Controllers to Stopwork
While I can empathise with the controllers position, I feel that disrupting the traffic flow, having stranded pax on the front page of every newspaper in the country will amount to a PR disaster. The pax don't care about the merrits of the case, just that they were delayed. Additionally, struggling airlines such as Hazoz and kendall really can't afford ANY disruptions to their operations. They are on a knife edge as it is.
How about taking a page out of the Police disputes book, and get ASA where it hurts most, their revenie stream. The Police gave cautions instead of fines. The state government was quick to take notice.
I don't know how the major towers operate, I guess for charging purposes the paperwork form the towers/centres etc
is sent daily to the accounts dept in ASA, how about holding/destroying, or whatever the paperwork, the airlines won;t get billed, ASA loses a squillion each day. Airlines operate as normal....infact make a bit extra, pax are happy.
Everybody wins.
ASA will very quickly get the message.
How about taking a page out of the Police disputes book, and get ASA where it hurts most, their revenie stream. The Police gave cautions instead of fines. The state government was quick to take notice.
I don't know how the major towers operate, I guess for charging purposes the paperwork form the towers/centres etc
is sent daily to the accounts dept in ASA, how about holding/destroying, or whatever the paperwork, the airlines won;t get billed, ASA loses a squillion each day. Airlines operate as normal....infact make a bit extra, pax are happy.
Everybody wins.
ASA will very quickly get the message.
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Ozgrade & Flat Chat. Sorry, but getting support of Airservice's customers - Airlines - and their customers - pax - is surely not an objective of ATCs. Getting their attention is the objective. Given there is so much notice:
a) Airservices can go back to the negotiations with Civil Air with good intent
b) Airlines and other operators can make strong suggestions to Airservices to resume negotations to avoid disruption to their schedule
c) Airlines, other operators, and the travelling public can try to make alternate arrangements if required.
a) Airservices can go back to the negotiations with Civil Air with good intent
b) Airlines and other operators can make strong suggestions to Airservices to resume negotations to avoid disruption to their schedule
c) Airlines, other operators, and the travelling public can try to make alternate arrangements if required.
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Ozgrade3,
Thanks for the idea.
Almost all charging for other than GAAP aerodromes is computer generated from data from the TAAATS system, and not thru details sent from the major towers. The only details from the towers sent to charging is from airwork type flights that TAAATS doesnt capture properly.
The method the police use is a bit different, they have discretionary powers to fine or warn, so they use their discrection ;-)
Even if we had the data, we would never deliberately destroy data, that would be criminal.
As mentioned, this action comes at the end of exhaustive periods of trying to negotiate. Very hard to negotiate when only one side is prepared to
Thanks for the idea.
Almost all charging for other than GAAP aerodromes is computer generated from data from the TAAATS system, and not thru details sent from the major towers. The only details from the towers sent to charging is from airwork type flights that TAAATS doesnt capture properly.
The method the police use is a bit different, they have discretionary powers to fine or warn, so they use their discrection ;-)
Even if we had the data, we would never deliberately destroy data, that would be criminal.
As mentioned, this action comes at the end of exhaustive periods of trying to negotiate. Very hard to negotiate when only one side is prepared to
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Crimson Fruitbat
I am an Ozzie ATC, I would be interested in any details you could forward me about working in Canada.
You can email me back via PPRUNE or else [email protected]
Cheers Turnleft
I am an Ozzie ATC, I would be interested in any details you could forward me about working in Canada.
You can email me back via PPRUNE or else [email protected]
Cheers Turnleft
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Crimson Fruitbat
I am also an Ozzie ATC, I would be interested in any details you could forward me about working in Canada.
email : [email protected]
thanks mate and see ya soon!
I am also an Ozzie ATC, I would be interested in any details you could forward me about working in Canada.
email : [email protected]
thanks mate and see ya soon!
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Air dispute out of control
By MICHAEL OWEN-BROWN
12jun02
AUSTRALIA'S airports will be thrown into chaos on Friday unless there is a breakthrough in stalled industrial negotiations.
Air traffic controllers plan to stop work for up to five hours from 4pm, grounding all domestic and international flights at 32 airports.
A resolution to the dispute appeared unlikely last night.
The two parties yesterday accused each other of sabotaging negotiations.
The dispute is over possible relocation of air traffic control centres in Adelaide, Sydney and Perth to Melbourne.
Airservices Australia, which runs the centres, says it is looking at the moves, but has made no decision.
Civil Air Operations Officers Association president Ted Lang said centralisation would be a recipe for disaster with "serious operational and safety implications".
About 150 air traffic controllers faced an uncertain future.
Mr Lang said centralised air traffic control had been abandoned in the United States and United Kingdom because of safety concerns.
The chief executive officer of Airservices Australia, Bernie Smith, said he was appalled at the union's action, which had been timed to cause maximum disruption.
He said a contingency plan may be developed.
"The union says they want to talk – we've been trying to talk and negotiate for 15 months," Mr Smith said.
"The union is confusing corporatisation with privatisation. Corporatisation is simply moving towards an efficient self-funded organisation with a good business structure.
"In regard to work conditions, no air traffic controller currently employed will be affected by changes to career structure."
He claimed the union had stalled the talks by attempting to reopen matters previously agreed.
Compounding the industrial turmoil in Australia's airports, the union representing security workers has launched a campaign claiming security measures introduced since September 11 are inadequate.
The Australian Liquor, Hospital and Miscellaneous Workers Union plans to hand out postcards to passengers listing nine claimed failures of the Federal Government.
The union claims the Government has failed to enforce uniform security standards resulting in weak links in the airport network.
Assistant national secretary Joanne Schofield said there was a need for uniform signs and hi-tech screening equipment.
A Department of Transport report – which the Government refuses to release – is believed to reveal prohibited items are still slipping through the screenings.
"People are still coming out of different airports with different items," she said.
"The inconsistencies with people going through different airports must be fairly apparent to some passengers."
By MICHAEL OWEN-BROWN
12jun02
AUSTRALIA'S airports will be thrown into chaos on Friday unless there is a breakthrough in stalled industrial negotiations.
Air traffic controllers plan to stop work for up to five hours from 4pm, grounding all domestic and international flights at 32 airports.
A resolution to the dispute appeared unlikely last night.
The two parties yesterday accused each other of sabotaging negotiations.
The dispute is over possible relocation of air traffic control centres in Adelaide, Sydney and Perth to Melbourne.
Airservices Australia, which runs the centres, says it is looking at the moves, but has made no decision.
Civil Air Operations Officers Association president Ted Lang said centralisation would be a recipe for disaster with "serious operational and safety implications".
About 150 air traffic controllers faced an uncertain future.
Mr Lang said centralised air traffic control had been abandoned in the United States and United Kingdom because of safety concerns.
The chief executive officer of Airservices Australia, Bernie Smith, said he was appalled at the union's action, which had been timed to cause maximum disruption.
He said a contingency plan may be developed.
"The union says they want to talk – we've been trying to talk and negotiate for 15 months," Mr Smith said.
"The union is confusing corporatisation with privatisation. Corporatisation is simply moving towards an efficient self-funded organisation with a good business structure.
"In regard to work conditions, no air traffic controller currently employed will be affected by changes to career structure."
He claimed the union had stalled the talks by attempting to reopen matters previously agreed.
Compounding the industrial turmoil in Australia's airports, the union representing security workers has launched a campaign claiming security measures introduced since September 11 are inadequate.
The Australian Liquor, Hospital and Miscellaneous Workers Union plans to hand out postcards to passengers listing nine claimed failures of the Federal Government.
The union claims the Government has failed to enforce uniform security standards resulting in weak links in the airport network.
Assistant national secretary Joanne Schofield said there was a need for uniform signs and hi-tech screening equipment.
A Department of Transport report – which the Government refuses to release – is believed to reveal prohibited items are still slipping through the screenings.
"People are still coming out of different airports with different items," she said.
"The inconsistencies with people going through different airports must be fairly apparent to some passengers."
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Fruitbat lives......Good to hear you survived a northern winter. The top end is still here if you wish to return (ha) See ya over there sometime....
Interesting thread.
Friday shall be a fun day for all concerned. Hope it goes well for the ASA dudes. Certainly did not look as if they had the media support today on the big 3 TV channels!
Interesting thread.
Friday shall be a fun day for all concerned. Hope it goes well for the ASA dudes. Certainly did not look as if they had the media support today on the big 3 TV channels!
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Tupela....I don't think so (I like wearing Hawaiian shirts to work in summer and carving through the powder in winter). 
When are you going to break the shackles??? Email me via my profile if you want to discuss further.
When are you going to break the shackles??? Email me via my profile if you want to discuss further.
Thread Starter
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News just in:
Perhaps now both sides can stop posturing and actually talk and negotiate the issues.
Would be nice if Airservices sent someone who could negotiate truely and not have to be answerable to "Masters".
I understand if no agreement is reached by 28 June then it will go to arbitration before the commission, so all you nervous nellys can now relax. The 'threatened' action got Civil Air what we all wanted, a chance to negotiate.
I'm also told that the Commissioner is not happy with Airservices approach because they didn't follow the previously agreed path.
Tacolote.
P.S. I wonder how profitable Airservices will be if they don't turn staff morale around in a big hurry. There were at least 50 people suggesting to me tonight that they have no desire to keep working for this lot and had no desire to work overtime or take any risks when they felt a little off... Of course that isn't good for the industry and know doubt peoples professionalism will remain, even if the Boss aka Bernie Smith said we weren't professional.
Long memories Bernie......
The green grass of OS looks very enticing... CANSO, damn the electric fence...
Stop work called off
Air Traffic controllers tonight called off a planned stopwork on Friday following a successful conference in the Industrial Relations Commission, Melbourne.
Civil Air President Ted Lang said he was pleased with progress in negotiations with Airservices Australia at the conference which started at 5pm yesterday and finished at Midnight.
A statement issued by the Commission said agreement had been reached for a framework for discussion to be concluded by 28 June. In this period, Civil Air agreed not to undertake any industrial action while Airservices Australia agreed not to apply to terminate the bargaining periods before 28 June.
Air Traffic controllers tonight called off a planned stopwork on Friday following a successful conference in the Industrial Relations Commission, Melbourne.
Civil Air President Ted Lang said he was pleased with progress in negotiations with Airservices Australia at the conference which started at 5pm yesterday and finished at Midnight.
A statement issued by the Commission said agreement had been reached for a framework for discussion to be concluded by 28 June. In this period, Civil Air agreed not to undertake any industrial action while Airservices Australia agreed not to apply to terminate the bargaining periods before 28 June.
Would be nice if Airservices sent someone who could negotiate truely and not have to be answerable to "Masters".
I understand if no agreement is reached by 28 June then it will go to arbitration before the commission, so all you nervous nellys can now relax. The 'threatened' action got Civil Air what we all wanted, a chance to negotiate.
I'm also told that the Commissioner is not happy with Airservices approach because they didn't follow the previously agreed path.
Tacolote.
P.S. I wonder how profitable Airservices will be if they don't turn staff morale around in a big hurry. There were at least 50 people suggesting to me tonight that they have no desire to keep working for this lot and had no desire to work overtime or take any risks when they felt a little off... Of course that isn't good for the industry and know doubt peoples professionalism will remain, even if the Boss aka Bernie Smith said we weren't professional.
Long memories Bernie......
The green grass of OS looks very enticing... CANSO, damn the electric fence...
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Keep the issue in sight
It appears to me that the real issue was lost at times here. "The right to negotiate". We all should have that.
Comparison of jobs and salaries is a load of crap really. ATC is a highly paid job, but that is not the issue as such. If you can't negotiate with your employer you are fairly stuffed. In GA and aviation that is almost the norm.
I don't believe ATC to be a particularly stressful job and the system (Taaartss!) can be cumbersome as much as it is advanced. It doesn't do much for the terminal area with a wide mix of traffic for example, or at least not much if any improvement since its inception(Cairns for example). A good procedural controller at a place like that can save the full range of operators, money. There used to be around 11 staff in Cairns ATC, with the ACU under Tarts it became 30 or so...for what improvement to operators that use this airspace all the time? What economic viability considering the cost to the overall system? I'm not saying go backwards but get some sense into it.
Another point back there somewhere. GA pilots salary and allowance(s). Is there such a thing? Job security?
We are all professionals, and in the same industry and should, rather than look over your shoulder at the other bloke, have a look at what allows systems (beaurocratic and operational) to be accepted into the industry in a form of "gradual encroachment" to the point where it may be unacceptable by the users and operators within the industry itself. By the time it is implementd it is virtually to late to do anything about it but take drastic and expensive industrial action. A luxury ATC staff can (albeit reluctantly) employ.
I see this as, once again, as the top heavy end of the chain, the beaurocrats, not being in touch with the reality of the "coal face" and not willing to talk about it. The sad part is that it will happen again.
Comparison of jobs and salaries is a load of crap really. ATC is a highly paid job, but that is not the issue as such. If you can't negotiate with your employer you are fairly stuffed. In GA and aviation that is almost the norm.
I don't believe ATC to be a particularly stressful job and the system (Taaartss!) can be cumbersome as much as it is advanced. It doesn't do much for the terminal area with a wide mix of traffic for example, or at least not much if any improvement since its inception(Cairns for example). A good procedural controller at a place like that can save the full range of operators, money. There used to be around 11 staff in Cairns ATC, with the ACU under Tarts it became 30 or so...for what improvement to operators that use this airspace all the time? What economic viability considering the cost to the overall system? I'm not saying go backwards but get some sense into it.
Another point back there somewhere. GA pilots salary and allowance(s). Is there such a thing? Job security?
We are all professionals, and in the same industry and should, rather than look over your shoulder at the other bloke, have a look at what allows systems (beaurocratic and operational) to be accepted into the industry in a form of "gradual encroachment" to the point where it may be unacceptable by the users and operators within the industry itself. By the time it is implementd it is virtually to late to do anything about it but take drastic and expensive industrial action. A luxury ATC staff can (albeit reluctantly) employ.
I see this as, once again, as the top heavy end of the chain, the beaurocrats, not being in touch with the reality of the "coal face" and not willing to talk about it. The sad part is that it will happen again.
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Sounds like the ASA negotiators are fatigued and should look at a new contract with their employer. You people really aren't cut out for the job if it takes the threat of disruptive industrial action by Civil Air and a bit of brow beating by the IRC to get you back to the table.
"... to suggest otherwise is demeaning to the part many other people in the organisation played in this very important exercise" isn't it, BERNIE?
"... to suggest otherwise is demeaning to the part many other people in the organisation played in this very important exercise" isn't it, BERNIE?
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Is it on or isn't it?
NEWS HEADLINE - Thursday 13 June 2002
ATC Dispute
Further to our news from the 11 June, The Australian Air Traffic Controller’s union, Civil Air, has advised that controllers intend to strike on Friday 14 June between 16:00 and 21:00 EST.
AOPA has been in contact with Airservices Australia and we can advise members that we are reasonably pleased with the arrangements that are being put in place during the dispute.
All controlled airspace around regional Towers will become MBZ’s. Canberra and Cairns are still being negotiated, they might or might not be MBZ’s.
Capital City Airports will remain restricted areas. Requests from AOPA for GA aircraft to be allowed in on a ” slots available” basis have so far been rejected.
Military Airports, that is Williamtown, Townsville and Darwin are unaffected.
AOPA congratulates Airservices Australia for the consideration shown to GA. There was a time when the airspace would have remained shut and empty.
DC
ATC Dispute
Further to our news from the 11 June, The Australian Air Traffic Controller’s union, Civil Air, has advised that controllers intend to strike on Friday 14 June between 16:00 and 21:00 EST.
AOPA has been in contact with Airservices Australia and we can advise members that we are reasonably pleased with the arrangements that are being put in place during the dispute.
All controlled airspace around regional Towers will become MBZ’s. Canberra and Cairns are still being negotiated, they might or might not be MBZ’s.
Capital City Airports will remain restricted areas. Requests from AOPA for GA aircraft to be allowed in on a ” slots available” basis have so far been rejected.
Military Airports, that is Williamtown, Townsville and Darwin are unaffected.
AOPA congratulates Airservices Australia for the consideration shown to GA. There was a time when the airspace would have remained shut and empty.
DC
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The truth about CPI and the proposal
"To say that Airservices Australia’s proposal is less than the CPI increase is simply untrue. The current CPI is 2.9% " (Bernie Smith)
Correct, the current CPI is 2.9%. But BZZZZZZ - let's do some simple (repeat: simple) arithmetic with the current proposal, assuming 3% (*)
<edited calculations in subsequent post>
* further examination of ABS figures provides the following insight:
6401.0 Consumer Price Index (all groups)
MarQ01-MarQ02 2.9%
avg past three years 3.6%
lowest in last 3 years 1.1%, year to JunQ99
highest in last 3 years 6.1%, year to SepQ00
ie, 3% is on the conservative side
Also of interest is how the proposal compares to average salary increases
6302.0 Average Weekly Earnings
Private sector full-time adult total earnings (Feb01-Feb02) 6.4%
Public sector full-time adult total earnings (Feb01-Feb02) 4.3%
Correct, the current CPI is 2.9%. But BZZZZZZ - let's do some simple (repeat: simple) arithmetic with the current proposal, assuming 3% (*)
<edited calculations in subsequent post>
* further examination of ABS figures provides the following insight:
6401.0 Consumer Price Index (all groups)
MarQ01-MarQ02 2.9%
avg past three years 3.6%
lowest in last 3 years 1.1%, year to JunQ99
highest in last 3 years 6.1%, year to SepQ00
ie, 3% is on the conservative side
Also of interest is how the proposal compares to average salary increases
6302.0 Average Weekly Earnings
Private sector full-time adult total earnings (Feb01-Feb02) 6.4%
Public sector full-time adult total earnings (Feb01-Feb02) 4.3%
Last edited by 375ml; 13th Jun 2002 at 12:28.
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375ml,
Don't forget that we haven't had a rise since Jan 01. We got a fully funded productivity rise in June 2001, but we've had nothing since then. If they gave us 6% signon we'd still be behind CPI. They aren't offering anywhere near that.
I think that whoever is briefing Bernie, cause lets face it he's not involved in negotiations, is not doing a very good job.
Don't forget that we haven't had a rise since Jan 01. We got a fully funded productivity rise in June 2001, but we've had nothing since then. If they gave us 6% signon we'd still be behind CPI. They aren't offering anywhere near that.
I think that whoever is briefing Bernie, cause lets face it he's not involved in negotiations, is not doing a very good job.
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Deary me Blocka, I did forget indeed (knew it was worse than that when I last did the calculations!). To redo:
Jul 02, salary reduced by CPI 6%, increased by rise 2.5%, result negative 3.5%
Jan 03, salary reduced by CPI 1.5%, increased by rise 1.5%, result negative 3.5%
Jul 03, salary reduced by CPI 1.5%, increased by rise 2.0%, result negative 3.0%:
We're still way behind even after two years!
<edit: apologies if offence taken from previous post, I have found out an ASA negotiator is now off the negotiating team on stress leave>
Jul 02, salary reduced by CPI 6%, increased by rise 2.5%, result negative 3.5%
Jan 03, salary reduced by CPI 1.5%, increased by rise 1.5%, result negative 3.5%
Jul 03, salary reduced by CPI 1.5%, increased by rise 2.0%, result negative 3.0%:
We're still way behind even after two years!
<edit: apologies if offence taken from previous post, I have found out an ASA negotiator is now off the negotiating team on stress leave>
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I'm outta here.
Hey there Fruitbat - could you please add me to the growing list of controllers seeking to depart the employ of the world's worst employer. Would love to have any info you can give on Canada (or elsewhere?). You can reach me on [email protected]. Cheers,
Adamastor
Adamastor