Going where Angels fear to tread.
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Mostly a lurker around these parts but I do have a suggestion...
Perhaps the forum should be renamed Dumbunda
Then all and sundry can feel free to post in any quality of spelling/grammar that ones skills allow for - indeed it could even be made a requirement to avoid using correct English - at risk of being sin binned.
Any takers ?
Perhaps the forum should be renamed Dumbunda
Then all and sundry can feel free to post in any quality of spelling/grammar that ones skills allow for - indeed it could even be made a requirement to avoid using correct English - at risk of being sin binned.
Any takers ?
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Woomera,
Thank you for this thread. I have always been amazed at the poor skills of pilots in their use of the written word. ‘Written Expression’ was an important part of the English syllabus when I was at school (many years ago).
Boomerang
I was pleased to read your last post, especially in the correct use of the pronoun, ‘my’, preceding the gerund, ‘being’, in ‘stranger things have occurred in life than my being mistaken’. The Australian vernacular almost invariably substitutes ‘me’ for ‘my’.
Regarding ‘licence’ and ‘license’, I agree. ‘Licence’ is a noun, and ‘license’ is a transitive verb – unless you are an American. ‘Affect’ and ‘effect’ are not as clearly labelled as verb and noun because of the variety of meanings each word has. ‘Affect’ is always a transitive verb. ‘Effect’ is usually a noun (as in cause and effect, to take effect, etc) but can be a transitive verb meaning bring about or accomplish (as in to effect a change). The Oxford Dictionary is a good reference.
The Oxford Dictionary also recognises both ‘inquire’ and ‘enquire’ as valid spellings. I am not aware of the Macquarie Dictionary’s position on this. I must buy one someday, if only as a reference for crosswords!
Australian practice is to use ‘-ise’ instead of ‘-ize’ in verbs with that ending. Similarly, ‘program’ has replaced the French ‘programme’ in Australian English.
A good, easily accessible reference to the use and abuse of the English language is www.dictionary.com. This is an American site, and so be aware that US English is not Australian English.
By the way, for those who use Microsoft Word, the language it uses for its spell-checker can be changed to whichever form of English you use, e.g., Australian, Canadian, US, etc. Just look under the Tools menu. I’m not familiar with WordPerfect and other programs, but I expect they have a variety of dictionaries as well.
A word of advice for those who rely on spell-checkers: they will usually not detect and correct instances where the chosen word is phonetically the same as another, e.g., 'read' and 'reed'.
Pseudonym
The reason 'phonetic' is not 'fonetic' is because its root is the Ancient Greek 'phonos'. Many of our words have their roots in Ancient Greek and Latin.
So endeth the lesson.
Thank you for this thread. I have always been amazed at the poor skills of pilots in their use of the written word. ‘Written Expression’ was an important part of the English syllabus when I was at school (many years ago).
Boomerang
I was pleased to read your last post, especially in the correct use of the pronoun, ‘my’, preceding the gerund, ‘being’, in ‘stranger things have occurred in life than my being mistaken’. The Australian vernacular almost invariably substitutes ‘me’ for ‘my’.
Regarding ‘licence’ and ‘license’, I agree. ‘Licence’ is a noun, and ‘license’ is a transitive verb – unless you are an American. ‘Affect’ and ‘effect’ are not as clearly labelled as verb and noun because of the variety of meanings each word has. ‘Affect’ is always a transitive verb. ‘Effect’ is usually a noun (as in cause and effect, to take effect, etc) but can be a transitive verb meaning bring about or accomplish (as in to effect a change). The Oxford Dictionary is a good reference.
The Oxford Dictionary also recognises both ‘inquire’ and ‘enquire’ as valid spellings. I am not aware of the Macquarie Dictionary’s position on this. I must buy one someday, if only as a reference for crosswords!
Australian practice is to use ‘-ise’ instead of ‘-ize’ in verbs with that ending. Similarly, ‘program’ has replaced the French ‘programme’ in Australian English.
A good, easily accessible reference to the use and abuse of the English language is www.dictionary.com. This is an American site, and so be aware that US English is not Australian English.
By the way, for those who use Microsoft Word, the language it uses for its spell-checker can be changed to whichever form of English you use, e.g., Australian, Canadian, US, etc. Just look under the Tools menu. I’m not familiar with WordPerfect and other programs, but I expect they have a variety of dictionaries as well.
A word of advice for those who rely on spell-checkers: they will usually not detect and correct instances where the chosen word is phonetically the same as another, e.g., 'read' and 'reed'.
Pseudonym
The reason 'phonetic' is not 'fonetic' is because its root is the Ancient Greek 'phonos'. Many of our words have their roots in Ancient Greek and Latin.
So endeth the lesson.
Just Binos
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Zoon5:
Boomerang?????? Actually, I quite like it, but I'm not changing my name again.
Thank you anyway, for confirmation of my beliefs, point acknowledged for the alternative meaning of effect. Interesting to note your use of gerund. Without looking it up I thought gerund was simply a verb, but you use it in the sense of what the good nuns and the perverted Christian Brothers taught me to call a verbal noun.
Now let's see; realise, recognise, demonise, analyse; Hmm, you may be right there. Though sympathise doesn't look all that flash, and hypothesise looks awful.
Boomerang?????? Actually, I quite like it, but I'm not changing my name again.
Thank you anyway, for confirmation of my beliefs, point acknowledged for the alternative meaning of effect. Interesting to note your use of gerund. Without looking it up I thought gerund was simply a verb, but you use it in the sense of what the good nuns and the perverted Christian Brothers taught me to call a verbal noun.
Now let's see; realise, recognise, demonise, analyse; Hmm, you may be right there. Though sympathise doesn't look all that flash, and hypothesise looks awful.
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Wiley,
Are you requesting advice, that is, do you want someone to advise you? 'Advice' is the noun and 'advise' the verb. 'Practice' and 'practise' are similar. Of course English doesn't always follow simple rules, e.g., 'notice' can be either a noun or a verb. Has that confused you?
Are you requesting advice, that is, do you want someone to advise you? 'Advice' is the noun and 'advise' the verb. 'Practice' and 'practise' are similar. Of course English doesn't always follow simple rules, e.g., 'notice' can be either a noun or a verb. Has that confused you?
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Not confused, Zoon. Just a touch techy after seeing yet another "...please advice me..." on Pprune. (Or was it "... take my advise..."?
I'm picking up my Spelling/Grammar Police uniform tomorrow morning.
I'm picking up my Spelling/Grammar Police uniform tomorrow morning.
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Wiley has ways of making you orl spel proper and when he gets his new uniform wach owt 
Lets have some fun and we can all learn something at the same time.
Heck it might just help some of us get THAT interview
Lets have some fun and we can all learn something at the same time.
Heck it might just help some of us get THAT interview
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So who needs to be able to spell really? Correct spelling and grammar isn't really important, just so long as we get the message we're trying to impart across… right?
Below is an oldie but a goodie on that very subject (or should that be 'subjekt')?
Below is an oldie but a goodie on that very subject (or should that be 'subjekt')?
...Latest from the European Union
I am informed that the European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish."
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favor of the "k".
This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replased with the "f'. This will make words like "fotograf' 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.
By the 4th year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "V'.
During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve wil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
ZE DREM VIL FINALl KUM TRU!! And zen ve vil take over ze vorld!!
I am informed that the European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish."
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favor of the "k".
This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replased with the "f'. This will make words like "fotograf' 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.
By the 4th year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "V'.
During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve wil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
ZE DREM VIL FINALl KUM TRU!! And zen ve vil take over ze vorld!!
Just Binos
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Well, speaking of Oldies but goldies.....
OWED TO THE SPELLING CHECKER
I have a spelling chequer, it game wit my PC;
It plane lee marques four my revue miss steaks aye can knot sea.
Eye ran this pome threw it, yore shore reel glad two no;
Its vary polished in its weigh, my chequer tolled me sew.
A chequer is a bless sing, it freeze yew lodes of thyme;
It helps me rite awl stiles two reed and aides me when aye rime.
Each frays come posed up on my screen eye trussed too bee a joule;
The chequer poured o’er every word to cheque sum spelling rule.
Be fore a veiling checkers, hour spelling mite decline;
And if where lacks or have a laps wee wood bee maid to wine.
Butt now bee cause my spelling is checked with such grate flare,
Their are know faults with inn my cite, of nun eye am a wear.
Now spelling does knot phase me, it does knot bring a tier;
My pay purrs awl due glad den with wrapped words fare as hear.
To rite with care is quite a feet of witch won should be proud;
And wee mussed dew the best wee can, sew floors are knot aloud.
Sow ewe can sea why aye do prays such soft where four pea seas,
And why aye brake in two averse by righting want too pleas
OWED TO THE SPELLING CHECKER
I have a spelling chequer, it game wit my PC;
It plane lee marques four my revue miss steaks aye can knot sea.
Eye ran this pome threw it, yore shore reel glad two no;
Its vary polished in its weigh, my chequer tolled me sew.
A chequer is a bless sing, it freeze yew lodes of thyme;
It helps me rite awl stiles two reed and aides me when aye rime.
Each frays come posed up on my screen eye trussed too bee a joule;
The chequer poured o’er every word to cheque sum spelling rule.
Be fore a veiling checkers, hour spelling mite decline;
And if where lacks or have a laps wee wood bee maid to wine.
Butt now bee cause my spelling is checked with such grate flare,
Their are know faults with inn my cite, of nun eye am a wear.
Now spelling does knot phase me, it does knot bring a tier;
My pay purrs awl due glad den with wrapped words fare as hear.
To rite with care is quite a feet of witch won should be proud;
And wee mussed dew the best wee can, sew floors are knot aloud.
Sow ewe can sea why aye do prays such soft where four pea seas,
And why aye brake in two averse by righting want too pleas
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Woomera,
I'm with your original post. I too would be reluctant to give my $50M+ aeroplane to somebody to fly, no matter how good a pilot he is, if he has difficulty stringing a couple of words together. We see a lot of contributions from very inarticulate contributors.
We don't expect, nor are looking for literary genius, but the standard of many contributors makes even a pass in Grade 8 English appear unattainable for many.
A little thought, even using 'Word' or a similar programme to tidy up a post before posting would make it a lot easier on all of us.
Of course, obvious typographical errors can be understood and accepted.
I'm with your original post. I too would be reluctant to give my $50M+ aeroplane to somebody to fly, no matter how good a pilot he is, if he has difficulty stringing a couple of words together. We see a lot of contributions from very inarticulate contributors.
We don't expect, nor are looking for literary genius, but the standard of many contributors makes even a pass in Grade 8 English appear unattainable for many.
A little thought, even using 'Word' or a similar programme to tidy up a post before posting would make it a lot easier on all of us.
Of course, obvious typographical errors can be understood and accepted.
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Woomera: Whilst fundamentally & whole heartedly in agreement with your observations regarding the standard of the written word displayed in these forums, I nevertheless also find it rather ironic when somebody with obvious good intentions purports to give somebody else an unsolicited English lesson with somewhat less than the desired & demonstrated ability required thereof !
To wit: "this airline or thats"
Don't forget the apostrophe in that's & it's
"License" (US connotation).....licence
"Neither" Isn't the rule i before e except after c still valid ?
Not a bad effort though Woomera & I agree with your hypothesis that we indeed really are judged by our written & verbal communicative skills which seem to have been relegated to the back burner by lazy teachers & over reliance on software spell checkers. Keep up the good work though LOL LOL
To wit: "this airline or thats"
Don't forget the apostrophe in that's & it's
"License" (US connotation).....licence
"Neither" Isn't the rule i before e except after c still valid ?
Not a bad effort though Woomera & I agree with your hypothesis that we indeed really are judged by our written & verbal communicative skills which seem to have been relegated to the back burner by lazy teachers & over reliance on software spell checkers. Keep up the good work though LOL LOL
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Thanks all for your contributions AND a big elephant stamp with special gold stars for Wiley and Binos contributions. 
I had forgotten about ZE DREM and laughed as hard again as I did then. One must once again get out Peter Sellers classic "Dr Strangelove" from the video store. Dammit I'll BUY it this time.
Binos'(?) pome about the recalcitrant spell chequer reveals yet another of the Great Mysteries Of Life, in that you have to be able to spell before you can use a dictionary or spell checker to check your spelling.??
I had forgotten about ZE DREM and laughed as hard again as I did then. One must once again get out Peter Sellers classic "Dr Strangelove" from the video store.
Dammit I'll BUY it this time. Binos'(?) pome about the recalcitrant spell chequer reveals yet another of the Great Mysteries Of Life, in that you have to be able to spell before you can use a dictionary or spell checker to check your spelling.??
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Great thread, Woomera.
My pet peeve, apart from all the others mentioned, is the misuse of "less" when "fewer" is appropriate.
You might find this an interesting read.
Cheers
AA
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Ausatco ]
My pet peeve, apart from all the others mentioned, is the misuse of "less" when "fewer" is appropriate.
You might find this an interesting read.
Cheers
AA
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Ausatco ]
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shocka
Oh dear, one should tread extremely warily when taking the high ground in matters English.
Neither is actually correct, being one of those traps of which English is full.
It is a contraction of the words 'not either' thus 'neither' the i before e rule does not apply in this case.
The application of the c (Eng) or s(US) in the words like licens/ce is now fairly arbitrary in common usage and the better dictionaries offer both, with but subtle if any variations.
Likewise as mentioned here before words such as programme/program. I prefer the use of programme in the organisational sense, but would use program in computer use.
I think you are being unfair suggesting Woomera was setting up him/herself as any expert or offering unsolicited English lessons, but simply making and observation and
edited for obvious spelling mistakes , I remain open to correction on grammar and syntax
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
Oh dear, one should tread extremely warily when taking the high ground in matters English.
Neither is actually correct, being one of those traps of which English is full.
It is a contraction of the words 'not either' thus 'neither' the i before e rule does not apply in this case.
The application of the c (Eng) or s(US) in the words like licens/ce is now fairly arbitrary in common usage and the better dictionaries offer both, with but subtle if any variations.
Likewise as mentioned here before words such as programme/program. I prefer the use of programme in the organisational sense, but would use program in computer use.
I think you are being unfair suggesting Woomera was setting up him/herself as any expert or offering unsolicited English lessons, but simply making and observation and
Sits back and waits for the REAL experts to critique my grammar, syntax and spelling.
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]