Seniority or Experience & Performance

[SeaEagle]

I am sure this topic has been debated before, but times are changing.

So what is the current thinking.

With all the experienced and older pilots in the job market at the moment, is it appropriate the everyone starts at the bottom.

Aviation is the only profession where most companies do not recognise experience of new employees, or for that matter head-hunts experience & demonstrated performance. This is a wast of a valuable asset. Can it be justified?

What do you think?

[MrWooby]

Seniority is the only way to go. How do you qualify who is a better pilot. Having a rating system like Qantas is very subjective, you can fly exactly the same with two different instructors and get rated very differently.

If you have achieved a suitable standard for command, and you are the next in line then you should get the job. Not someone who is deemed to be older, more experienced or a better pilot.

Seniority is transparent, you can see where you stand in the system. The alternative is not, where your company can hire who they like. Personal likes and dislikes come into play, your ability to do a job rates less than if the boss likes you !

"Older and more experienced pilots" have had their chance and through no fault of their own are now in the job market again. Most of them, like myself are happy just to be in aviation. The experience thay have is not lost, it is still on the flight deck it is just that a different person is in command. The new captain will utilise that experience and they operate effectively as a team.

[Skol]

MW,
You've got it right. Otherwise it's what's known as the "grace and favour ' way of doing things. There's lots of terrific people in aviation but there's plenty of scumbags too, who would go out of their way to look after themselves and their mates.

[The Messiah]

I say best man or woman for the job irrespective of seniority.

MW why would you not want the 'most experienced or best pilot'? Uhh?

Seniority is nothing more than promotion by regular attendance, and some very experienced heads have left the industry as they did not want to go back to the bottom of the pile due to their current employer perhaps folding.

Dead wood with a high seniority number is bad for any company, airline or charter. Times are becoming too competitive to continue to carry them.

[Icarus2001]

Can anyone think of an example of any other occupation that bases promotion on the date of commencement with the company?

[topday]

Term of service with a company is the only way to go.
If the company has a good check system good pilots will be the only one's that are available.

If you have no seniorty it is all done via the mates club/suck hole system which is the prefered system used by the less than competent pilots who need a little sly lift to over come other short comings.

When a company uses that system it not only costs more, but it also endangers the whole operation by an increase in, and the promotion of incompetence.

[6feetunder]

Promotion is not based on date of commencement with the company. The opportunity for promotion is. The experience & performance bit are taken care of in two ways. Firstly the checks that we all do every year ensure a standard is maintained. As FOs command potential is assessed on these checks and any deficiencies should be noted and sorted out then. Secondly during the upgrade training process, experience & performance or lack thereof will determine the success of the candidate. Ideally if the system works there should be no failures during the upgrade training but the process does different things to different people.

In order to ensure a worthwhile career in a career airline there needs to be an equitable system. For now the only one we have is based on seniority. This works in the airline’s favour as well. Imagine sitting in the right seat for a while and for whatever reason, constantly seeing people junior to you getting the chance at upgrade or even worse direct entry Captains. How long would you sit there? Not long I imagine. If an airline is to have a stable predictable workforce, some guarantees need to be in place. FOs languishing in the right seat for indefinite periods would eventually lead to job dissatisfaction and complacency, two conditions that are inherently unsafe. To have Captains bouncing around to the highest bidder every couple of years creates instability, a lack of continuity and worst of all, no company loyalty.

Most pilots when they join an airline aspire to at least become a Captain, if not C & T or even management. To base opportunity for promotion on experience, performance and perhaps a little brown nosing as well would make for an inequitable system. Seniority is fair, transparent, keeps the ass-kissers in check and right now it’s the best system we have.

In answer to your poll, it is a mix of seniority and experience/performance. The seniority gets you the chance, the experience/performance get you the promotion.

[chinese chicken]

howdy all, long time lurka, so here goes the prune virginity

sea eagle,

not so really because your new employment is usually based on your your previous experience,

Icarus, how many pther proffesions are there with as much checking and constant reasseing of your perfomance, not to mention any other areas were such as, in ga if you **** up, in other areas of flying, your job is on the line?

and think of when you were a newbee, doing your time only to constantly have some one get a better slot in front of you, while you seem to be getting no where wondering what your doing wrong??

[Kaptin M]

Having worked under both systems, and with one airline (Singapore) that utilises a mix of BOTH, I'm an advocate of the seniority system. It allows monitoring of a pilot's skills, ability, judgement, and knowledge, as well as work ethics, before he becomes eligible for promotion.

The other system - employment by self-professed experience (most airline companies will NOT provide a reference, other than to say you have been employed by them) - unfortunately does allow the charlatans to sometimes bs their way into a position for which they underqualified.
It also allows the "promotion by suction" method, whereby he with the brownest tongue is able to grease his way ahead of better qualified people.

Icarus2001 asks, "Can anyone think of an example of any other occupation that bases promotion on the date of commencement with the company?"
Try Army, Navy, Air Force, and Police. Larger law and accounting firms also usually take length of time with the company into account when opportunities for promotion arise.
I guess McDonalds, Burger King, and KFC also promote on time within the company, pending proven ability.

[onya]

Couldn't agree with you more Kap M. The quickest way to ruin any unity and morale amongst a flight crew group is to promote people thru the group that don't have "the next shot at the title". Seniority gives you a "shot" at the position to be filled. Doesn't guarantee you though. You still have to endure the training and the subsequent checks. If you don't make the grade then the next guy/gal gets a crack at it.
IMHO it is the only way to go. And nothing pleases me more than seeing some brown-noser, who's only agenda is to jump the seniority in the company, get looked over for promotion despite his @rselicking efforts. Maketh me smile and gives all the crew faith in the system. Most employers would argue that it's costly but at the end of the day you have a content (if thats possible) flight crew group that know exactly where they stand in the pecking order.

Onya

[Satchmo]

A bit of both is definitely the way to go. With aviation being so unstable you can be gainfully employed one day and unemployed the next...so at least with the combination of both pilots have the chance to inject their expertise and experience in to another company without starting right on the bottom rung again. There is no other business that operates this way and if they did they would not last long in todays cut and thrust of corporate shenanigans and head hunting.

[onya]

Would be interesting to see if the responses to this topic would be the same had it been posted 12 months ago when the industry was experiencing rapid growth and promotion through the ranks was rapid in most airlines. Now that the tables have turned one wonders if some of the unemployed that frequent this forum have a different outlook on the seniority system to what they had in the past.

Sorry, just thinking out loud.

Onya

[Slick_Stick]

Having worked in a company without a seniority system and seen individuals passed over for someones "mate" it is obvious what the better option is. Without seniority you never know where you stand, depending on how brown your nose is.

All of us can fly Aeroplanes when your number comes up you do the training if you pass the you get the slot, you wait your turn. Its not that hard a concept.

[Lazarus]

Seniority versus experience

There are adv's & disadv's for both. Although it may seem fair, promotion out of seniority may create a bad environment in the cockpit for some personality types. This would be detrimental to CRM & therefore safety - which you would all agree is the NUMBER 1 PRIORITY!!!!!!!!!!!

I am at the wrong end of a seniority list with guys above me with much less experience & would love a fair system based on experience. However, safety comes first.

Perhaps a system that provides benefits for those bypassed would alleviate some problems.

Live long & prosper

laz

[The Messiah]

The original post was with regard to initial employment, not promotion.

Just as an example, there are plenty of regional Captains now who, thanks to Ansett, will never work in the industry again. Their experience and knowledge is lost forever.

Don't crap me that seniority enhances safety.........really!

[SeaEagle]

I am convinced that pilot seniority systems are on there way out. Weather we like it or not!

Airline executives do think the seniority system is costly in terms of time and money, and that experience & ability to do the job to a high standard at the best price and in a timely manner is their desire.

There are obvious problems with both systems. However, I consider that if we acknowledge the pressures on the airlines to be responsive to emerging markets and yet maintain the financial operating margins, we will need to be flexible and go with the times.

Best we have some input to the industry's future. Why not be pro-active and consider and discuss some alternatives that take the best of both and yet guard against the negatives. (is there such a system? Or can such a system be devised?)

Lets talk about the companies that take a balanced view and accept "experience & ability" without crushing those of a lesser "experience & ability" already in the ranks.

Lazarus -
Having worked in a "experience and ability" employment & promotion system for some years. It doesn't take long to get over the discomfort of someone "off the street" getting in above you. Everyone soon finds out there capabilities. If they don't deserve to be there, they feel the pressure very quickly and get itchy feet and find some excuse to leave.

There is also increased pressure on those who do the selecting. If they get it wrong they cop flack from above & below. So they work hard at getting the right balance. If the CRM in your cockpit is affected by this, your have bigger problems than whose sitting in what chair and may I suggest you need to look at the depth of your CRM & interpersonal skills.

[6feetunder]

Why don't you give us a little peek at your CV there SeaEagle, you know, your qualifications and experience. Perhaps it will allow us to better understand where you are coming from.

[Icarus2001]

Kaptin M

Try Army, Navy, Air Force, and Police. Larger law and accounting firms also usually take length of time with the company into account when opportunities for promotion arise.

My understanding is that occupations within the services are advertised and those with the requisite experience and qualifications can apply. I am pretty sure length of service is a minor consideration.

Chinese chicken

Icarus, how many pther proffesions are there with as much checking and constant reasseing of your perfomance, not to mention any other areas were such as, in ga if you **** up, in other areas of flying, your job is on the line?

Well I know tax accountants have to attend a course each year to prepare for the barrage of ATO changes. I guess most professions work on the basis of result assessment eg if a surgeon saves more than he kills he is doing okay.

[druckmefunk]

There is also a far more significant aspect to this argument. That is the theory that seniority is the single biggest detriment to better employment conditions. I am firmly in the camp of Command through seniority, for all the reasons previously stated, however, over the last 10-15 years, this has played perfectly into the hands of the bean counters. They know, with reasonable confidence, that most of their drivers wont leave for greener pastures, because they will most likely have to contend with a seniority (if it is a significant airline), and hence go back to the bottom. So most of us can afford a few employer swaps in our more junior years, but once you start making headway on the "list", then it becomes too much of a risk to move again. As you get into the top half of the list (command) it becomes increasingly unlikely that you will leave your position, unless an extremely lucrative contract appears. Fortunately for the bean counters, these are few and far between, so they do not pose a significant threat to the sharp pencil brigade. All this adds up to the fact that the more senior you are, the more the company can screw you, with little chance of reprisal. The only protection from this is from a Union. Most Unions are not cutting the mustard these days. Just look at Cathay and Qantas. I say this in the case of Cathay, because despite the AOA's best intentions, they have been largely inefective in helping the 49'ers and in Qantas instance (from anecdotal evidence, not first hand) the union is fairly factionalised due to the different fleet pay and rostering etc. (I have only chosen these two examples because i have some rudimentary knowledge of their situation from talking to ex members). I work for an airline with no union and a seniority list. We are getting screwed big time. We were once well paid (10 years ago), but now we are arguably the lowest paid 777 and 330 drivers in the world. (guess where i live). So having said all this drivel, I will summarise by saying that Seniority is definitely the way to go once you are in the airline, but thank heavens for all the airlines that don't have one and employ contract crews, as they are the ones that will offer me an escape from here.

[Icarus2001]

Nothing like having your cake and eating it too.