Threat Of Strikes At Air New Zealand.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Metung RSL or Collingwood Social Club on weekends!
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dreamworld!
Far Cannard, I'll put you out of some of your misery Mateeee!
.........SQ were never ever going to buy any part of Ansett.
Not in a million years!
Air NZ should have known its place. It should have let SQ buy the other 50% of AN,
.........SQ were never ever going to buy any part of Ansett.
Not in a million years!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: home with mum and the kids
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nosedive, for your benefit I will elucidate.
I am not talking about union representation for Freedom pilots, I am talking about the very fact that NZALPA ALLOWED AIR NZ to establish a subsiduary airline which would constitute nothing less than a latent threat to Air NZ 737 pilots terms and conditions.
Since it's inception Freedom has overtly threatened to cruel your precious contract.
The time to oppose this has been and gone. One thing I learned in the short time in which I was 'employed' by Air NZ ............Never trust the bastards. So why did ALPA?
Like it or lump it, your attitude to the Federation will only assist the company in their efforts, perhaps a more co-operative approach to the so called sc*#s would provide that much needed united front.
Whiskery, FYI in 1999 Singapore Airlines made a formal and public offer of $500 million for News Ltd's 50% share of Ansett. In fact they even completed due diligence before Kiwi perochialism destroyed their efforts (I would cause it buisness ignorance except that would be too kind)
I am not talking about union representation for Freedom pilots, I am talking about the very fact that NZALPA ALLOWED AIR NZ to establish a subsiduary airline which would constitute nothing less than a latent threat to Air NZ 737 pilots terms and conditions.
Since it's inception Freedom has overtly threatened to cruel your precious contract.
The time to oppose this has been and gone. One thing I learned in the short time in which I was 'employed' by Air NZ ............Never trust the bastards. So why did ALPA?
Like it or lump it, your attitude to the Federation will only assist the company in their efforts, perhaps a more co-operative approach to the so called sc*#s would provide that much needed united front.
Whiskery, FYI in 1999 Singapore Airlines made a formal and public offer of $500 million for News Ltd's 50% share of Ansett. In fact they even completed due diligence before Kiwi perochialism destroyed their efforts (I would cause it buisness ignorance except that would be too kind)
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: on an 8 day pattern
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nosejob,longdong and all you other Aussie prats who have submitted your "helpful" replys to this post, TAKE YOUR'E HAND OFF IT!!!
AN was a dog and no amount of money would have been found to save it. Old, nay ancient aircraft and a fat, inefficient and lets face it arrogant workforce (talk to anyone in NZ flt ops as to the attitude). You fellas had no idea what routes were profitable and what was not and in the end you tried to take your parent under with you.Granted Air NZ made a foolish decision to invest in the first place and BIL and its representatives probably had a more than disproportionate hand in this event. But I think that SQ is breathing the biggest sigh of relief, sure a write down proportional to their investment but far less an amount than if they did go the whole hog on their own.
Now lets look at SQ, had a foray into India and China with no result, 49% of an ailing Virgin Atlantic and have said that they are not really interested in pouring funds into it. Do ya really think they wouldn't have gone the same way NZ eventually went (cut it loose)...do ya!!!
And lets also talk about something already touched on earlier in this post, Gov't assistance. The NZ Gov't have in effect taken a share holding in NZ and, granted they had little choice, but still endeavouring to keep within the bounds of business practice. Now, lets look at why the whole AN deal happened in the first place...QF. And more to the point the the preferential and, lets face it, shonky dealings of past Aussie Gov'ts. Firstly "forgiving" hundreds of millions of Australian airlines debt in the merger (best business practice...yeah right) and most significantly "Open skies"...nuff said.
now I have that off my chest lets talk about the point at hand.
AN was a dog and no amount of money would have been found to save it. Old, nay ancient aircraft and a fat, inefficient and lets face it arrogant workforce (talk to anyone in NZ flt ops as to the attitude). You fellas had no idea what routes were profitable and what was not and in the end you tried to take your parent under with you.Granted Air NZ made a foolish decision to invest in the first place and BIL and its representatives probably had a more than disproportionate hand in this event. But I think that SQ is breathing the biggest sigh of relief, sure a write down proportional to their investment but far less an amount than if they did go the whole hog on their own.
Now lets look at SQ, had a foray into India and China with no result, 49% of an ailing Virgin Atlantic and have said that they are not really interested in pouring funds into it. Do ya really think they wouldn't have gone the same way NZ eventually went (cut it loose)...do ya!!!
And lets also talk about something already touched on earlier in this post, Gov't assistance. The NZ Gov't have in effect taken a share holding in NZ and, granted they had little choice, but still endeavouring to keep within the bounds of business practice. Now, lets look at why the whole AN deal happened in the first place...QF. And more to the point the the preferential and, lets face it, shonky dealings of past Aussie Gov'ts. Firstly "forgiving" hundreds of millions of Australian airlines debt in the merger (best business practice...yeah right) and most significantly "Open skies"...nuff said.
now I have that off my chest lets talk about the point at hand.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Didn't Rishworth have the pilot employment contract in the early days of Freedom Air? And didn't they offer the next command slot on the 737 to the F/O who was prepared to take it on the lowest salary? Anyone remember how much (little) the winning bid was?
Don't want to rain in anyone in good ol' godzone's parade here, but just have a long look at the history of Safeair, the AirNZ FK27 fleet and QFNZ before damning the torpedos.
Nothing in aviation is ever what it seems - I'm sure an old fashioned piece of union busting is as much the game as cutting the flight ops cost base, but think long and hard about the market and the forces. Or, to put it another way, look very closely over your shoulder at who is hungry, rated and willing. And don't Air NZ management know it.
I wish you guys all the luck in the world, but a little thought while I'm still on my soap box; I don't think there is in the history of aviation one strike ever that has resulted in the pilot group coming out ahead or the company surviving long term.
Nothing in aviation is ever what it seems - I'm sure an old fashioned piece of union busting is as much the game as cutting the flight ops cost base, but think long and hard about the market and the forces. Or, to put it another way, look very closely over your shoulder at who is hungry, rated and willing. And don't Air NZ management know it.
I wish you guys all the luck in the world, but a little thought while I'm still on my soap box; I don't think there is in the history of aviation one strike ever that has resulted in the pilot group coming out ahead or the company surviving long term.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Well it's an IRS nowdays, but the AHRS were fun.
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ANZ pilots , for right or wrong reasons, will not get much sympathy from Australia as they are still hurting like hell over the AN mess which, if I remember right, drew a few fairly unsympathetic remarks on this forum from the likes of "Red under the Bed" and others openly stating that they were from ANZ. Sometimes a little honey and understanding goes a long way when people are in difficulty.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: ex EGNM, now NZRO
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to be off the original thread, but....
SQ could NOT buy the 50% of AN because of a clause in company ownership laws here in NZ. The law prevented it, not Air NZ (who actually WANTED it to happen, as it kept the Star Alliance alive in Oz)
Scud Driver hit the nail on the head - Ansett was already *****t before SQ or ANZ came near it - a clapped out fleet, with no commonality - was it 23 types in the fleet? 23 types = 23 type ratings, 23 different servicing regimen, 23 sets of tooling, etc.....
Still can't believe the FO pay is so low at Freedom though!
Scud Driver hit the nail on the head - Ansett was already *****t before SQ or ANZ came near it - a clapped out fleet, with no commonality - was it 23 types in the fleet? 23 types = 23 type ratings, 23 different servicing regimen, 23 sets of tooling, etc.....
Still can't believe the FO pay is so low at Freedom though!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is literally no sympathy for ANZ in Australia. Who could trust a company whose management delivered a "Litiny of Lies to a Royal Commision
Most Ansett staff knew that ANZ could NOT afford Ansett. It had been bleed by News Corp who where looking for a sucker to buy it. And ANZ should have known what the books were like as they had been on the Board for at least two years previously.
But they just had to have Ansett. Now they have lost it and stuffed up 17000 Aussies lives. I reapeat there is no sympathy for ANZ in Australia.
Most Ansett staff knew that ANZ could NOT afford Ansett. It had been bleed by News Corp who where looking for a sucker to buy it. And ANZ should have known what the books were like as they had been on the Board for at least two years previously.
But they just had to have Ansett. Now they have lost it and stuffed up 17000 Aussies lives. I reapeat there is no sympathy for ANZ in Australia.
Hi biggles51,
Please don't associate ANZ pilot's with ANZ management. The pilot's at ANZ are no different to the rest of us. They were not the one's responsible for what happened to Ansett.
Please don't associate ANZ pilot's with ANZ management. The pilot's at ANZ are no different to the rest of us. They were not the one's responsible for what happened to Ansett.
Evertonian
23 types in the fleet? How many years are you going back & including to get that figure?
You'll find hardly any AN staff saying it was a bed of roses before ANZ got in. We all knew it needed heaps of cash to basically start again, and at the time, SQ were willing to buy in & had indeed signed on the dotted line when those bumbling crusaders from across the Tasman screwed the pooch! (Before you start again, we know it wasn't the guy who cleans the aircraft in CHC that did it! It was a bunch of FW's on the top floor of a certain building.))
The real kodak moment was when they smashed all the piggy banks to pay for AN without due dilligence! Perhaps, at that stage SQ would've pulled out as well, unlike some, I don't believe we'll ever know.
Caveat emptor my friend.....
You'll find hardly any AN staff saying it was a bed of roses before ANZ got in. We all knew it needed heaps of cash to basically start again, and at the time, SQ were willing to buy in & had indeed signed on the dotted line when those bumbling crusaders from across the Tasman screwed the pooch! (Before you start again, we know it wasn't the guy who cleans the aircraft in CHC that did it! It was a bunch of FW's on the top floor of a certain building.))
The real kodak moment was when they smashed all the piggy banks to pay for AN without due dilligence! Perhaps, at that stage SQ would've pulled out as well, unlike some, I don't believe we'll ever know.
Caveat emptor my friend.....
Gday Whiskerey,
Very bold statements regarding SQ`s lack of interest in investing in Ansett.
Many felt to the contrary.
Not saying you are wrong but what are your statements based on?Intuition,rumour,wishing ill on old foes or facts?If the latter would be intrigued to hear more.
Air NZ
AN was in a bad way,granted.
Air NZs incompetence was manifested in many ways,accentuating problems.I feel their razor gangs did the most damage,cutting costs and expertise in all the wrong areas.Maintenance!
Once the razor gangs had their way,bring on reactive and continuous change.What a mess.
New Zealanders,from Helen Clarke down,love to blame their corporate failings on AN management.The razor gangs and continuous reshuffles make this convenience only.
AIR NZ Pilots
Torn between wishing ill and respecting pilots fighting for their conditions and rights.
Ill feelings spawn from the odd contemptuous post from Kiwi pilots in Sept.
Assume they are few,so good luck.
Very bold statements regarding SQ`s lack of interest in investing in Ansett.
Many felt to the contrary.
Not saying you are wrong but what are your statements based on?Intuition,rumour,wishing ill on old foes or facts?If the latter would be intrigued to hear more.
Air NZ
AN was in a bad way,granted.
Air NZs incompetence was manifested in many ways,accentuating problems.I feel their razor gangs did the most damage,cutting costs and expertise in all the wrong areas.Maintenance!
Once the razor gangs had their way,bring on reactive and continuous change.What a mess.
New Zealanders,from Helen Clarke down,love to blame their corporate failings on AN management.The razor gangs and continuous reshuffles make this convenience only.
AIR NZ Pilots
Torn between wishing ill and respecting pilots fighting for their conditions and rights.
Ill feelings spawn from the odd contemptuous post from Kiwi pilots in Sept.
Assume they are few,so good luck.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NZ/UK
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only reason why there was contempt from this side of the Tasman was that there were a number of posters who wanted to see Air NZ go under taking innocent hard working workers with it. Before anyone says "well that's exactly what happened to us at AN" the rank and file at Air NZ had nothing to do with decisions made at boardroom level.
For your information, myself and everyone that I talked to were gutted for what happened to our colleagues at AN but to wish the same fate on us is rediculous.
#1AHRS
You mentioned RUTB. I'll mention another. "Boeing Belly". His comments about Erebus were extremely hurtful and totally unwarranted....But wait he is Australian so I guess that makes it OK.
For your information, myself and everyone that I talked to were gutted for what happened to our colleagues at AN but to wish the same fate on us is rediculous.
#1AHRS
You mentioned RUTB. I'll mention another. "Boeing Belly". His comments about Erebus were extremely hurtful and totally unwarranted....But wait he is Australian so I guess that makes it OK.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will be flying LAX-AKL-MEL next week and will be arriving in AKL on the morning of the 19th. Could any ANZ pilot tell me if the proposed strike is still being considered so that I can make alternate arrangements.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Singapore Airlines had plenty of opportunities to pick up AN - had they actually WANTED to. Especially post Air New Zealand. SQ looked at the books and didn't like what they saw - simple as that!
No amount of "If ONLY SQ had bought Ansett" is going to bring AN (and your jobs with it) back! Times are tough for many of you ex-AN people, however if Air New Zealand does go under (temporarily - and that's all it will be, while the bean counters and management re-jig the infrastructure to re-employ less staff on reduced conditions) - which is what some of you appear to be wishing, there are going to be even MORE, more recent, highly qualified airline employees who are ALREADY working for (15-20%) LESS than YOU were, thrown onto the market in New Zealand, but undoubtedly willing to come to Oz.
The U.S.A. is in the process of introducing legislation to GAOL (that's "jail" for those of you with Yankised spelling tendencies) - for up to 10 years - company directors, managers, accountants, and financial advisors, who knowingly "cook the books" whilst plundering the company's money to feather their own nests.
Not before time, I reckon!!
Too many have been the victims of greedy, ruthless people who are willing to destroy companies and the lives of its employees, SOLELY for the purpose of increasing their own personal (usually already sizeable) wealth.
Focus the limelight onto THEM - the individual(s) who cause the destruction!
No amount of "If ONLY SQ had bought Ansett" is going to bring AN (and your jobs with it) back! Times are tough for many of you ex-AN people, however if Air New Zealand does go under (temporarily - and that's all it will be, while the bean counters and management re-jig the infrastructure to re-employ less staff on reduced conditions) - which is what some of you appear to be wishing, there are going to be even MORE, more recent, highly qualified airline employees who are ALREADY working for (15-20%) LESS than YOU were, thrown onto the market in New Zealand, but undoubtedly willing to come to Oz.
The U.S.A. is in the process of introducing legislation to GAOL (that's "jail" for those of you with Yankised spelling tendencies) - for up to 10 years - company directors, managers, accountants, and financial advisors, who knowingly "cook the books" whilst plundering the company's money to feather their own nests.
Not before time, I reckon!!
Too many have been the victims of greedy, ruthless people who are willing to destroy companies and the lives of its employees, SOLELY for the purpose of increasing their own personal (usually already sizeable) wealth.
Focus the limelight onto THEM - the individual(s) who cause the destruction!
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
Hear hear Kaptin M. If the Americans do the unprecedented, and send down a bunch of Enron and Worldcom beanies for lengthy periods, we might finally start to see some attention being paid to the concepts of corporate responsibility and accountability for decisions in a few other boardrooms. This industry - on both sides of the Tasman - has seen far far too many episodes of good companies and work forces being sacrificed to prop up the personal crusades and/or bank balances of management.
The way things are at the moment, it seems that execs can run amok with shareholder's money, knowing that the worst that can happen if it goes pear shaped is that they'll receive a massive golden handshake for the company to be rid of them.
The way things are at the moment, it seems that execs can run amok with shareholder's money, knowing that the worst that can happen if it goes pear shaped is that they'll receive a massive golden handshake for the company to be rid of them.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with Buster Hyman.... AN can't of been squeaky clean before ANZ bought it. Possibly one should be looking towards the previous owners to lay a portion of the blame. It was run down and full of highly paid executives last time I looked (well before the collapse).
I'm not saying ANZ wasn't to blame as well, but I think emotion is clouding judgement - in some cases, rightfully so. Having been through a similar shafting with TP NZ, its not easy to not lay blame.
As for Freedom paying peanuts; it's probably indicative of several monkeys at the top! Unfortunately many of their pilots have had several shaftings over the past few years, and it's a case of 'any job being better than no job'. Many use it to get experience before bugging out to greener pastures. I agree; maybe the industry should stick together and tell people like M.Y to get stuffed! Unfortunately there are many people clawing their way up the ladder that won't stick to the rules!
Air NZ staff; be really careful you don't end up like the QF NZ pilots. So busy sticking up for their 'rights' they didn't see the collapse coming. What's worse??????
I'm not saying ANZ wasn't to blame as well, but I think emotion is clouding judgement - in some cases, rightfully so. Having been through a similar shafting with TP NZ, its not easy to not lay blame.
As for Freedom paying peanuts; it's probably indicative of several monkeys at the top! Unfortunately many of their pilots have had several shaftings over the past few years, and it's a case of 'any job being better than no job'. Many use it to get experience before bugging out to greener pastures. I agree; maybe the industry should stick together and tell people like M.Y to get stuffed! Unfortunately there are many people clawing their way up the ladder that won't stick to the rules!
Air NZ staff; be really careful you don't end up like the QF NZ pilots. So busy sticking up for their 'rights' they didn't see the collapse coming. What's worse??????
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: All over the show like a madwomans crap
Posts: 494
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaptain M, I could not agree more. It is high time they are called to account for their decisions, just as pilots are when it goes pear shaped.
Longjohn, again your facts are wrong, I am not employed by Air NZ, nor would I want to be. I think we may be arguing out of different corners, and I see your point regarding Freedom, but see Sharfteds post above as to why it was probably allowed to happen "by ALPA", ie jobs for pilots. I think you may be slightly overestimating the power ALPA has over Air NZ. There are currently 24 Aussie pilots flying for Air Nelson, and of course QF domestic in NZ is crewed by Aussies, and there is nothing ALPA can do about it. As for the "Federation of Air NZ Pilots", aka scabs, they drove the thin end of the wedge into the rest of their pilot collegues by undermining previous working conditions. And I note they are "available for work" during next weeks strike action. My anger is saved for the beancounters who try to chop our (and by this I mean all pilot groups) hard won conditions. But more so at the pilots who scab, no matter what "nome de plure" they decide to act under,who directly enable the beancounters to do so by undermining efforts to at least maintain current conditions. If this continues, the job won't be worth it, as the pay and conditions certainly wont' be what we DESERVE. We are not bus drivers, as much as management would like to try and label and pay us as such. I for one am proud to be a pilot, and feel that the pay and conditions should reflect the responsiblity we have as professionals.
As for the AN collapse, that of course will invoke understandably emotive responses from those affected. But I do not agree with those who would wish the same on another group of fellow pilots. As stated, the NZ pilots had nothing to do with the AN collapse.
Longjohn, again your facts are wrong, I am not employed by Air NZ, nor would I want to be. I think we may be arguing out of different corners, and I see your point regarding Freedom, but see Sharfteds post above as to why it was probably allowed to happen "by ALPA", ie jobs for pilots. I think you may be slightly overestimating the power ALPA has over Air NZ. There are currently 24 Aussie pilots flying for Air Nelson, and of course QF domestic in NZ is crewed by Aussies, and there is nothing ALPA can do about it. As for the "Federation of Air NZ Pilots", aka scabs, they drove the thin end of the wedge into the rest of their pilot collegues by undermining previous working conditions. And I note they are "available for work" during next weeks strike action. My anger is saved for the beancounters who try to chop our (and by this I mean all pilot groups) hard won conditions. But more so at the pilots who scab, no matter what "nome de plure" they decide to act under,who directly enable the beancounters to do so by undermining efforts to at least maintain current conditions. If this continues, the job won't be worth it, as the pay and conditions certainly wont' be what we DESERVE. We are not bus drivers, as much as management would like to try and label and pay us as such. I for one am proud to be a pilot, and feel that the pay and conditions should reflect the responsiblity we have as professionals.
As for the AN collapse, that of course will invoke understandably emotive responses from those affected. But I do not agree with those who would wish the same on another group of fellow pilots. As stated, the NZ pilots had nothing to do with the AN collapse.