Ex Ansett 737 FOs
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ex Ansett 737 FOs
I was looking through a list of endangered species on the weekend and came to the conclusion that Ex AN 737 FOs should probably be on it. What is the future for you guys? Maybe you need your own lobby group as no-one is pushing your barrow. I hear Qantas has put an unofficial age limit on tranfers from Ansett. Where to now?
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rotorhead
Quite a few of the 737 FOs are already in training with virgin, and alot more are on thier way. From what they (FOs) tell me, only AN 737 pilots will be recruited to virgin untill the supply runs out. In any case, they have heaps of jet time and I don't think any of them will be hanging up thier flying boots anytime soon. AN MkII will also require more A320 pilots than are currently at AN.
Quite a few of the 737 FOs are already in training with virgin, and alot more are on thier way. From what they (FOs) tell me, only AN 737 pilots will be recruited to virgin untill the supply runs out. In any case, they have heaps of jet time and I don't think any of them will be hanging up thier flying boots anytime soon. AN MkII will also require more A320 pilots than are currently at AN.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where is Greenpeace when you need them!The AN 737 F/O is not an endangered species it is an extinct species!Some of the species were able to evolve and become Virgin 737 F/Os or even evolve within Ansett and eventually become the dominant of the two species as an A320 F/O.As a species within their own right they now only exist in log books and as so many check forms cluttering up the PATS database.If we had been cute and furry Bob Brown would have been incensed at our demise but alas we are now relegated to the history pages right next to the newted schmuck. 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: nz
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bronte Do you (or anybody for that matter) think that training costs will be taken into account by whoever ends up with Ansett 2 or god forbid will pilots actually have to pay for their own endorsements
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bambi
The answer to your question regarding paying for endoresments at this stage is a big fat "I don't know". We do not understand the fine details of the FoxLew bid nor any others. All I can suggest is that Ansett will continue to be a full service airline in all probability and as such wages should be in line with those at QF, and we should keep the training department as it is today. (although only the A320 and Sf340 sim will probably remain) I think we will keep quite a few of the management pilots on board and most of our current practises at flight operations should remain the same. (same AOC, SOPs, Ops manual ect.)
However, if LewFox (or succesful bidder) gets wind that new pilots would be willing to pay for thier endoresments then of course this is a possibilty. I doubt this will happen unless we go down the path of a discount carrier, which is very unlikely.
As a final thought, I wouldn't expect that Ansett MkII will employ non-Ansett or Ansett group pilots for something like 5 years. I have not heard of any A320 pilots who intend to resign (some WERE going to Dragonair, until Mr bin Laden came along....) and there are a hell of a lot of BAe146, 767 (particulary) and 737 pilots very keen to stay with AN at all costs, many very senior. As well, all CRJ pilots are now out of work and cannot go back onto the Metro (I think these are all going) or the Saab (many of these are going). To make matters worse, I don't think ANY airline ANYWHERE (apart from QF & VB at AN expense!) is hiring now or in the near future, so options overseas are exteremerly limited for AN crew. Sorry to paint a bleak picture but I don't think any "outsider" should worry if they will have to pay for the A320 endoresment or not, well at least for the next 5 years anyway! Best of luck to all.
The answer to your question regarding paying for endoresments at this stage is a big fat "I don't know". We do not understand the fine details of the FoxLew bid nor any others. All I can suggest is that Ansett will continue to be a full service airline in all probability and as such wages should be in line with those at QF, and we should keep the training department as it is today. (although only the A320 and Sf340 sim will probably remain) I think we will keep quite a few of the management pilots on board and most of our current practises at flight operations should remain the same. (same AOC, SOPs, Ops manual ect.)
However, if LewFox (or succesful bidder) gets wind that new pilots would be willing to pay for thier endoresments then of course this is a possibilty. I doubt this will happen unless we go down the path of a discount carrier, which is very unlikely.
As a final thought, I wouldn't expect that Ansett MkII will employ non-Ansett or Ansett group pilots for something like 5 years. I have not heard of any A320 pilots who intend to resign (some WERE going to Dragonair, until Mr bin Laden came along....) and there are a hell of a lot of BAe146, 767 (particulary) and 737 pilots very keen to stay with AN at all costs, many very senior. As well, all CRJ pilots are now out of work and cannot go back onto the Metro (I think these are all going) or the Saab (many of these are going). To make matters worse, I don't think ANY airline ANYWHERE (apart from QF & VB at AN expense!) is hiring now or in the near future, so options overseas are exteremerly limited for AN crew. Sorry to paint a bleak picture but I don't think any "outsider" should worry if they will have to pay for the A320 endoresment or not, well at least for the next 5 years anyway!
Best of luck to all.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Bronte,
Well actually, if you have 737 time then the UK isn't too bad at the moment. EasyJet, Go and Ryanair are recruiting (737 qual). Word on the street is that recruiting should start to pick up in the Northern Spring/Summer for experienced people. Jet time especially desired. The main hassle is of course the bloody 14 JAR exams that are such fun to do.
BA has stopped its Cadet scheme for the next 5 years.
So, if you have the residency/passport, don't write off the UK yet. However, before handing over vast amounts of cash, quite a few have lost money with schools going broke. Pay in installments and use a credit card.
Well actually, if you have 737 time then the UK isn't too bad at the moment. EasyJet, Go and Ryanair are recruiting (737 qual). Word on the street is that recruiting should start to pick up in the Northern Spring/Summer for experienced people. Jet time especially desired. The main hassle is of course the bloody 14 JAR exams that are such fun to do.
BA has stopped its Cadet scheme for the next 5 years.
So, if you have the residency/passport, don't write off the UK yet. However, before handing over vast amounts of cash, quite a few have lost money with schools going broke. Pay in installments and use a credit card.
Nunc est bibendum
Just a quick question as well Bronte. What is the status of your over age 60 pilots?
Does your award have it written that they are the first to go or do they have the seniorority to stay on?
How many of them do you have?
Will senior 767 drivers be able to bid back and displace a more junior A320 driver onto the scrap heap or are A320 drivers the only 'real' seniorority number in AN now?
Sorry to sidetrack but I am intrigued!
[ 13 November 2001: Message edited by: Keg ]
Does your award have it written that they are the first to go or do they have the seniorority to stay on?
How many of them do you have?
Will senior 767 drivers be able to bid back and displace a more junior A320 driver onto the scrap heap or are A320 drivers the only 'real' seniorority number in AN now?
Sorry to sidetrack but I am intrigued!
[ 13 November 2001: Message edited by: Keg ]
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg
Good question. I think anyone over 60 with intent to stay on or diplace lower seniority in these trying circumstance would have trouble in justifying the morals of such action.
It is in the interest of the administrators and other employers to place an embargo on such types.
Good question. I think anyone over 60 with intent to stay on or diplace lower seniority in these trying circumstance would have trouble in justifying the morals of such action.
It is in the interest of the administrators and other employers to place an embargo on such types.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pre September there was 800 pilots of which around seventy or so were over the age of 58. Some fifty out of the 800 have taken redundancy and the A320 pilots who put in for it were refused. Apparently around ten more have been sacked for flying for other airlines without permission from Ansett. The old blokes are hanging in there hoping for their jobs back. The younger blokes just wish they would go away and retire.
Ansett did not have seniority as such, however promoted on an "experience and qualifications" system which broadly paralled seniority but gave the company more discretion over the promotions.
As for the old boys staying on, I think the younger pilots will be given preference. Certainly no one will be displaced off the A320 for someone with more years of service. Why would an employer get rid of a thirty year old A320 FO so they could train up a 63 year old ex 767 captain? It does not mke economical sense these days.
In relation to compulsory redundancies, at this stage there has been no discussion of it as there is still no positive indication as to what is going to happen.
Ansett did not have seniority as such, however promoted on an "experience and qualifications" system which broadly paralled seniority but gave the company more discretion over the promotions.
As for the old boys staying on, I think the younger pilots will be given preference. Certainly no one will be displaced off the A320 for someone with more years of service. Why would an employer get rid of a thirty year old A320 FO so they could train up a 63 year old ex 767 captain? It does not mke economical sense these days.
In relation to compulsory redundancies, at this stage there has been no discussion of it as there is still no positive indication as to what is going to happen.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thanks EPIRB and most (except the old b's) would agree with your -
...unfortunately airline management seem to make decisions that are beyond the logical thinking of the average pilot - maybe THAT'S why so many airlines are going down the gurgler, or are in deep-serious 5h!t these days.....the apparently wrong decisions WERE, in fact WRONG!!
Undoubtedly you DO need a "core" of experience (so that you don't start the learning curve from the bottom), and you need a gradient in the age group employed, so that you don't experience a sudden exodus, creating a vacuum hence causing a myriad of relatively inexperienced guys to be promoted out of their depths. Unfortunately that happened in THAT year, and the comments from the C&T in Virgin who have taken on Ansett pilots, indicate that there is a "culture of inexperience that has been trained into them".
There WERE some good pilots who "went back" in 1989 - seek them out, and pick their brains, and let's hope we can see an ALL AUSTRALIAN Ansett rise from the ashes!!
Why would an employer get rid of a thirty year old A320 FO so they could train up a 63 year old ex 767 captain? It does not make economical sense these days
Undoubtedly you DO need a "core" of experience (so that you don't start the learning curve from the bottom), and you need a gradient in the age group employed, so that you don't experience a sudden exodus, creating a vacuum hence causing a myriad of relatively inexperienced guys to be promoted out of their depths. Unfortunately that happened in THAT year, and the comments from the C&T in Virgin who have taken on Ansett pilots, indicate that there is a "culture of inexperience that has been trained into them".
There WERE some good pilots who "went back" in 1989 - seek them out, and pick their brains, and let's hope we can see an ALL AUSTRALIAN Ansett rise from the ashes!!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: sydney australia
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wondering if the guys that were sacked for flying for another airline, whilst not being paid by Ansett would have a case for wrongful dismissal. I assume that the PPM has a clause that they aren't allowed to fly outside a certain numeber of hours, but also that no reasonable request would be refused. I always thought that this was to prevent any external flying interfering at Ansett. Surely not when you aren't being paid, let alone even worked.
Come to think of it, probably pointless sueing. They don't have money to sue them for. Although may apply to any of the 320 guys that may have been sacked.
Come to think of it, probably pointless sueing. They don't have money to sue them for. Although may apply to any of the 320 guys that may have been sacked.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it says in the PPM that you must have written permission from Ansett if you want to fly elswhere. I don't have it with me at the moment but I recollect it from somewhere. You can't really blame blokes for going elsewhere under the current conditions but we were told to get permission if we wanted to fly elsewhere after the administrators moved in. It isn't hard to get as long as it's not for Qantas or Virgin. They're resign jobs. At the moment there are about fifty AN pilots scattered around the world on leave of absence flying for other operators. Maybe they are the lucky ones?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"culture of inexperience that has been trained into them".
What a load of drivel. Anyone who has done any study in this area will tell you that after 3000 hours in a role there is little discernable difference in a pilots performance across a test group. I take it since you were one to leave Kaptin that all experience left with you and your friends. Sounds very plausable. In Europe of course quick upgrades are part of the scenery are they part of this culture as well? I would imagine that the comments from the Virgin C&T staff are more about continued agendas rather than reality. I take it that the pilot off a Dash 8 does not have that inexperience culture so after 12 months basking in the experience culture they will be right for an upgrade. What a load of... It it all about the individual and their ability to upgrade . Oh I thought that there had been only a few guys actually checked out in the sim at this stage so an objective opinion is always nice.
What a load of drivel. Anyone who has done any study in this area will tell you that after 3000 hours in a role there is little discernable difference in a pilots performance across a test group. I take it since you were one to leave Kaptin that all experience left with you and your friends. Sounds very plausable. In Europe of course quick upgrades are part of the scenery are they part of this culture as well? I would imagine that the comments from the Virgin C&T staff are more about continued agendas rather than reality. I take it that the pilot off a Dash 8 does not have that inexperience culture so after 12 months basking in the experience culture they will be right for an upgrade. What a load of... It it all about the individual and their ability to upgrade . Oh I thought that there had been only a few guys actually checked out in the sim at this stage so an objective opinion is always nice.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B’ar, I believe you’re allowing emotion to rule in your misunderstanding of the intent of good Kapt’s posting. It’s not a criticism of the experience or, to a lesser degree, professionalism of any individual. It’s a comment, made by people outside AN and with no axe to grind, (not the Kapt, who was just repeating it), that with the gutting of the airline’s experience base in that year we dare not mention left a void that has not been adequately filled and can never be filled when the vast majority of mentors, ie, the respected, experienced senior pilots, are not there to pass on years of ingrained habits etc to the up and comers within the airline.
AN was not alone in this. Ask around at QF and they’ll tell you a similar story regarding their 737 domestic operations. A detailed perusal of Flight Recorders (it may have been Quick Access Recorders, I’m not sure which) of their 737 fleet a few years ago in QANDOM revealed a number of practices, (none of which, I hasten to say, had resulted in an accident), that left the QF Flight Safety Department dismayed. I hesitate to cite any details here because I know there are journalists out there who read this site. Suffice to say it was appalling to believe anyone would do what the QAR/FDR revealed some captains had done with their aircraft with passengers and crew aboard.
Occurrences such as this are nipped in the bud very early in an airline where there’s an (even small) experienced, respected pilot base – even in new starts with a majority of young, relatively inexperienced captains usually have a leadership which sets the tone, or ‘safety culture’ of the airline. History has shown that airlines lacking an appropriate safety culture usually don’t see the distance for one reason or another.
AN was not alone in this. Ask around at QF and they’ll tell you a similar story regarding their 737 domestic operations. A detailed perusal of Flight Recorders (it may have been Quick Access Recorders, I’m not sure which) of their 737 fleet a few years ago in QANDOM revealed a number of practices, (none of which, I hasten to say, had resulted in an accident), that left the QF Flight Safety Department dismayed. I hesitate to cite any details here because I know there are journalists out there who read this site. Suffice to say it was appalling to believe anyone would do what the QAR/FDR revealed some captains had done with their aircraft with passengers and crew aboard.
Occurrences such as this are nipped in the bud very early in an airline where there’s an (even small) experienced, respected pilot base – even in new starts with a majority of young, relatively inexperienced captains usually have a leadership which sets the tone, or ‘safety culture’ of the airline. History has shown that airlines lacking an appropriate safety culture usually don’t see the distance for one reason or another.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Here today, gone tommorrow
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AN, KD etc are very quick to ram their side of the PPM, EBA etc down their staff's neck.
However, they are very reluctant to acknowledge the other side of it,like paying the EBA amount, on time, or seniority for redundancies, prohibition on the company with part time work, penalty provisions etc.
If the company, and hence the industrial awards are gone, then whose AOC are they using (refer CAAO 83.0 'Borrowed AOC')
However, they are very reluctant to acknowledge the other side of it,like paying the EBA amount, on time, or seniority for redundancies, prohibition on the company with part time work, penalty provisions etc.
If the company, and hence the industrial awards are gone, then whose AOC are they using (refer CAAO 83.0 'Borrowed AOC')
Guest
Posts: n/a
The people that I feel sorry for are not the out of work Ansett pilots with fat bank accounts, (best of luck to them), but the poor GA battlers that have clawed their way out of the mire of GA and even paid for a jet endorsement only to find that they are back at the bottom of sh..t pile due employers giving them the finger and taking on the ex Ansett guys. Cannot blame the employers of course, as their motto is never give a sucker an easy break. Not when there are hundreds of experienced jet qualified pilots instantly available.