Virgin Blue in the poo!!!
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Virgin Blue in the poo!!!
So you thought DJ's never got bad press and only QF got the ribbing...........................
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Virgin Blue captain loses stripes over hot landing
By Darren Goodsir, Transport Editor
June 29 2002
The captain of a Virgin Blue aircraft that overshot a runway during a "hot landing" has been demoted as authorities investigate claims that the crew tried to cover up the safety breach.
It is the first serious safety issue experienced by the low-cost airline since it began flying two years ago.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau confirmed yesterday that it had ordered an investigation and would require the captain and other staff to be interviewed.
Initial reports indicated that Flight 467 from Brisbane approached the runway at Darwin International Airport "too high and too fast" because of sudden blustery tail winds.
Instead of going around, the captain decided to continue the landing.
The aircraft, carrying 92 passengers and seven crew, touched down far into the runway and stopped beyond the safety markings. There were no injuries and the Boeing 737-800, which stayed on the tarmac, was not damaged. But the incident, which happened at 11.40pm on June 11, was not reported immediately. Transport safety officials were alerted by airport staff who witnessed the event.
"The incident itself is serious but not devastating, but the issue of concern is that it was not reported as it should have been," an aviation source said. "That will be the major aspect of the inquiry."
Virgin Blue's head of commercial, David Huttner, said the captain, a former Air New Zealand and Ansett pilot with 28 years of commercial flying experience, had been reprimanded and demoted. He would be eligible to apply for retraining as a captain in six months.
"While the report was filed within the legal time frame, it did not meet our expectations internally, as it was not brought to our immediate attention," Mr Huttner said.
Pilots had been warned that the Darwin runway had been shortened due to some repairs.
It is understood the air safety regulator is also monitoring Virgin Blue's maintenance records, not least because of the huge strain put on the fleet since Ansett's demise.
Virgin Blue has the youngest fleet in the world but its aircraft have been operating non-stop as the airline seeks to pick up market share.
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Virgin Blue captain loses stripes over hot landing
By Darren Goodsir, Transport Editor
June 29 2002
The captain of a Virgin Blue aircraft that overshot a runway during a "hot landing" has been demoted as authorities investigate claims that the crew tried to cover up the safety breach.
It is the first serious safety issue experienced by the low-cost airline since it began flying two years ago.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau confirmed yesterday that it had ordered an investigation and would require the captain and other staff to be interviewed.
Initial reports indicated that Flight 467 from Brisbane approached the runway at Darwin International Airport "too high and too fast" because of sudden blustery tail winds.
Instead of going around, the captain decided to continue the landing.
The aircraft, carrying 92 passengers and seven crew, touched down far into the runway and stopped beyond the safety markings. There were no injuries and the Boeing 737-800, which stayed on the tarmac, was not damaged. But the incident, which happened at 11.40pm on June 11, was not reported immediately. Transport safety officials were alerted by airport staff who witnessed the event.
"The incident itself is serious but not devastating, but the issue of concern is that it was not reported as it should have been," an aviation source said. "That will be the major aspect of the inquiry."
Virgin Blue's head of commercial, David Huttner, said the captain, a former Air New Zealand and Ansett pilot with 28 years of commercial flying experience, had been reprimanded and demoted. He would be eligible to apply for retraining as a captain in six months.
"While the report was filed within the legal time frame, it did not meet our expectations internally, as it was not brought to our immediate attention," Mr Huttner said.
Pilots had been warned that the Darwin runway had been shortened due to some repairs.
It is understood the air safety regulator is also monitoring Virgin Blue's maintenance records, not least because of the huge strain put on the fleet since Ansett's demise.
Virgin Blue has the youngest fleet in the world but its aircraft have been operating non-stop as the airline seeks to pick up market share.
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INCIDENTS happen day in,day out; year in, year out all over the world. What I find amusing is how so many Australians lick their lips and stampede for the keyboard at the first sign of a stuff up by an individual or crew. If you want to report it fine, but let the experts deal with the FACTS and please keep your diatribic garbage to yourselves.
The great orators of days gone by are definately missed.
The great orators of days gone by are definately missed.
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Woah!
It looks like the media aviation journos have found a new whipping boy!
I reackon Mr Huttner ought to invest in a few freebies for the journos and send them along to a few VB parties with Sir Richard in attendance.
That way if a VB jet actually slid off the end of a runway and into a golf course, sustained major damage to the extent it should have been a write-off then the journos may try to ignore it and then reluctantly describe it as a "minor incident". (Sound familiar?).
Gotta love these journo's!! (not).
It looks like the media aviation journos have found a new whipping boy!
I reackon Mr Huttner ought to invest in a few freebies for the journos and send them along to a few VB parties with Sir Richard in attendance.
That way if a VB jet actually slid off the end of a runway and into a golf course, sustained major damage to the extent it should have been a write-off then the journos may try to ignore it and then reluctantly describe it as a "minor incident". (Sound familiar?).
Gotta love these journo's!! (not).
Nunc est bibendum
Geez, Timeee, you're wide of the mark there. QF hasn't run freebies for journo's for years. You only have to have been reading Australian Aviation a couple of years back to see that!
Some of your other detail is just wrong but some people just can't be told!
Some of your other detail is just wrong but some people just can't be told!
PHEW!!!
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If VB aren't happy that the crew didn't immeadiately notify the company and they submitted the report inside the legal time frame I would suggest they best look at themselves first and there ops manual before pointing any fingers as management tend to do very well.....
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Dearest Keg,
The chances are that I actually work for the same company as you and have been there a bit longer than yourself.
I believe if you dig into the truth you'll actually find my posting pretty spot-on.
If not then I would be glad to have you point out my inaccuracies and solicit a response from others also.
Or then again you may be on the side of those journo's that just love to sensationalise everything aviation oriented?
I think not.
But then again like I say the journo's are now taking no prisoners when it comes to aviation related incidents - and they now have a new whipping boy so to speak like I said.
Anything to sell newspapers.
Their perditious attitudes act only to potentially damage aviation in this country and slander what I consider to be very good airlines (QF/VB).
The chances are that I actually work for the same company as you and have been there a bit longer than yourself.
I believe if you dig into the truth you'll actually find my posting pretty spot-on.
If not then I would be glad to have you point out my inaccuracies and solicit a response from others also.
Or then again you may be on the side of those journo's that just love to sensationalise everything aviation oriented?
I think not.
But then again like I say the journo's are now taking no prisoners when it comes to aviation related incidents - and they now have a new whipping boy so to speak like I said.
Anything to sell newspapers.
Their perditious attitudes act only to potentially damage aviation in this country and slander what I consider to be very good airlines (QF/VB).
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human error
SHakesphear
I totally respect your comments and agree with you a 100%.
I'm sure the captain used his best judgement, but unfortunately, it turned against him. Is that not human nature!!!!!! People thrive on the misfortune of others....and it must give off a thrilling sensation to those envious ones!
He has had extensive flying experience, and it is his knowledge that got him where he is now. So such incident, would give people right to name his previous choice of employment? Mistakes don't stem from your previous employer, nor is it a reflection of a whole.
Why don't people stop for a minute to think of how this person may be feeling. Ok, things went wrong, and its liable to happen.
People are waiting for a wrong doing to occur with VB....and if i may ask, why is that?
I'm sure, working with VB, this pilot will regain his position, and will better himself from this lesson.
The reason for my post today is to let people know how it discusts me knowing that people await for a wrong incident to occur...gives me a sense of self satisfaction???
I totally respect your comments and agree with you a 100%.
I'm sure the captain used his best judgement, but unfortunately, it turned against him. Is that not human nature!!!!!! People thrive on the misfortune of others....and it must give off a thrilling sensation to those envious ones!
He has had extensive flying experience, and it is his knowledge that got him where he is now. So such incident, would give people right to name his previous choice of employment? Mistakes don't stem from your previous employer, nor is it a reflection of a whole.
Why don't people stop for a minute to think of how this person may be feeling. Ok, things went wrong, and its liable to happen.
People are waiting for a wrong doing to occur with VB....and if i may ask, why is that?
I'm sure, working with VB, this pilot will regain his position, and will better himself from this lesson.
The reason for my post today is to let people know how it discusts me knowing that people await for a wrong incident to occur...gives me a sense of self satisfaction???
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Tall Poppies
Shakespeare and ET,
How right you are. Prunes answer to ambulance chasers just can't wait to stick their oar in and have a go at the poor sod who it seems somewhere in his 28 years of aviation, got it wrong - and not that wrong as it happens.
It's Virgin, it's a nice new 800 so let's hammer the bar steward while he's down! Sadly it's an Aussie trait, the less endearing side of an otherwise great bunch of blokes.
You have to give people a break. He's already been demoted, yes I'm sure the maintenance dept are stretched but for Gods sake, they're doing a bloody good job all round. So get with the program dudes - VB are good for Australia and good for pilots.
Don't knock it.
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Shaker One
How right you are. Prunes answer to ambulance chasers just can't wait to stick their oar in and have a go at the poor sod who it seems somewhere in his 28 years of aviation, got it wrong - and not that wrong as it happens.
It's Virgin, it's a nice new 800 so let's hammer the bar steward while he's down! Sadly it's an Aussie trait, the less endearing side of an otherwise great bunch of blokes.
You have to give people a break. He's already been demoted, yes I'm sure the maintenance dept are stretched but for Gods sake, they're doing a bloody good job all round. So get with the program dudes - VB are good for Australia and good for pilots.
Don't knock it.
----
Shaker One
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"People are waiting for a wrong doing to occur with VB....and if i may ask, why is that?"
A wrong doing has and will continue to occur at VB just like any other airline on the planet. They are no different.
What many people would like to see is the press provide a little balance in its coverage of such events. If a QF go-round can make the papers then I am sure it is only fair that some of VB's little indescretions do too (and there have been several)
A wrong doing has and will continue to occur at VB just like any other airline on the planet. They are no different.
What many people would like to see is the press provide a little balance in its coverage of such events. If a QF go-round can make the papers then I am sure it is only fair that some of VB's little indescretions do too (and there have been several)
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A different perspective........
Hmmmmmmmm some interesting perspectives here but............
(bear in mind I'm a PAX, not a pilot here, no I have no allegiance to any specific airline)
I would be thinking along the lines off...... if this pilot is so experienced, and he made a smallish mistake (no worse than running an amber light as I understand it, after all he kept the A/C on the hardtop, no injuries, no damage) then lets be thankful the HE WAS in the hot seat. If another pilot with lesser experience had been there what would have occurred then? Would we be stepping out onto the 9th hole or worse?
I think some of the posters on PPRuNe are a bit ready to jump to the conclusion, or is it an assumption, that they would have made a different series of decisions and achieved a better outcome, when in fact without being there at the time you DO NOT KNOW.
Something to think about eh?
As someone else commented, I think Oz has some damn fine airlines with excellent safety records.
(bear in mind I'm a PAX, not a pilot here, no I have no allegiance to any specific airline)
I would be thinking along the lines off...... if this pilot is so experienced, and he made a smallish mistake (no worse than running an amber light as I understand it, after all he kept the A/C on the hardtop, no injuries, no damage) then lets be thankful the HE WAS in the hot seat. If another pilot with lesser experience had been there what would have occurred then? Would we be stepping out onto the 9th hole or worse?
I think some of the posters on PPRuNe are a bit ready to jump to the conclusion, or is it an assumption, that they would have made a different series of decisions and achieved a better outcome, when in fact without being there at the time you DO NOT KNOW.
Something to think about eh?
As someone else commented, I think Oz has some damn fine airlines with excellent safety records.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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If mrs gaunty hadn't mentioned it in passing, I would never have known about the go round in ADL mornin of the 22nd.
It was only mentioned in the context of a little sightseeing City and Beaches and spotting a friends house in Menindee.
No big deal, the crew were doing what we are all trained to do, if it doesn't look nice, we bug out and have another go.
Mostly we get it right sometimes we don't, we should not have to operate under the shadow of a Star Chamber Inquisition and the threat of having our finger and toenails ripped off on the hopefully rare occasion that sh!t happens.
No press, no drama except another 15 mins enroute.
The airline? VB/QF? doesn't matter and who cares, to say one is better than the other right now is a pretty tough call.
I flew 4 sectors as a pax last week on different airlines, only one got my eybrows going in the direction of up, from a safety aspect and that was to do with a couple of stray lifejackets on the floor under the seat, that, "they can stay there because it's too hard to get down there and restow them". Question, full plane, which seats were they from and who was going to miss out. I always check mine so I knew it wasn't me.
Now I am going to be a xenophobe, South African Capt on an Australian icon, Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
It was only mentioned in the context of a little sightseeing City and Beaches and spotting a friends house in Menindee.
No big deal, the crew were doing what we are all trained to do, if it doesn't look nice, we bug out and have another go.
Mostly we get it right sometimes we don't, we should not have to operate under the shadow of a Star Chamber Inquisition and the threat of having our finger and toenails ripped off on the hopefully rare occasion that sh!t happens.
No press, no drama except another 15 mins enroute.
The airline? VB/QF? doesn't matter and who cares, to say one is better than the other right now is a pretty tough call.
I flew 4 sectors as a pax last week on different airlines, only one got my eybrows going in the direction of up, from a safety aspect and that was to do with a couple of stray lifejackets on the floor under the seat, that, "they can stay there because it's too hard to get down there and restow them". Question, full plane, which seats were they from and who was going to miss out. I always check mine so I knew it wasn't me.
Now I am going to be a xenophobe, South African Capt on an Australian icon, Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Feeton Terrafirma,
I'm sure VB thought they were lucky this bloke was Captain. Hell they could have been stuck with one of the other hundred that landed that day within the runway confines! I guess they thought they were soooo lucky they made him an F/O just to be sure they didn't push this luck too far and use it all up.
We all stuff up - some fortunatly work for a company where we don't feel we then need to cover up to keep our jobs. Hell we can even visit golf courses and thats OK as long as we self report and preferably have a Cadet background. I think that was actually the S/O's fault anyway - he should have reminded the Captain to stop the aircraft.
As for having a GO at the South African & Zim pilots on the 737's, well from what I see and hear, we are luck to have them here. Like a breath of fresh air they have often a much wider base of experience than many of our people and do not seem to suffer from Grandpa rules they way many long term AA or QF pilots do. Perhaps that is why we see so many of them in the Checking and Training sections?
I'm sure VB thought they were lucky this bloke was Captain. Hell they could have been stuck with one of the other hundred that landed that day within the runway confines! I guess they thought they were soooo lucky they made him an F/O just to be sure they didn't push this luck too far and use it all up.
We all stuff up - some fortunatly work for a company where we don't feel we then need to cover up to keep our jobs. Hell we can even visit golf courses and thats OK as long as we self report and preferably have a Cadet background. I think that was actually the S/O's fault anyway - he should have reminded the Captain to stop the aircraft.
As for having a GO at the South African & Zim pilots on the 737's, well from what I see and hear, we are luck to have them here. Like a breath of fresh air they have often a much wider base of experience than many of our people and do not seem to suffer from Grandpa rules they way many long term AA or QF pilots do. Perhaps that is why we see so many of them in the Checking and Training sections?
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I remember seeing a doco that somes it up well..
With all the hours of experience, all the instructors that have taught them, all the training... he made that decision.. I think that proves any of us could do the same.
With all the hours of experience, all the instructors that have taught them, all the training... he made that decision.. I think that proves any of us could do the same.
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VB Captain sneezes!!!!!
Quick lets start a thread and disect what happened with all of our expert opinions!
How many things like this happen all the time, and don't give me that "in the intrest's of safety it is our duty to....so we can all learn from...." Because last time I looked this wasn't a basi forum! or is it now?
Quick lets start a thread and disect what happened with all of our expert opinions!
How many things like this happen all the time, and don't give me that "in the intrest's of safety it is our duty to....so we can all learn from...." Because last time I looked this wasn't a basi forum! or is it now?
Bottums Up
Feeton,
Without condoning the criticism, I suspect it stems from the human psyche trying to convince itself that, "I couldn't possibly do that".
Sort of a cerebral defense mechanism, akin to laughing at sick jokes.
Without condoning the criticism, I suspect it stems from the human psyche trying to convince itself that, "I couldn't possibly do that".
Sort of a cerebral defense mechanism, akin to laughing at sick jokes.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 2nd Jul 2002 at 01:49.