National Jet admits admits unsafe planes due to oil fumes
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Slander? No I was just creating a hypothetical.
My point was to raise the question, should a company be forced to continue to employ unwanted trouble makers? And in todays industrial relations environment,how are they supposed to deal with them?
Was not suggesting that the 146 does not have a fume problem, although I can say that the problem has been addressed and the incidence has been greatly reduced.
Gaunty's comment was valid. Some people can't even smell it let alone be effected by it. Others I suggest may smell it, be uneffected, but be inclined to use it to their advantage.Then of course there are those that do have a reaction.
What is a company supposed to do with these people? Do they continue to employ people who cannot carry out their duties and who will most likely file a law suit against them? Or,shut shop maybe?
My point was to raise the question, should a company be forced to continue to employ unwanted trouble makers? And in todays industrial relations environment,how are they supposed to deal with them?
Was not suggesting that the 146 does not have a fume problem, although I can say that the problem has been addressed and the incidence has been greatly reduced.
Gaunty's comment was valid. Some people can't even smell it let alone be effected by it. Others I suggest may smell it, be uneffected, but be inclined to use it to their advantage.Then of course there are those that do have a reaction.
What is a company supposed to do with these people? Do they continue to employ people who cannot carry out their duties and who will most likely file a law suit against them? Or,shut shop maybe?
Bottums Up
Capt. Bligh,
I don't know what the payout was but am confident I know of whom you speak.
I am however supremely confident that the payout was no where near lost earnings. On top of that you have potential future earnings.
How do you compensate for a lost career and life style, let alone quality of life?
Give me my health and ability to work at what I want to do, any day!!
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt Claret ]</p>
I don't know what the payout was but am confident I know of whom you speak.
I am however supremely confident that the payout was no where near lost earnings. On top of that you have potential future earnings.
How do you compensate for a lost career and life style, let alone quality of life?
Give me my health and ability to work at what I want to do, any day!!
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt Claret ]</p>
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Yes Bligh, the said Female Captain who became too sick too work had to fight for recompence because her loss of licence insurance didn't adequately cover her lost earnings. Part of her 'settlement' with Ansett was rumoured to be that she never, ever speak on the issue. This woman is said to be so sick that she will never hold a licence again. Your post above reads like you are blaming the victim. Surely an worker whose health has been adversely affected by their employment is entitled to adequate compensation.
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Clearly a number of posters on this forum have no understanding of workers' entitlements law/workcover obligations or are maliciously motivated. From my dim legal past I can think of at least two other fertile grounds for complaint.. .Relevent parties at NJS would be well advised to 'winnie' their pants at this point. Engage the best, you'll need them.
I have a vision, and it's all green$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
ps. Is the $100 still green?
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</p>
I have a vision, and it's all green$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
ps. Is the $100 still green?
[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</p>
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ps. Gaunty, you would be described as the 'rainmaker employer', should you ever get the chance.. .That is, of course, recognising the constraints of the limitations on awards in such cases.
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Ms Jones,
Just curious, but how does
"we cannot confidently and absolutely guarantee that no cabin air contamination will occur while you are on board a 146 aircraft"
translate into an admission that aparticular aircraft is unsafe?
I could not "confidently and absolutely guarantee that no cabin air contamination will occur" on any aircraft (or any other vehicle for that matter) and I seriously doubt that any sensible person could. I do not know the circumstances involved here, but there seems to be a context that suggests hypersensitivity to particular events. If so, perhaps the consequences of knowingly placing an hypersensitive employee in that environment outweigh the consequences of terminating their services.
If my memory serves me correctly, the DC-9 had a significant history of cabin air contamination. If the B717 shares the same air conditioning/pressurisation design, would you expect QANTAS to absolutely guarantee that there would never ever be a cabin air quality event on a B717?
Just curious, but how does
"we cannot confidently and absolutely guarantee that no cabin air contamination will occur while you are on board a 146 aircraft"
translate into an admission that aparticular aircraft is unsafe?
I could not "confidently and absolutely guarantee that no cabin air contamination will occur" on any aircraft (or any other vehicle for that matter) and I seriously doubt that any sensible person could. I do not know the circumstances involved here, but there seems to be a context that suggests hypersensitivity to particular events. If so, perhaps the consequences of knowingly placing an hypersensitive employee in that environment outweigh the consequences of terminating their services.
If my memory serves me correctly, the DC-9 had a significant history of cabin air contamination. If the B717 shares the same air conditioning/pressurisation design, would you expect QANTAS to absolutely guarantee that there would never ever be a cabin air quality event on a B717?
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What about the Civil Aviation Regulations need to report defects and airworthiness requirements for air- clean of contamination?. Why shoot the messenger! The problem appears to have been around for years along with plenty of info on the extent of it & the apparent not insignificant number of those effected to various degrees & long history of procrastination & inability to solve the problem. All employees are entitled to a work environment that is safe & clear of contaminants.. . How can you admit contamination & then blame the employees!!
What has CASA/ATSB done & what will they do??
[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: woaaa ]</p>
What has CASA/ATSB done & what will they do??
[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: woaaa ]</p>
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Sprucegoose & Sly: I'm with both of you. The poor woman hasn't worked since, 'cos she can't, and her settlement was NOWHERE near what she lost in come, legal fees and loss of future earnings.. .So much for sympathy for your colleagues, Bligh, you are a bl***y disgrace to your profession.
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TheNightOwl. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Regards,
TheNightOwl. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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Woaaa,
NJS have been conducting an extensive examination of the air contamination problem for quite some time. As a major operator of this type of A/C it is obviously in their best interest to do so.
Currently all A/C which under go heavy maintanance have their engine seals replaced, whether they are faulty or not.A contamination schedule is placed in all A/C, the objective being to isolate the contamination source. Crews are REQUIRED to fill out this schedule should air contamination be detected. Once the source has been isolated the A/C is grounded untill the offending seal is replaced. This procedure has greatly reduced the incidence of air contamination and it is now a rare event.
What else can be done? Only three things spring to mind.. .1.RE-ENGINE THE FLEET.As yet the manufacturer of the 146 has not come up with a replacement engine.This would require extensive re-engineering of the existing A/C. The 146 is an ageing, out of production type so this is unlikely to happen.. .2. REPLACE THE ENTIRE FLEET.Firstly an A/C must be found which complies with the requirements of the client.NJS have done major research in this area. Unfortunately there are very few A/C in production which match the 146 in terms of seating capacity, weight, range and efficiency. The 717 immediately comes to mind but has been deemed unsuitable, I think due to it's high operating weight and lack of range. Other A/C have been examined. These include the RJX,probably the most suitable, however production has ceased due to the events of Sept 11th.And a Dornier and an Embraea prototype. Either of which MAY be compatible with the operation although untill they are up and running and take to the air, details will not be known. . .So in the short term, even if they could convince Qantas of the urgent need of fleet replacement,and come up with the necessary funding for training etc, they are stuck with the 146.. .3.SHUT SHOP.Obviously an undesirable choice.
It would appear to me that those people unfortunate enough to suffer from chemical intolerance, should not pursue a career in aviation.You will not find them within the mechanical or engineering fraternity because they cannot tolerate the job. Similarly people whom are squimish and faint at the sight of blood, do not become surgeons.The aviation industry has been predudiced against those with mild colour vision deficiencies since flying began. I could go on.
As for a 100% garrantee of an air pollutant free environment. It simply can't be done. Anywhere. Even hostpitals have outbreaks of Legionairs disease and Golden Staff. There is nowhere you can go or nothing you can do, that will give you absolute protection from the real world.
NJS have been conducting an extensive examination of the air contamination problem for quite some time. As a major operator of this type of A/C it is obviously in their best interest to do so.
Currently all A/C which under go heavy maintanance have their engine seals replaced, whether they are faulty or not.A contamination schedule is placed in all A/C, the objective being to isolate the contamination source. Crews are REQUIRED to fill out this schedule should air contamination be detected. Once the source has been isolated the A/C is grounded untill the offending seal is replaced. This procedure has greatly reduced the incidence of air contamination and it is now a rare event.
What else can be done? Only three things spring to mind.. .1.RE-ENGINE THE FLEET.As yet the manufacturer of the 146 has not come up with a replacement engine.This would require extensive re-engineering of the existing A/C. The 146 is an ageing, out of production type so this is unlikely to happen.. .2. REPLACE THE ENTIRE FLEET.Firstly an A/C must be found which complies with the requirements of the client.NJS have done major research in this area. Unfortunately there are very few A/C in production which match the 146 in terms of seating capacity, weight, range and efficiency. The 717 immediately comes to mind but has been deemed unsuitable, I think due to it's high operating weight and lack of range. Other A/C have been examined. These include the RJX,probably the most suitable, however production has ceased due to the events of Sept 11th.And a Dornier and an Embraea prototype. Either of which MAY be compatible with the operation although untill they are up and running and take to the air, details will not be known. . .So in the short term, even if they could convince Qantas of the urgent need of fleet replacement,and come up with the necessary funding for training etc, they are stuck with the 146.. .3.SHUT SHOP.Obviously an undesirable choice.
It would appear to me that those people unfortunate enough to suffer from chemical intolerance, should not pursue a career in aviation.You will not find them within the mechanical or engineering fraternity because they cannot tolerate the job. Similarly people whom are squimish and faint at the sight of blood, do not become surgeons.The aviation industry has been predudiced against those with mild colour vision deficiencies since flying began. I could go on.
As for a 100% garrantee of an air pollutant free environment. It simply can't be done. Anywhere. Even hostpitals have outbreaks of Legionairs disease and Golden Staff. There is nowhere you can go or nothing you can do, that will give you absolute protection from the real world.
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OL: Your argument about people with intolerances not pursuing a career in aircraft is peurile and demeans yourself more than your target.. .1. Legionaires Disease has a direct cause, and is easily corrected, indeed any so contaminated water-towers in this state are no longer tolerated and the owner may be prosecuted.. .2. Golden Staph. is, I believe, almost impossible to eradicate, but MAY be controlled by the administering of antibiotics.. .3. The subject Captain had not long completed her Command Endorsement, until which time her career had progressed without incident. The occurrence of the air contamination was what created her problem, on-going to this day, what has annoyed all who know her is the treatment meted out by her employer AND insurance companies. I do not profess to know all the details of her case, nor the settlement, but enough to have sympathy for a career in ruins through no fault of hers. People in similar circumstances are deserving of consideration and help, NOT being treated in the manner she was. I'm tempted to rant and rave about the disgraceful "running for cover" attitude displayed towards her but, on reflection, I don't believe it would change the attitudes of big business one iota.
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TheNightOwl. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Regards,
TheNightOwl. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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It is all very well suggesting that crew who are affected don’t follow a career in aviation. What do you propose for the paying passengers who are like wise adversely affected.. .I would like to see you recommend to a director of a major company that he find another career path, as the method of transport his company uses is causing him to be put at risk
Best thing to do is push them in a heap with Ansett WA’s clapped out specimens and drop a match in the lot. It may be cheaper than the impending law suits.
Best thing to do is push them in a heap with Ansett WA’s clapped out specimens and drop a match in the lot. It may be cheaper than the impending law suits.
Bottums Up
CTS
As I understand it, Woodside won't allow their personnel to fly on the 146 because of the doubts about its fume problem.
In three years of operating the machine and a further three years paxing, I have yet to experience a fumes occurrence.
I think that unfortunately some of us, humans that is, have a lower tolerance for various petrochemicals and are affected differently.
I have heard numerous engineers and pilots make comments to the effect that various different aircraft suffer with similar, or worse, fumes problems.
As I understand it, Woodside won't allow their personnel to fly on the 146 because of the doubts about its fume problem.
In three years of operating the machine and a further three years paxing, I have yet to experience a fumes occurrence.
I think that unfortunately some of us, humans that is, have a lower tolerance for various petrochemicals and are affected differently.
I have heard numerous engineers and pilots make comments to the effect that various different aircraft suffer with similar, or worse, fumes problems.
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Ansett: Australian Senate Inquiry 2 Nov, 1999. ." the source of the odours has been identified as predominantly Mobil jet oil 2 leaking past oil seals in the engines and/or auxiliary power unit into the air conditioning system..."
Australian Senate report: . ." The committee received evidence that Ansett has.... recorded reported fume occurrences of 1 per 131 flights."
Australian Senate report: . ." The committee received evidence that Ansett has.... recorded reported fume occurrences of 1 per 131 flights."
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Overall the 146 still does and will continue to give a good service and return for NJS and QF. It's the figure at the bottom that counts 'Profit'. Goose you where invited to join management in Adelaide but didn't have the balls to turn up. So it as a flap snafu eh, you didn't take out those runway lights at Cairns ? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
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Yes Bligh....your incessant divergance to matters irrelevant but non the less associated with me clearly divulges your interest in slandering me as sport. Though you know me you quite obviously don't KNOW me at all and it shows in the depth of the stupidity of your comments. Do you really think I had no balls in turning down the offer to move to ADL? Do you know anything at all? Probably not. Let me ask you this much. Suppose you were offered the opportunity to trek up Mt. Everest or take a rocket ship to Mars, be the first human to go there. If you get there you get all the glory, and who doesn't occasionally want their fifteen minutes of fame? The risk is this, either the trek will take place in the period of maximum avalanche probability or the rocket has enough fuel to get to Mars and back but only if there is not a single error in planning and tracking. The risk in either case is you die and lose everything you currently have which in your case could be a wife and kids and friends. The prize is fifteen minutes of glory. Is it an acceptable risk? The driving force in my life used to be aviation, the career chase so many of us are a slave to. These days aviation is to me a great way to earn a living but it isn't what drives me on from day to day. I get that from the need to do something that scares the living hell out me at least twice a week and I get that through my chosen leisure activity, on a mountain bike. But for there to be any value in that experience I have to be able to survive the event. Thats what I call acceptable risk. If I do my part right I will succeed and be envigorated for another day. I digress however.
Instead imagine this. The CEO of your company invites you down to the office for tea and bikkies. The offer is a management position for which you have no prior experience, no substantial building block of experience or any immediate interest. The terms of the "offer", a term I use loosely because in the corporate world there are very seldom offer's but always expectations, don't contain a job description, don't contain a salary figure or at best one that changed every time the matter was raised on the phone, never contained a contract in writting to examine but which was promised day after day to be formalised and sent in the overnight mail. It never came. The offer involved giving up flying for the most part and I love my flying. The 40 or so hours a month that a management pilot was supposed to get equated to about 40 hours every six months when I did my own asking around. This offer also required my wife to give up her job which she loved and move from a new house we had just started to build to live in a city we didn't have any desire to live in. All this and about three weeks to pack up and make the move. Yeah, right. The "offer" was poorly planned, poorly executed and in the end a terrible waste of goodwill. I could clearly see that the result of the move would have been to make me a highly paid paper pushing office boy. Hey, you gotta start somewhere I know but they weren't being transparent enough in that respect and we all knew that. I took advice from several people in the management circles who all said I would be good in the job but did I really know what I was getting myself into. Well yes I believe I did after a week or so of reflection. Was it an acceptable risk to stop flying, to get myself cornered in a position with no job description or contract in writting. To make the decision for my wife that she WOULD give up her job and she WOULD move to ADL whether she wanted to or not? What would the prize be if it all paid off? A good bloke(?)making inroads into the quagmire of beaurocratic military management? The loss could have been my wife, my happy sanity, and my friends . I didn't see this as an acceptable risk. In hindsight I think it took balls to say no. Certaintly looking at the failures of those that flocked down there afterwards in search of the "title" and the power one can see the need to plan and choose your managers wisely. I never have believed burning a person out or assuming up front that someone will have a "use by" date" after a very short time is good management of your human resourses. I didn't think I would have fit in too well and thus I chose not to go. I made the right decision. We remained good loyal employee's after that as well in spite of the abuse my wife received for not taking the "offer". Thats not the only "golden" opportunity I have passed up in life either Bligh. I put the well being of family and lifestyle ahead of my own aspirations again a few years later. It is really quite an uplifting experience to follow the road less travelled in this business and put others interests ahead of your own. When it got so that I no longer felt happy in the NJS camp Bligh, I voted with my feet. At least I had the choice, perhaps you never will pardna.
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: sprucegoose ]</p>
Instead imagine this. The CEO of your company invites you down to the office for tea and bikkies. The offer is a management position for which you have no prior experience, no substantial building block of experience or any immediate interest. The terms of the "offer", a term I use loosely because in the corporate world there are very seldom offer's but always expectations, don't contain a job description, don't contain a salary figure or at best one that changed every time the matter was raised on the phone, never contained a contract in writting to examine but which was promised day after day to be formalised and sent in the overnight mail. It never came. The offer involved giving up flying for the most part and I love my flying. The 40 or so hours a month that a management pilot was supposed to get equated to about 40 hours every six months when I did my own asking around. This offer also required my wife to give up her job which she loved and move from a new house we had just started to build to live in a city we didn't have any desire to live in. All this and about three weeks to pack up and make the move. Yeah, right. The "offer" was poorly planned, poorly executed and in the end a terrible waste of goodwill. I could clearly see that the result of the move would have been to make me a highly paid paper pushing office boy. Hey, you gotta start somewhere I know but they weren't being transparent enough in that respect and we all knew that. I took advice from several people in the management circles who all said I would be good in the job but did I really know what I was getting myself into. Well yes I believe I did after a week or so of reflection. Was it an acceptable risk to stop flying, to get myself cornered in a position with no job description or contract in writting. To make the decision for my wife that she WOULD give up her job and she WOULD move to ADL whether she wanted to or not? What would the prize be if it all paid off? A good bloke(?)making inroads into the quagmire of beaurocratic military management? The loss could have been my wife, my happy sanity, and my friends . I didn't see this as an acceptable risk. In hindsight I think it took balls to say no. Certaintly looking at the failures of those that flocked down there afterwards in search of the "title" and the power one can see the need to plan and choose your managers wisely. I never have believed burning a person out or assuming up front that someone will have a "use by" date" after a very short time is good management of your human resourses. I didn't think I would have fit in too well and thus I chose not to go. I made the right decision. We remained good loyal employee's after that as well in spite of the abuse my wife received for not taking the "offer". Thats not the only "golden" opportunity I have passed up in life either Bligh. I put the well being of family and lifestyle ahead of my own aspirations again a few years later. It is really quite an uplifting experience to follow the road less travelled in this business and put others interests ahead of your own. When it got so that I no longer felt happy in the NJS camp Bligh, I voted with my feet. At least I had the choice, perhaps you never will pardna.
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: sprucegoose ]</p>
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CLARET,. .I would never accuse you of being human!!!!
SPRUCY,. .Chill,you dont have to fly with Claret anymore!!!!! <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
SPRUCY,. .Chill,you dont have to fly with Claret anymore!!!!! <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">