It's Happening - Aussie Troops to fight Terrorism
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My opinion is the same as Achilles...led by the nose.
We are committing our troops to a fight that essentially against a intangible force - terrorism. THe parallels drawn against conflicts like WW2 and WW1 are ridiculous and I would consider all to think of the results of the Americans last emotive decision to commit troops to a war against communism and the longterm negative impact that had on so many lives.
The purpose of the ADF is to defend Australia and the cost of the deployment would be better spent in gearing up for the possibility of that happening.
Frankly, Australia has no enemies dedicated to the demise of our way of life. My reasoning on that is because we generally keep our noses, beliefs and political ideals to ourselves. One thing the American government, politions and corperations do not do.
Anyone who considers the Taliban or Afgans to be a pushover like Saddam, are going to be unpleasantly suprised. Those people are tough. They already have defeated one major nuclear power and are fully prepared to lay each one of their lives on the line for a slice of paradise. This will be an ugly and bitter gerrilla style warfare which the Afgans are well versed in. We all would be better informed if we took the time to study the torrid history of these people.
Lets pray our guys make it home safe. Gods blessing on them all.
We are committing our troops to a fight that essentially against a intangible force - terrorism. THe parallels drawn against conflicts like WW2 and WW1 are ridiculous and I would consider all to think of the results of the Americans last emotive decision to commit troops to a war against communism and the longterm negative impact that had on so many lives.
The purpose of the ADF is to defend Australia and the cost of the deployment would be better spent in gearing up for the possibility of that happening.
Frankly, Australia has no enemies dedicated to the demise of our way of life. My reasoning on that is because we generally keep our noses, beliefs and political ideals to ourselves. One thing the American government, politions and corperations do not do.
Anyone who considers the Taliban or Afgans to be a pushover like Saddam, are going to be unpleasantly suprised. Those people are tough. They already have defeated one major nuclear power and are fully prepared to lay each one of their lives on the line for a slice of paradise. This will be an ugly and bitter gerrilla style warfare which the Afgans are well versed in. We all would be better informed if we took the time to study the torrid history of these people.
Lets pray our guys make it home safe. Gods blessing on them all.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1550366.stm
This makes more sense of the US agenda than anything reported on CNN.
This makes more sense of the US agenda than anything reported on CNN.
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Hi all,
Interesting thread. Now for my observations..
I am currently living in the middle east and reactions to 11 Sep are wide ranging. The educated are just as shocked at what happening and are not too impressed with OBL. On the other side of the fence you have the uneducated who beleive that the current rulers in Afganistan are "good" people and in a survey in Pakistan 48% of people polled thought that OBL was not responsible for 11 sep but a certain country near Egypt and Jordan did the act - honestly that was in the paper and that is what the western world is up against.
Indonesia has always been watched but has a lot of internal problems to worry about instead of projecting their power in our direction.
Having been in the ADF before this life i can say i would rather serve with people who were motivated and volunteered instead of someone forced to be there to make up the numbers so no thanks to conscription. Just use the money to update hardware and conditions of service.(maybe i would still be in now if ANY government did the above)
The ADF should have the capability for operations outside OZ - just think what may still be going on in east timor if we had decided not to send anyone.
To the ADF personnel going overseas - Good Luck and most of all come back in one piece.
thank you that is all
Interesting thread. Now for my observations..
I am currently living in the middle east and reactions to 11 Sep are wide ranging. The educated are just as shocked at what happening and are not too impressed with OBL. On the other side of the fence you have the uneducated who beleive that the current rulers in Afganistan are "good" people and in a survey in Pakistan 48% of people polled thought that OBL was not responsible for 11 sep but a certain country near Egypt and Jordan did the act - honestly that was in the paper and that is what the western world is up against.
Indonesia has always been watched but has a lot of internal problems to worry about instead of projecting their power in our direction.
Having been in the ADF before this life i can say i would rather serve with people who were motivated and volunteered instead of someone forced to be there to make up the numbers so no thanks to conscription. Just use the money to update hardware and conditions of service.(maybe i would still be in now if ANY government did the above)
The ADF should have the capability for operations outside OZ - just think what may still be going on in east timor if we had decided not to send anyone.
To the ADF personnel going overseas - Good Luck and most of all come back in one piece.
thank you that is all
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It is wonderful to think you all live in a country that accepts people debating for three pages on a topic that very few of them have any idea about. AUSTRALIA is truely wonderful.
Good Luck to all members of the ADF and their families at home. Be proud of your endevours, as the whole country's thoughts and best wishes are with you.
WILEY, I can inform you that the crews of the B707's which deployed to the Middle East during the Gulf War conflicts received their Australian Service Medal for bravery. Would you fly in an aircraft that should have been grounded at least ten years ago. It is a credit to the squadron that they have kept them flying and may once again see service in an overseas conflict.
[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: Hangar Ops ]
Good Luck to all members of the ADF and their families at home. Be proud of your endevours, as the whole country's thoughts and best wishes are with you.
WILEY, I can inform you that the crews of the B707's which deployed to the Middle East during the Gulf War conflicts received their Australian Service Medal for bravery. Would you fly in an aircraft that should have been grounded at least ten years ago. It is a credit to the squadron that they have kept them flying and may once again see service in an overseas conflict.
[ 20 October 2001: Message edited by: Hangar Ops ]
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I am thankful that the Americans never shared Helibiggles sentiments about Australia at the end of the Second World War.
We may have all been wearing kimonos and have a staple diet of sushi and bean curd today had that been the case.
The same old story, if it's not in your own backyard it'll be OK Mate! Well history has shown that the aussies have fought many battles outside their own back yard because it is UN-AUSTRALIAN not to help your mates and one of these days it WILL be our backyard and we will need the help of those same mates - again!
Keep the faith:]
We may have all been wearing kimonos and have a staple diet of sushi and bean curd today had that been the case.
The same old story, if it's not in your own backyard it'll be OK Mate! Well history has shown that the aussies have fought many battles outside their own back yard because it is UN-AUSTRALIAN not to help your mates and one of these days it WILL be our backyard and we will need the help of those same mates - again!
Keep the faith:]
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bulldog69, I suspect you’re right in saying that conscription will never be re-introduced in Australia, (at least in the foreseeable future). However, in answer to your question, ”Why is conscription needed?”, I thought I made it clear in my earlier post. The military doesn’t want it. As you say, they can do a far better job with highly trained volunteers.
It’s the country as a whole that needs some form of universal National Service, not necessarily military, and needs it badly. Thanks to large scale immigration over the last sixty years, (legal and illegal), we have become quite possibly the most diverse nation on earth, to the point where an increasingly large number of our citizens live in communities little short of ethnic ghettos. Many of the residents in these outer suburban Australian communities continue to live very much as they did in the country of their birth and feel little to no allegiance to Australia. (Our own fault, because our politicians, in search of votes, have cheapened Australian citizenship by making it ridiculously easy to obtain.)
We need some form of melting pot to make all parts of the community mix and become Australian, (whatever that means). Otherwise, we’re going to end up like another Balkans – a series of different ethnic groupings maintaining the rage and hatreds of our homelands rather than melding into a nation of Australians from different ethnic backgrounds who feel proud and a part of their new country.
I believe some form of National Service, not necessarily military, might go a long way towards achieving this aim. It’s a pity that the same term, (‘National Service’), was used in the lottery style conscription of the 60’s that provided cannon fodder for an unpopular overseas war, because it brings out knee jerk reactions at the mention of the name. So maybe it needs a new name, but call it what you will, we need it, and we need it badly.
I know it would cost a fortune. However, I suspect that in the short term, half the costs would be met by the reduced Dole payments as ‘n’ thousand young men (and women) were put to work doing something constructive, (to say nothing of learning some skills), rather than strolling down to the CES to pick up their cheques once a fortnight. In the long term, the country would gain enormously in the citizens such a scheme would produce.
It’s the country as a whole that needs some form of universal National Service, not necessarily military, and needs it badly. Thanks to large scale immigration over the last sixty years, (legal and illegal), we have become quite possibly the most diverse nation on earth, to the point where an increasingly large number of our citizens live in communities little short of ethnic ghettos. Many of the residents in these outer suburban Australian communities continue to live very much as they did in the country of their birth and feel little to no allegiance to Australia. (Our own fault, because our politicians, in search of votes, have cheapened Australian citizenship by making it ridiculously easy to obtain.)
We need some form of melting pot to make all parts of the community mix and become Australian, (whatever that means). Otherwise, we’re going to end up like another Balkans – a series of different ethnic groupings maintaining the rage and hatreds of our homelands rather than melding into a nation of Australians from different ethnic backgrounds who feel proud and a part of their new country.
I believe some form of National Service, not necessarily military, might go a long way towards achieving this aim. It’s a pity that the same term, (‘National Service’), was used in the lottery style conscription of the 60’s that provided cannon fodder for an unpopular overseas war, because it brings out knee jerk reactions at the mention of the name. So maybe it needs a new name, but call it what you will, we need it, and we need it badly.
I know it would cost a fortune. However, I suspect that in the short term, half the costs would be met by the reduced Dole payments as ‘n’ thousand young men (and women) were put to work doing something constructive, (to say nothing of learning some skills), rather than strolling down to the CES to pick up their cheques once a fortnight. In the long term, the country would gain enormously in the citizens such a scheme would produce.
Daytrader,
The publicity-seeking Senator Sport-Destroyer is a minor abberration in the seamless robe of Australian politics, and hopefully one which will be removed at the forthcoming general election. She has nothing to contribute to this issue. As far as I have seen she has little of substance to contribute to most issues. Senator Bob Brown almost equals her for insignificance, but we will leave the worthy "Green" senator (in every sense of the word) for another time.
On a more general note:-
There is no debate required. Although I despise John Howard with a passion, he has taken a decision and most Australians (myself included) support him in it.
If it helps you to understand my position on this matter, like several others who have posted in this thread I too registered for National Service under the 1968 act, and still have both my "Notice of Registration" and my "Notice of Indefinite Deferment" card...souvenirs of the Vietnam war era.
They are a constant reminder that freedom has a cost, and lies are the currency with which truth is bought and sold. I value every freedom living in Australia gives me and I place my full support in those who are sent to defend it.
Whether you like it or not, every human being on the face of this planet is now under direct threat by terrorism. We either defend ourselves...and others of like mind...or we submit to terror. I see it as a matter of where you wish to make your stand...far better to do it elsewhere than your own country because by then it may be too late!
Those who seek to impose their will on others through perverted interpretations of religiously-inspired texts seek only power for themselves. This is totalitarianism and few civilised nations will accept it. Australia certainly will not, nor will the United Kingdom, nor the United States.
For our servicemen and women in the forthcoming conflict I wish them good fortune, good hunting, and the confidence to carry out their assigned tasks secure in the knowledge that the overwhelming majority of Australians support them. (Those who do not may indeed tread perilously close to the realms of treason.)
Come home safely and with glory! You carry with you the proud tradition of the ANZACS. We know you will not let us down. We are damned proud of you! Anyone who isn't does not deserve to live in this country...and is welcome to leave it on the first available flight.
The publicity-seeking Senator Sport-Destroyer is a minor abberration in the seamless robe of Australian politics, and hopefully one which will be removed at the forthcoming general election. She has nothing to contribute to this issue. As far as I have seen she has little of substance to contribute to most issues. Senator Bob Brown almost equals her for insignificance, but we will leave the worthy "Green" senator (in every sense of the word) for another time.
On a more general note:-
There is no debate required. Although I despise John Howard with a passion, he has taken a decision and most Australians (myself included) support him in it.
If it helps you to understand my position on this matter, like several others who have posted in this thread I too registered for National Service under the 1968 act, and still have both my "Notice of Registration" and my "Notice of Indefinite Deferment" card...souvenirs of the Vietnam war era.
They are a constant reminder that freedom has a cost, and lies are the currency with which truth is bought and sold. I value every freedom living in Australia gives me and I place my full support in those who are sent to defend it.
Whether you like it or not, every human being on the face of this planet is now under direct threat by terrorism. We either defend ourselves...and others of like mind...or we submit to terror. I see it as a matter of where you wish to make your stand...far better to do it elsewhere than your own country because by then it may be too late!
Those who seek to impose their will on others through perverted interpretations of religiously-inspired texts seek only power for themselves. This is totalitarianism and few civilised nations will accept it. Australia certainly will not, nor will the United Kingdom, nor the United States.
For our servicemen and women in the forthcoming conflict I wish them good fortune, good hunting, and the confidence to carry out their assigned tasks secure in the knowledge that the overwhelming majority of Australians support them. (Those who do not may indeed tread perilously close to the realms of treason.)
Come home safely and with glory! You carry with you the proud tradition of the ANZACS. We know you will not let us down. We are damned proud of you! Anyone who isn't does not deserve to live in this country...and is welcome to leave it on the first available flight.
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CriticalMass,
the problem with vacuous rhetoric, flippancy and hyperbole is that whilst they all look good on paper, and can generate a reaction, they dont stand up to analysis.
The fact is that Oz politics is not homogenous or seamless, but pluralist (thats the whole idea. ie no one party state). NSD is an elected senator and leader of the Australian Democrats. To disregard the influence and contribution of independents and smaller parties, especially in the senate context, is a gross misrepresentation of Oz political process. In any event she is hardly a minor aberration.
Further, to suggest that an independent opinion in such a democracy is somehow treason would be laughable if it were not so offensive.
The conscription angle is a furphy as it is entirely irrelevant to modern warfare and the grave situation at hand.
If it helps you to understand my position on this matter, I have a strong personal connection to the ADF, although I am not nor have I ever been a serving member. My support and empathy for all ADF personnel is absolute and unconditional.
I make no excuses and would have no mercy for bin Laden. The case against him is compelling. His crimes are atrocious.
However I dont support this particular expedient political decision nor the process used by Howard (on the eve of a federal election). As Prime Minister he is not obliged to debate this issue, however without adequate debate the spirit of democracy (IMHO)is subverted.
Howard gave Bush carte blanche to do what he wishes with Oz personnel right from the word go. The US military behemoth is in no way dependant on our military contribution to achieve US mission objectives.
We are one of only three countries worldwide besides the US who have committed troops. Presumably that puts us toward the top of the terror target list.
We have 200 million moslems to our immediate north and plummeting relations b/w Canberra and Jakarta. Clearly, despite Bush's exhortations that this war is not against islam, many moslems around the globe do not share this view.
At the end of the day bin Laden was funded, trained and armed in significant part by the US in order to meet US foreign policy objectives in Afganistan.
His campaign of terror is reactive to his perception (justified or not) of US foreign policy as pervasive and unjust.
The burden of responsibility to sort this out belongs elsewhere.
the problem with vacuous rhetoric, flippancy and hyperbole is that whilst they all look good on paper, and can generate a reaction, they dont stand up to analysis.
The publicity-seeking Senator Sport-Destroyer is a minor abberration in the seamless robe of Australian politics...She has nothing to contribute to this issue. As far as I have seen she has little of substance to contribute to most issues.
Further, to suggest that an independent opinion in such a democracy is somehow treason would be laughable if it were not so offensive.
The conscription angle is a furphy as it is entirely irrelevant to modern warfare and the grave situation at hand.
If it helps you to understand my position on this matter, I have a strong personal connection to the ADF, although I am not nor have I ever been a serving member. My support and empathy for all ADF personnel is absolute and unconditional.
I make no excuses and would have no mercy for bin Laden. The case against him is compelling. His crimes are atrocious.
However I dont support this particular expedient political decision nor the process used by Howard (on the eve of a federal election). As Prime Minister he is not obliged to debate this issue, however without adequate debate the spirit of democracy (IMHO)is subverted.
Howard gave Bush carte blanche to do what he wishes with Oz personnel right from the word go. The US military behemoth is in no way dependant on our military contribution to achieve US mission objectives.
We are one of only three countries worldwide besides the US who have committed troops. Presumably that puts us toward the top of the terror target list.
We have 200 million moslems to our immediate north and plummeting relations b/w Canberra and Jakarta. Clearly, despite Bush's exhortations that this war is not against islam, many moslems around the globe do not share this view.
At the end of the day bin Laden was funded, trained and armed in significant part by the US in order to meet US foreign policy objectives in Afganistan.
His campaign of terror is reactive to his perception (justified or not) of US foreign policy as pervasive and unjust.
The burden of responsibility to sort this out belongs elsewhere.
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I was told last night by someone that one of the reasons we are backing America is also to give ourselves a IOU card.For the last 25 years we have given enormous money to Indonesia as a "peace offering" because they are our biggest threat. In the event that these funds dry up we will be under threat.
I dont know if there is substance in this or not and am not entering a debate BUT whatever our reasons it is not to send off our countries assets (our military) for a reason which is not close to home ,for a cause which will not benefit our country.
These henious acts can not continue to threaten the world,until 2 months ago we thought we lived in a lucky country, now that paradise has people who are scared of what to expect,what effects it will have on us,will it continue,people with vivid memories of the wars.This "war" has to happen,not necessarily with the casualities of previous wars but in any way necessary.
Yes the americans have been inadvertibly funding these terroists, but haven't we been funding Indonesia,our countries very threat?
Lets just thank our boys,prey for their safety and freedom because this is what they are offering us, me first "THANKYOU!!".
A little quote;
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,commited people can change the world;indeed it's the only thing that ever has"
I dont know if there is substance in this or not and am not entering a debate BUT whatever our reasons it is not to send off our countries assets (our military) for a reason which is not close to home ,for a cause which will not benefit our country.
These henious acts can not continue to threaten the world,until 2 months ago we thought we lived in a lucky country, now that paradise has people who are scared of what to expect,what effects it will have on us,will it continue,people with vivid memories of the wars.This "war" has to happen,not necessarily with the casualities of previous wars but in any way necessary.
Yes the americans have been inadvertibly funding these terroists, but haven't we been funding Indonesia,our countries very threat?
Lets just thank our boys,prey for their safety and freedom because this is what they are offering us, me first "THANKYOU!!".
A little quote;
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,commited people can change the world;indeed it's the only thing that ever has"
Daytrader,
I did not suggest that NSD's comments or political opinions bordered on treason. I believe those who actively refuse to support our troops in times of war, especially members of minority groups who might carry put acts of subversion against this country from within during times of war (declared or otherwise) might well constitute treason. This is a possibility that cannot be ruled out.
You are quite right that this problem sohould be sorted out by others, however the Islamic world has shown no inclination to do so. I have no doubt that extremists are willing to attack Islamic nations who are more favourably disposed to the US and its allies. I ponder the effect a fundamentalist terrorist attack on the principal mosques in Mecca or Medina might have in galvanising the Islamic nations into action...and on whose side they might act!
Indonesia may well have 200 million Islamic citizens, but it is far from monolithic. It seems to be held together mainly by a network of corrupt officials, both civilian and military. Put under any greater stress than it already experiences, it might well tear itself apart long before it managed to cause us any actual damage. This remains to be seen, and presumably the lead-time to prepare Indonesian air forces for strikes, as well as marshalling their naval forces for any placement of troops on foreign soil would be detected in enough time for a suitable response to be planned.
Aside from our differences about the Australian political system (which often seems to model a blocked sewerage system IMHO), we seem to be seeing eye-to-eye about ADF involvement. Your connecton to, and support for, the ADF is noted.
As for conscription, I heard recently that the PM has flatly ruled it out...just as he buried the GST in a famous TV interview some years back. I leave you to draw your own conclusions on that one.
I hope at least some of the serving ADF personnel are also PpRuNers and can read the messages of support that have been posted here.
I did not suggest that NSD's comments or political opinions bordered on treason. I believe those who actively refuse to support our troops in times of war, especially members of minority groups who might carry put acts of subversion against this country from within during times of war (declared or otherwise) might well constitute treason. This is a possibility that cannot be ruled out.
You are quite right that this problem sohould be sorted out by others, however the Islamic world has shown no inclination to do so. I have no doubt that extremists are willing to attack Islamic nations who are more favourably disposed to the US and its allies. I ponder the effect a fundamentalist terrorist attack on the principal mosques in Mecca or Medina might have in galvanising the Islamic nations into action...and on whose side they might act!
Indonesia may well have 200 million Islamic citizens, but it is far from monolithic. It seems to be held together mainly by a network of corrupt officials, both civilian and military. Put under any greater stress than it already experiences, it might well tear itself apart long before it managed to cause us any actual damage. This remains to be seen, and presumably the lead-time to prepare Indonesian air forces for strikes, as well as marshalling their naval forces for any placement of troops on foreign soil would be detected in enough time for a suitable response to be planned.
Aside from our differences about the Australian political system (which often seems to model a blocked sewerage system IMHO), we seem to be seeing eye-to-eye about ADF involvement. Your connecton to, and support for, the ADF is noted.
As for conscription, I heard recently that the PM has flatly ruled it out...just as he buried the GST in a famous TV interview some years back. I leave you to draw your own conclusions on that one.
I hope at least some of the serving ADF personnel are also PpRuNers and can read the messages of support that have been posted here.
