virgin blue discrimination III
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virgin blue discrimination III
knackered.. .. ."All employment selection is a form of discrimination and as long as long as it's not based on race, creed, color or age then it has to be OK. Basically these people want to tell the employer, in this case VB, who they should employ". .. .Wrong. No one wants to tell VB who to employ. But every applicant has a right to be processed fairly. (employment is not limited to race, creed, color, etc - it is far more complex than that) . .. .Kap M. ."Ansett has been dead for only 3 weeks and the scabs feel that THEY are entitled to be given work straight away - even though VB aren't recruiting at the moment.". .. .Wrong again. I cant imagine any AN pilot who thinks that they are entitled to be 'given' a job at VB. The 737 drivers I know are more than happy to stand in line and wait for a yay or a nay.. .. .Flyspray,. .The real corporate world, unlike the airline industry, generally works on the principal of transparency. This would ensure scabs are processed along with everyone else.. . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 12:38: Message edited by: oicur12 ]</small>
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Are you perhaps suggesting that VB MUST hire some people instead of others? How is that any less discriminating? There are far more applicants than jobs, someone will inevitably miss out. VB have a right to pick the most suitable people for their company.
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"Are you perhaps suggesting that VB MUST hire some people instead of others? How is that any less discriminating? There are far more applicants than jobs, someone will inevitably miss out. VB have a right to pick the most suitable people for their company.". .. .Not at all. No one is telling VB who to hire. The law, however, ensures that in the selection process, VB cannot discriminate against an applicant based on industrial involvement. Pilots have always been hesitant to seek legal advice about employment selection in Oz, but this is changing. Every carrier in Oz is in the dark ages with regard to transparent selection. VB are leaving themselves wide open.
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Virgin Blue will hire who fit their job criteria - simple as that. They will also have who they want working for them. Anyone care to disagree, I'm sure Chris Corrigan won't mind a court stoush, he's an exponent at bringing down union bullies.
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oicur12, "employment is not limited to race, creed, color, etc - it is far more complex than that", no kidding. Yes but these are the only areas where an employer is not meant to make a distinction. THe rest is up to him. Of course it's complex. But it's the employers choice. . .. .The nature of this discussion is who VB should employ. If there is no discrimination on the above points, then it's up to them. End of story.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
oicur12 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">"This is the law and VB have been breaking it."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">It`s a very brave or very stupid man who makes an accusation such as that one on a public forum oicur.. .. .But having made your bed in 1989, and now finding that it`s a little uncomfortable a short time on, I guess we don`t have to think too hard as to which one of the two you qualify!. .. .Perhaps you might need to heed some more of your OWN advice - " Pilots have always been hesitant to seek legal advice.. - if Virgin Blue's legal team decide to pursue you on that statement!!
Okay oicur 12, YOU SAY that discrimination is not limited to age, sex, credd, colour, religion, diability etc as above. Where is YOUR evidence? Examples please?. .. .My bush lawyer knowledge suggests you are wrong. What other discrimination is there?. .. .Example: A woman was refused entry to a nightclub by a bouncer. He said she was ugly and could not come in! As is the case nowadays she sought a resolution (money) through the courts for discrimination.. .The court found that :. .1: Being private property the nightclub had the right to refuse her entry and. .2: The bouncer's comment that she was ugly, whilst offensive to her, was not discrimination as defined in legislation.. .. .I noticed somewhere else that two FAs were supposedly refused employment because they were too short. SURE. Does anyone really think the airline would put THAT in the "thanks but no thanks" letter? Get real. So that means the individuals THOUGHT that was the reason but they don't know and probably never will.. .. .As far as ex scabs, heroes whatever not being employed. You will NEVER find out from ANY company why they didn't employ you for obvious reasons, so get over it.. .. .The bottom line is, it is great to have rights but no use if they are unenforceable. IF there was a LIST and that influenced hiring policy, how on earth will you ever prove it?. .. .Move on.
Part II--DISCRIMINATION TO WHICH ACT APPLIES Grounds (1) This Act applies to discrimination on the ground of any of the following attributes:. .(a). .sex;. .. .(b). .sexuality;. .. .(c). .transsexuality;. .. .(d). .marital status;. .. .(e). .status as a parent or carer;. .. .(f). .pregnancy;. .. .(g). .race;. .. .(h). .religious or political conviction;. .. .(i). .impairment;. .. .(ia). .membership or non-membership of an association or organisation of employers or employees;. .. .(ib). .age;. .. .(ic). .profession, trade, occupation or calling;. .. .(j). .association (whether as a relative or otherwise) with a person identified by reference to an attribute referred to in another paragraph of this subsection.
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Oicur. .. .Can you please elaborate on what specific grounds Virgin Blue is discriminating against Ansett Pilots with reference to the extract I have pasted below from the Anti-Discrimination Commission of Queensland Website. . .. .To my knowledge VB has employed approximately 30 former AN pilots to date.. .. .We keenly await your reply post.. .. ."Anti-Discrimination Commission of Queensland. .Your Guide. .Why are we here?. .. .Anti-discrimination legislation is about ensuring that everyone gets a fair go in life. The Queensland Anti-Discrimination Act 1991 was enacted to promote fair treatment and equality of opportunity by making unfair discrimination and all sexual harassment against the law. It gives all of us the right to be treated fairly and to take action if unlawful discrimination or sexual harassment occurs. It also places responsibilities on all of us to ensure that unlawful discrimination and sexual harassment are minimised or prevented.. .. .The Act prohibits sexual harassment, which is any form of unwelcome sexual attention that is offensive, intimidating or humiliating. It also prohibits discrimination on the basis of:. .. .sex . .marital status . .pregnancy . .parental status . .breastfeeding . .age . .race . .impairment . .religion . .political belief or activity . .trade union activity . .lawful sexual activity . .association with, or relation to, a person who has any of the above attributes . .. .Unlike sexual harassment, which is against the law in all circumstances, discrimination is only against the law if it covers one or more of the grounds listed above and if it occurs in any of the following areas:. .. .employment . .education . .goods and services . .accommodation . .superannuation and insurance . .disposal of land . .club membership and affairs . .local government . .administration of State laws and programs". . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 21:55: Message edited by: Interceptor ]</small>
Virgin Blue haven't contacted me yet, an I am/was a 737 FO with Ansett (joined May 95).. .. .Perhaps you cant' assume that VB are avoiding certain people just because they haven't been contacted immediately an application was submitted.
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Icarus 2001 said. .. .“You will NEVER find out from ANY company why they didn't employ you for obvious reasons, so get over it.”. .. .This is probably true but also illegal. Every company is required to supply all applicants with feedback regarding the selection process. This provides the candidate with reasons why they have not been selected. The company must show that the candidate was rejected as a result of not fitting applicable criteria (e.g., height, hours flown, license etc). If the candidate can prove that they were rejected for reasons not based on this criteria (e.g., trade union activity, communicable disease) then one has recourse to the law.. .. .As I said before, pilots perceive it to be professionally compromising to challenge major airlines during the selection process. In the case of VB, it is obvious that a scab, hero, returnee or whatever simplistic labels you may wish to apply, will not be employed. Not under its present management. . .. .I am no longer in the airline industry as such, I was not involved in 89 and do not even care if VB employ hero’s, 89ers or little green men from mars.. .. .Icarus2001, I have nothing to get over. I just like to use facts when debating people instead of urban myth, hunch or bush lawyerism’s.. .. .Whiskery,. .. .“Virgin Blue will hire who fit their job criteria”.. .. .This is very true. But, if challenged, they must be able to provide evidence that the criteria used in selection is essential to the job description. If the exit is high, you must be tall. If the jet is complex, you must be experienced. If you were a scab….sorry, this has nothing to do with operating a jet.. .. .I did not write these laws and do not even agree with many of them. But don’t point the finger at me – lobby your local member.. .. .The aviation industry is a law unto itself in many ways. This is just one of them.
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oicur12, your quotes:-. .. ."Every company is required to supply all applicants with feedback regarding the selection process. This provides the candidate with reasons why they have not been selected.". .. .and:-. .. ."If challenged, they must be able to provide evidence that the criteria used in selection is essential to the job description.". .. .......Wrong, I am an employer and believe me there in nothing in the law that requires me to tell a rejected candidate why I did not employ him/her. In fact by law you don't even have to reply to the application, also it is strongly suggested by my legal consultant that if a candidate is interviewed then he/she is morally(not legally) entitled to a reply, positive or negative, but the reply not include any reason.. .. .Therefore all you mention about "the law" is in fact not true. I might also add that legal advice suggests that you be very careful what is said in this regard because it can be very litigious. .. .Have a nice day
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When are you all going to wake up and smell the roses.......... .. .Aviation is not even handed and never will be, in certain companies it depended on who you were, who you knew and who you were related to.. .. .Full STOP. .. .There are a thousand of drivers out there that meet DJ's requirements....... so what. I bet you all meet the requirements to work @ Maccas as well.. .. .We all know some body who got in, we all know some who have not, and we all know a couple mates who are wanting to get home, have plenty of time on 737 &/or NG and they have not heard Boo.. .. .So what, get on with life and be a realist, there are 10000 in the cue in front of you and the chance of getting hired is 1%.. .. .Dont bitch & moan, and say oh, what about the they guy with 1500 hrs and no turbine that got in, what about it.. .. .Just because you think that you should have got in because you have the rating and are current, so to at least 500 other guys.. .. .Its DJ's toy and they can do what ever they want with it, hire whoever they want because they have got one big thing on their side.......choice.. .. .If JR says nnaaah, there aint no point if you are a left handed, two headed, green, gay, native title seeking, g string wearing, blonde, upper outer mongolian with 3000 P1 on an NG. . .NAAAH is Still NAAAH. . .. .(no offence to a left handed, two headed, green, gay, native title seeking, g string wearing, blonde, upper outer mongolian with 3000 P1 on an NG). .. .If you think your hard done by, review you history and stop banging your head against the wall. Get out of the industry and get a different perspective.. .. .Australia has always had too many pilots for our population, simple fact, go back twenty years when every second sydney cabbie had a cpl.. .. .The same now to many people not enough jobs but know you all think you are entiitled to some think because the big book of word says so....... .. .Grow up get a life & stop moaning, and remember you are an Aussie, where the tough get on with it with out reflection on what could have been. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 23:10: Message edited by: international hog driver ]</small>
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Rabbit,. .. .I would suggest you talk to a new lawyer.. .. .In my dealings with QF and AN (the original - not the flew thing) regarding employment selection, it became apparent that even the big companies are leaving themselves wide open. I think it is pretty clear that a regional pilot from QF link will struggle to land a job with QF mainline. A few token gestures only. Business sense it may be (training costs) but it is also discrimination.. .. .Rabbit, I do not know how large your business is and in what industry, but small business is exempt from some aspects of these laws.. .. .This is not the case in VB,QF etc.
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Ok Interceptor,. .. .I'll try again. .. .When someone convinces me that 80% of the female population of Australia are blonde or are women who peroxide their hair, I'll agree that Virgin Blue don't disciminate!!