Huge circuits at Moorabbin and Point Cook
Thread Starter
Huge circuits at Moorabbin and Point Cook
Over the past two years or more, there has been steadily increasing complaints from pilots of poor circuit discipline at both Point Cook and Moorabbin. These involve ridiculously wide circuits flown allegedly by pilots involved with Qantas cadetships and Asian students. The costs to other users of these circuit areas is significant - leading to a phenomena known as Circuit Rage.
Despite pleas on radio by other users to keep circuits concise and correct width (so that everyone can get a fair go), there appears to be an increase of wide circuits flown by certain large flying schools in the Melbourne area. ATC are not concerned nor it appears are CASA.
Authoritive sources advise that this is an operational policy to get Qantas and overseas cadets used to flying jet airliners which have a different perspective. It is one thing to fly a 747 on a three mile wide downwind leg and five mile final - but to deliberately fly this pattern in a C172/Warrior/Seminole in order to emulate the big boys is arrogance and poor airmanship.
If this is indeed true, then no wonder the costs of flying training are sky-rocketing.
Despite pleas on radio by other users to keep circuits concise and correct width (so that everyone can get a fair go), there appears to be an increase of wide circuits flown by certain large flying schools in the Melbourne area. ATC are not concerned nor it appears are CASA.
Authoritive sources advise that this is an operational policy to get Qantas and overseas cadets used to flying jet airliners which have a different perspective. It is one thing to fly a 747 on a three mile wide downwind leg and five mile final - but to deliberately fly this pattern in a C172/Warrior/Seminole in order to emulate the big boys is arrogance and poor airmanship.
If this is indeed true, then no wonder the costs of flying training are sky-rocketing.
Not unusual at other airports around the country as well, I certainly was glad I was taught to keep them as tight as possible and was glad I was blessed with an empty circuit area when I lost the engine turning final, if I was following someone on a huge circuit I wouldn't have made the field...
Moderator
It seems to me that a sensible circuit is based on radius of turn (ie mainly airspeed) and that there is little to be gained (other than for the number of hours to achieve a reasonable number of training circuits) by doing a mini cross country on each leg.
If this philosophy is to fit the student well for super high key Challenger re-entry approaches, fine .... but how is he or she to fare in handling low vis circling approaches off a non precision letdown ? ... where there will be, in all likelihood, rocky bits just outside the circling limit radii ?
If this philosophy is to fit the student well for super high key Challenger re-entry approaches, fine .... but how is he or she to fare in handling low vis circling approaches off a non precision letdown ? ... where there will be, in all likelihood, rocky bits just outside the circling limit radii ?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
Age: 49
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes
on
10 Posts
Aaghh, the wide circuit, what a beatiful spectacle. Don't worry about it, as long as your flying you will encounter these circuits which probably are just clandestine observation flights to check out who has their washing on the line that hour. Having said that you must be careful if you do these circuits yourself, as you may get so wide you will need to do a 1:60 to find the airport again. Unless youve got a GPS and then just press the direct to function. Hmmm..
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: CHINA
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Centaurus, I completely agree.
Circuits down at Point Cook just gets wider and longer for those pilots coming inbound from Essendon or Moorabbin. I think the problem is coming from all those low standard flying schools, and instructors. Saw a plane doing a crazy 3 miles downwind down at 17 last Saturday, the pilot must be mad !!!
Circuits down at Point Cook just gets wider and longer for those pilots coming inbound from Essendon or Moorabbin. I think the problem is coming from all those low standard flying schools, and instructors. Saw a plane doing a crazy 3 miles downwind down at 17 last Saturday, the pilot must be mad !!!
best way I found to stop wide circuits many years ago was - very simply just keep on bunging in incident reports!!!
By continueing to do this it will eventually come to the attention of CASA & they will panic because it causes a 'blip' in their safety stats for the year - worked for me!!
Whoever is teaching these 747 circuits should consider their priorities and responsibility to the student, too.
I always took the main aim of circuits to be practicing takeoffs and landings. If your circuit takes 12 minutes instead of 6 you're doing too much droning and not enough good stuff!
I always took the main aim of circuits to be practicing takeoffs and landings. If your circuit takes 12 minutes instead of 6 you're doing too much droning and not enough good stuff!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Vegas
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Completely agree with the need to send a rocket up those who continue to fly these ridiculous patterns at PC. Last weekend one such offender insisted on commencing his base turn for 17 overhead Sanctuary Lakes ! Aside from poor airmanship, it gives the yuppies who live in that estate ammunition to argue their noise case.
Moderator
BIK,
I don't always agree with Centaurus' views (although I respect them) as we have significantly different backgrounds which colour our respective outlooks. On this occasion, though, indeed I do.
Centaurus is beset by these nuisance circuits as he instructs in the relevant airspace. While I don't get involved in that aspect, it does cause me to wonder at the apparent lack in desire to push for efficient operation inherent in these sorts of circuits. Plus, on the occasions that I might find myself in the same airspace, it tends to irritate me to have to track additional aircraft in the far distance for my own separation management.
I don't always agree with Centaurus' views (although I respect them) as we have significantly different backgrounds which colour our respective outlooks. On this occasion, though, indeed I do.
Centaurus is beset by these nuisance circuits as he instructs in the relevant airspace. While I don't get involved in that aspect, it does cause me to wonder at the apparent lack in desire to push for efficient operation inherent in these sorts of circuits. Plus, on the occasions that I might find myself in the same airspace, it tends to irritate me to have to track additional aircraft in the far distance for my own separation management.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why has GA adopted square circuits? Are we too proud to accept that the RAAF got it right with continuous cross wind turns onto downwind and continuous base turns onto finals. You get more landing and take-offs for the dollar and good tight circuits.
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
XP-72
Long time no seeum. How hangum.
As ever methods straight to the point
BTW have changed my email address and miss your missives.
Bargearse
Suggest when it may cause a hazard to air navigation.?? I'm sure that there is a Reg for it unless they forgot to transfer it in the current rewrite.
Centaurus
Agree entirely.
Are you forced to loiter and follow these guys if you can find them or do they have you turn inside them, either way is unsafe as well as unacceptable.
Mate of mine in Singapore Seletar used to knock out 10 minute circuits training boys on B707s going easy.... and stay in the circuit. Cant be too hard in a lightie.
john_t
Absolutely to the point
NASA will give them the former in the unlikely event that they get there if they can't handle the latter.
Got to teach em how to drain the swamp first. then they can deal with the alligators.
Long time no seeum. How hangum.
As ever methods straight to the point
BTW have changed my email address and miss your missives.
Bargearse
Suggest when it may cause a hazard to air navigation.?? I'm sure that there is a Reg for it unless they forgot to transfer it in the current rewrite.
Centaurus
Agree entirely.
Are you forced to loiter and follow these guys if you can find them or do they have you turn inside them, either way is unsafe as well as unacceptable.
Mate of mine in Singapore Seletar used to knock out 10 minute circuits training boys on B707s going easy.... and stay in the circuit. Cant be too hard in a lightie.
john_t
Absolutely to the point
If this philosophy is to fit the student well for super high key Challenger re-entry approaches, fine .... but how is he or she to fare in handling low vis circling approaches off a non precision letdown ? ... where there will be, in all likelihood, rocky bits just outside the circling limit radii ?
Got to teach em how to drain the swamp first.
then they can deal with the alligators.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: ?
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MMMMMM,
Wide circuits really do give you the sh!ts when you are trying to teach your student how to do it properly. And not to mention if you have an engine failure doing a wide circuit on 17L or 35R at MB, Springvale road is looking pretty good. Correct me if i'm wrong but wouldnt doing a wide circuit or long downwind at Pt Cook on 35 in a single engine require lifejackets to be not only carried but worn as on base and final if you had an engine failure in a single you would not be within gliding distance of land.
Wide circuits really do give you the sh!ts when you are trying to teach your student how to do it properly. And not to mention if you have an engine failure doing a wide circuit on 17L or 35R at MB, Springvale road is looking pretty good. Correct me if i'm wrong but wouldnt doing a wide circuit or long downwind at Pt Cook on 35 in a single engine require lifejackets to be not only carried but worn as on base and final if you had an engine failure in a single you would not be within gliding distance of land.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Dunnunda
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
U R Not Alone in VIC
Unfortunately this situation of circuits that could almost be logged as Navs occur also at Bankstown and at Camden.
Bankstown is a nightmare ... especially at night, single engine following some ~!@#@%$@#$ that will not turn base till overhead Warwick Farm (3nm from the Airport)! They seem to be taught this method from their instructors, and are flying the 'slow' trainers (PA38, C150 etc) so you have to slow down even more to wait for them to turn base.
They'd have to land elsewhere if they had an engine failure...
A challenge to slow down in a light twin, and not get angry at the $$$ being wasted while you do some recency checks.
Camden's the same. ATC have actually broadcast on more than one occasion to get the aircraft to "tighten up" their circuits, and I made the mistake one day recently of thinking that the PA38 ahead (and wide) on downwind was departing the zone. I turned base, only to be informed by ATC that I had turned in front of the aircraft ahead on late downwind ... that I was supposed to follow!
Anyway, ...had my winge. I guess an incident report for every occurance may give CASA the idea... and after speaking to BK tower staff, they are just as concerned about the safety problems.. especially with the combo of new pilots, wide circuits, dark, can't glide back to AD.
Bankstown is a nightmare ... especially at night, single engine following some ~!@#@%$@#$ that will not turn base till overhead Warwick Farm (3nm from the Airport)! They seem to be taught this method from their instructors, and are flying the 'slow' trainers (PA38, C150 etc) so you have to slow down even more to wait for them to turn base.
They'd have to land elsewhere if they had an engine failure...
A challenge to slow down in a light twin, and not get angry at the $$$ being wasted while you do some recency checks.
Camden's the same. ATC have actually broadcast on more than one occasion to get the aircraft to "tighten up" their circuits, and I made the mistake one day recently of thinking that the PA38 ahead (and wide) on downwind was departing the zone. I turned base, only to be informed by ATC that I had turned in front of the aircraft ahead on late downwind ... that I was supposed to follow!
Anyway, ...had my winge. I guess an incident report for every occurance may give CASA the idea... and after speaking to BK tower staff, they are just as concerned about the safety problems.. especially with the combo of new pilots, wide circuits, dark, can't glide back to AD.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Point taken Gaunty.
However, I'ld suggest that as long as you remain within the boundries of a ctaf/mbz and broadcast your intentions you can do as you d@mn well please. If broadcasts aren't being made or clearance from the tower not being got then it's cause for castration
When I was taught to fly circuits it was crosswind @ 500' after takeoff, downwind upon reaching cx height and base @ 45 to the threshold regardless of whether you were in a 152 or a 747. What are these guys at MB and Pt Cook being taught and why?
However, I'ld suggest that as long as you remain within the boundries of a ctaf/mbz and broadcast your intentions you can do as you d@mn well please. If broadcasts aren't being made or clearance from the tower not being got then it's cause for castration
When I was taught to fly circuits it was crosswind @ 500' after takeoff, downwind upon reaching cx height and base @ 45 to the threshold regardless of whether you were in a 152 or a 747. What are these guys at MB and Pt Cook being taught and why?
Thread Starter
Being a freelance instructor I am in the enviable position of being able to pick and choose my students. Because of the prevalence of cross-country circuits at Point Cook and these are caused just as much by visiting flying schools as well as the big school there, I schedule my ab-initio dual and solo flights early in the morning 0700.I hate getting up early but the sheer pleasure of teaching circuits on a crisp calm early morning is worth the agony of waking up in the dark, tripping over the bleeding cat that wants to be fed and gashing my chin with a razor while half asleep in the shower.
With no wind and not a plane in the sky we have the circuit all to ourselves. The students progess is gratifying and the time to first solo usually under eight hours. Then when you hear the first of the inbound mob calling All Stations Point Cook - Altona South inbound, you know that it is time to head for home lest circuit rage overcome you...
Last edited by Centaurus; 11th Apr 2002 at 13:59.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A question from Canada.
Are you guys talking about the same caliber of instructors we have up here?
Beautiful stabalized three mile final in Cessna 172, need twenty thousand feet of runway to finally land on the nosewheel?
............................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Are you guys talking about the same caliber of instructors we have up here?
Beautiful stabalized three mile final in Cessna 172, need twenty thousand feet of runway to finally land on the nosewheel?
............................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.