give a rats arse about VB.Except that it employs many people and therefore I would not really like to see the company fail.
Scooter ,
This so called " personal attack on you" (Gnadenburg) was simply a question which you have still not answered.
Your inability to provide a balanced or structured response to my question impresses me no end.
It also gives your cause (which is ???) no justification.
So how about an answer Scooter !
Why did the limp dick who does not do things without thought send you this report and what can you do to ease this persons concerns about the company he is working for?
I don't give a rats arse about VB.Except that it employs many people and therefore I would not really like to see the company fail.
Scooter ,
This so called " personal attack on you" (Gnadenburg) was simply a question which you have still not answered.
Your inability to provide a balanced or structured response to my question impresses me no end.
It also gives your cause (which is ???) no justification.
So how about an answer Scooter !
Why did the limp dick who does not do things without thought send you this report and what can you do to ease this persons concerns about the company he is working for?
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Ah Gahd.............. isn't this wonderful, just like the old days when AN was around, except know its on hammer and tongs between VB and QF.
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Big Jan to quote you old son:
"Maybe shooting off at the mouth without the facts is not really a good idea and then adding judgement to boot really shows what a knob you are"
Shooting off at the mouth without the facts???
Big Jan - everything I quoted was factual and directly out of the VB report itself!
If you are to blame someone Jan like I said blame those responsible or VB themselves for writing this report.
Your co workers caused this incident and were harshly criticised by your own organisation - those were the plain hard facts.
You can call me whatever names you want Jan but it does nothing to deter from the raw facts of this incident and name calling only highlights your emotion and frustration at the truth along with your inability to express yourself Big Jan.
Thanks to the other party for mentioning the facts that the flaps were selected above their maximum extension speed on short finals and the flap limiting system intervened.
Going to criticise me for that Jan???
What we have here is a gloves off situation as someone said.
It's all right to criticise QF,the old AN and whoever you want but mention something about Virgin Blue (especially facts as their own report reads) and you instantly get hounded down,criticised and become an instant outcast.
VB is a business,it carries the public and their actions are open to scrutiny.
If I've offended anyone then thats tough luck guys.
As I said fellas..........the truth hurts.
NOT HAPPY JAN????????
"Maybe shooting off at the mouth without the facts is not really a good idea and then adding judgement to boot really shows what a knob you are"
Shooting off at the mouth without the facts???
Big Jan - everything I quoted was factual and directly out of the VB report itself!
If you are to blame someone Jan like I said blame those responsible or VB themselves for writing this report.
Your co workers caused this incident and were harshly criticised by your own organisation - those were the plain hard facts.
You can call me whatever names you want Jan but it does nothing to deter from the raw facts of this incident and name calling only highlights your emotion and frustration at the truth along with your inability to express yourself Big Jan.
Thanks to the other party for mentioning the facts that the flaps were selected above their maximum extension speed on short finals and the flap limiting system intervened.
Going to criticise me for that Jan???
What we have here is a gloves off situation as someone said.
It's all right to criticise QF,the old AN and whoever you want but mention something about Virgin Blue (especially facts as their own report reads) and you instantly get hounded down,criticised and become an instant outcast.
VB is a business,it carries the public and their actions are open to scrutiny.
If I've offended anyone then thats tough luck guys.
As I said fellas..........the truth hurts.
NOT HAPPY JAN????????
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
You don't get it, do you Scooter!!
The TITLE of the thread that YOU fabricated - "CASA report a Slamming Indictment on both VB and Crew" - is fallacious....it was NOT a CASA report, nor is the terminology "a slamming indictment" used ANYWHERE in the internal report, nor mention of "Virgin Blues woefully lacking CRM course"!
A report that some gutless pawn has passed on to you. Gutless because HE didn't have the courage to post it himself.
Or is it YOU, Scooter, being the opportunist you are - did you take UNFAIR advantage of confidential information shared by someone who thought you were a friend?
Post the report again, in its entirity, and devoid of your embellishments.
Certainly there ARE lessons to be learned from reports of this type, but in this thread your thinly-veiled attempt to portray your impartiality has not been successful.
In the main, this topic has generated discussion on YOUR presentation of it, rather than of the subject matter itself!
The TITLE of the thread that YOU fabricated - "CASA report a Slamming Indictment on both VB and Crew" - is fallacious....it was NOT a CASA report, nor is the terminology "a slamming indictment" used ANYWHERE in the internal report, nor mention of "Virgin Blues woefully lacking CRM course"!
A report that some gutless pawn has passed on to you. Gutless because HE didn't have the courage to post it himself.
Or is it YOU, Scooter, being the opportunist you are - did you take UNFAIR advantage of confidential information shared by someone who thought you were a friend?
Post the report again, in its entirity, and devoid of your embellishments.
Certainly there ARE lessons to be learned from reports of this type, but in this thread your thinly-veiled attempt to portray your impartiality has not been successful.
In the main, this topic has generated discussion on YOUR presentation of it, rather than of the subject matter itself!
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I vividly remember the "VB professionals" shuffling through the terminal scowling (and making strange clicking sounds) at anyone who looked old enough to be involved in you know what.
Dark clouds ahead gentlemen. Thirty aircraft is getting serious and requires a little more than "AN is dead do-dah, do-dah sing-a-longs" during CRM training.
Why the need to (wrongly imply) that the Capt. was ex An? Has the upper management a chip on the shoulder?
Dark clouds ahead gentlemen. Thirty aircraft is getting serious and requires a little more than "AN is dead do-dah, do-dah sing-a-longs" during CRM training.
Why the need to (wrongly imply) that the Capt. was ex An? Has the upper management a chip on the shoulder?
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Scooter - this report was apparently an in-house report and not CASA as stated.
A little sensationalistic perhaps but the facts were there and hit a raw nerve with the troops obviously.
The report was also fairly closely scrutinised by CASA after a recent Qld based CASA audit.
I believe the BNE office audit is now being repeated (as a consequence of criticism from head office) with a Canberra CASA audit which will be rather thorough.
The only complaint I hear from VB pilots is the fact that a certain pilot does alot of ferry flights from the USA and no one is game to question this because of who the pilot is related to.
(And I thought Qantas pioneered nepotism!).
Looks like nobody is willing to speak up for fear of rocking the boat not to mention other repercussions which is very sad indeed.
The other complaint is certain F/O's who are rather inexperienced (with only a few hundred jet hours) talking about their impending upgrade like its a god-given right.
Some of the ex HK VB Capts are also dissatisfied at having to work too hard for what they described was not alot of pay.
As I told them if they dont like it...................
Looks like some things never change no matter what the airline.
A little sensationalistic perhaps but the facts were there and hit a raw nerve with the troops obviously.
The report was also fairly closely scrutinised by CASA after a recent Qld based CASA audit.
I believe the BNE office audit is now being repeated (as a consequence of criticism from head office) with a Canberra CASA audit which will be rather thorough.
The only complaint I hear from VB pilots is the fact that a certain pilot does alot of ferry flights from the USA and no one is game to question this because of who the pilot is related to.
(And I thought Qantas pioneered nepotism!).
Looks like nobody is willing to speak up for fear of rocking the boat not to mention other repercussions which is very sad indeed.
The other complaint is certain F/O's who are rather inexperienced (with only a few hundred jet hours) talking about their impending upgrade like its a god-given right.
Some of the ex HK VB Capts are also dissatisfied at having to work too hard for what they described was not alot of pay.
As I told them if they dont like it...................
Looks like some things never change no matter what the airline.