After Ansett, the Plug Gets Pulled at Air New Zealand
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Very sorry to hear about ANZ.
Wouldn't be surprised at all if Bank of Scotland in their roundabout ways had a finger in it somewhere.
Beware of Scotsmen from Edinburgh bearing gifts.
All at Gill Airways know how you feel.
You have our sympathies and good wishes in your search for meaningful employment in this crazy industry.
Wouldn't be surprised at all if Bank of Scotland in their roundabout ways had a finger in it somewhere.
Beware of Scotsmen from Edinburgh bearing gifts.
All at Gill Airways know how you feel.
You have our sympathies and good wishes in your search for meaningful employment in this crazy industry.
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Here is quote from the Sydney Morning Herald.
Looks like SQ have outsmarted themselevs this time:
"Yet the cabal of wealthy businessmen which effectively runs Singapore, injected money into both Impulse and Virgin in order to lower fares and run Ansett down. The tactic was to buy Ansett cheaply but, when the damage had been done, Singapore Airlines decided the cost of recapitalisation was too high."
Not only that but they accidentally crippled ANZ, their other investment, as well.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Cloud Cuckooland ]
Looks like SQ have outsmarted themselevs this time:
"Yet the cabal of wealthy businessmen which effectively runs Singapore, injected money into both Impulse and Virgin in order to lower fares and run Ansett down. The tactic was to buy Ansett cheaply but, when the damage had been done, Singapore Airlines decided the cost of recapitalisation was too high."
Not only that but they accidentally crippled ANZ, their other investment, as well.
[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Cloud Cuckooland ]
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Clive....If you wish to use the Erebus story
for any purpose, especially in the context you have seen fit to use it,
please tell the full story. Justice
Mahons findings were overturned by both the
NZ Appeal Court and the Privy Council. A lot
of people seem to have a problem with that,
but a lot more of us see it as a more
correct finding than his.
for any purpose, especially in the context you have seen fit to use it,
please tell the full story. Justice
Mahons findings were overturned by both the
NZ Appeal Court and the Privy Council. A lot
of people seem to have a problem with that,
but a lot more of us see it as a more
correct finding than his.
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Prospector.... agreed, to use the Erebus tragedy is to open a can of worms. My motivation was to highlight the "corporate culture" that manifested itself in the years of squabling that resulted from Erebus.
I feel the aviation industry needs more of the culture that saw Ansett learn from its latent failures that, or example, resulted in the 747 nosegear incident in Sydney. That culture saw real change in an effort to stop any similar events in the future - including the production of a training video (lauded around the world) that pulled no punches in its self criticisim.
I wish no ill on the hard working and dedicated staff of Air NZ. I personally believe they produce a service product that few other airlines could equal, and I would not wish the situation that Ansett finds itself in on anyone (except for the board, perhaps). But all the best training in the world and all the best intentions in the world cannot assist those who wish to use their skills of "protection" when defending the latent failures of a senior management who only ever exhibit their skills of "production".
I feel the aviation industry needs more of the culture that saw Ansett learn from its latent failures that, or example, resulted in the 747 nosegear incident in Sydney. That culture saw real change in an effort to stop any similar events in the future - including the production of a training video (lauded around the world) that pulled no punches in its self criticisim.
I wish no ill on the hard working and dedicated staff of Air NZ. I personally believe they produce a service product that few other airlines could equal, and I would not wish the situation that Ansett finds itself in on anyone (except for the board, perhaps). But all the best training in the world and all the best intentions in the world cannot assist those who wish to use their skills of "protection" when defending the latent failures of a senior management who only ever exhibit their skills of "production".
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Would certainly agree with you on top
management philosophy of profit before all
else, probably the Harvard Business School
of thought filtering through. As to statutary
management being able to solve the problem,that solution leaves a lot to be desired. It would appear that these people
once again walk away from debts to all the
smaller businesses that keep the fat cats fat
with no personal loss for their abysmal management techniques. That is not going to solve anything, and it only protects Air NZ
assets in New Zealand. Just goes to show
what bean counters can achieve all on their
own.
management philosophy of profit before all
else, probably the Harvard Business School
of thought filtering through. As to statutary
management being able to solve the problem,that solution leaves a lot to be desired. It would appear that these people
once again walk away from debts to all the
smaller businesses that keep the fat cats fat
with no personal loss for their abysmal management techniques. That is not going to solve anything, and it only protects Air NZ
assets in New Zealand. Just goes to show
what bean counters can achieve all on their
own.
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Clive:
If you really are only having a go at the ANZ board, why not lay off the insults to NZ? All you are doing is confirming that you are really just another xenophobic Aussie.
BTW, the real damage was done to Ansett long before ANZ got there... try looking to incompetent, greedy management in your own country. At least ANZ tried to save the company, a lot more than any Aussie organisation has done.
...cutting of the anchor chain that holds their islands socially, and economically, to Australia's shirt tales, and stops them from floating into oblivion...
...his sad country
BTW, the real damage was done to Ansett long before ANZ got there... try looking to incompetent, greedy management in your own country. At least ANZ tried to save the company, a lot more than any Aussie organisation has done.
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Raw Data,
Yeh you are right.... I suppose I am just venting my spleen at everyone at the moment. I do sincerely appologise to the kiwi's. I have numerous kiwi friends and from what I have seen of your country it is far from sad!
On the point of damage prior to the Air NZ arrival... yes, you are also correct on that point. As I said in the original post there will be "mountains of paper and gigabytes of computer memory" devoted to the causal chain of events that led to this organisational accident. However the lack of business accumin in regards to the purchase of the second half of the once proud Ansett defies belief. The lack of ability to stop it going as far as it did is also unforgivable. While passing the buck to previous owners has some justification.... diverting ultimate blame does not wash with me or with most economic comentators on both sides of the ditch.
Raw Data - if you are caught up in all this please accept my sincere regrets (and I'm not being sarcastic). As 'prospector' has said - it looks like those most at fault in all of this will be the ones to walk away scott free.
Yeh you are right.... I suppose I am just venting my spleen at everyone at the moment. I do sincerely appologise to the kiwi's. I have numerous kiwi friends and from what I have seen of your country it is far from sad!
On the point of damage prior to the Air NZ arrival... yes, you are also correct on that point. As I said in the original post there will be "mountains of paper and gigabytes of computer memory" devoted to the causal chain of events that led to this organisational accident. However the lack of business accumin in regards to the purchase of the second half of the once proud Ansett defies belief. The lack of ability to stop it going as far as it did is also unforgivable. While passing the buck to previous owners has some justification.... diverting ultimate blame does not wash with me or with most economic comentators on both sides of the ditch.
Raw Data - if you are caught up in all this please accept my sincere regrets (and I'm not being sarcastic). As 'prospector' has said - it looks like those most at fault in all of this will be the ones to walk away scott free.
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prospector: Get it right...
The findings of Mahon, J stand as published.
One small (and irrelevant, when viewed with hindsight) part was pushed through the Court of Appeal and Privy Council.
The truth remains in spite of this
The findings of Mahon, J stand as published.
One small (and irrelevant, when viewed with hindsight) part was pushed through the Court of Appeal and Privy Council.
The truth remains in spite of this
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Sloth.. I do believe I have got it right.
Privy Council Judgement 20 Oct 1983. Five Law Lords dismissed commissioners appeal and upheld Court of Appeal decision. Their ruling stated that Justice Mahon had committed clear breaches of natural justice. They then demolished his case item by item,including exhibit 164. The Court of Appeal stated in part that several aspects
that were brought to the Commissioners Attention during the enquiry were ignored by him. These were aspects that anyone having any experience of Aviation matters, of which the Commissioner had none, nor did he have any experienced Aviation advisors, found were relevant, and obviously the Appeal Court and the Privy Council also believed they were relevant.
Privy Council Judgement 20 Oct 1983. Five Law Lords dismissed commissioners appeal and upheld Court of Appeal decision. Their ruling stated that Justice Mahon had committed clear breaches of natural justice. They then demolished his case item by item,including exhibit 164. The Court of Appeal stated in part that several aspects
that were brought to the Commissioners Attention during the enquiry were ignored by him. These were aspects that anyone having any experience of Aviation matters, of which the Commissioner had none, nor did he have any experienced Aviation advisors, found were relevant, and obviously the Appeal Court and the Privy Council also believed they were relevant.
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Clive, thanks for that. No, I'm not caught up in it (yet), I'm flying in Europe while aviation in my homeland goes down the gurgler. I had hoped to return home one day, but the way things are going it won't be until I retire.
I quite agree that the turkeys that have done all the damage will walk away with their golden handshakes intact whilst, as usual, those at the coalface pay with their jobs. I am as disgusted as you are, believe me.
I quite agree that the turkeys that have done all the damage will walk away with their golden handshakes intact whilst, as usual, those at the coalface pay with their jobs. I am as disgusted as you are, believe me.
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Well, Gentle Giant, I expect that the Guvnor will make a better fist of running an airline than you managed to do with your less-than-impressive attempt at running an airline... people in glass houses, etc...
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in order to add a little light hearted comment to proceedings, thought some of you would be amused by the following quote I read recently with reference to Ansett & Air NZ:
Spoken by an Ansett union spokesman with reference to Air NZ management of Ansett:
" what do you expect from a country whose national symbol is a flightless bird?!?!?"
Lovely....
Cheers
Z.
Spoken by an Ansett union spokesman with reference to Air NZ management of Ansett:
" what do you expect from a country whose national symbol is a flightless bird?!?!?"
Lovely....
Cheers
Z.
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Prospector
You may be technically correct in that the PC decided that PM had exceeded some terms of reference. However, Sloth is correct in that the aviation world accepts PM's findings as correct and recognizes the attempts by ANZ to place the complete blame on the crew.
By the way, if you look into the case closely, you will find that two members of the NZ Court of Appeals had vested interests in ANZ at the time! Conflict of interests??
You may be technically correct in that the PC decided that PM had exceeded some terms of reference. However, Sloth is correct in that the aviation world accepts PM's findings as correct and recognizes the attempts by ANZ to place the complete blame on the crew.
By the way, if you look into the case closely, you will find that two members of the NZ Court of Appeals had vested interests in ANZ at the time! Conflict of interests??
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The same names keep turning up like lame and ANFO rubbing their hands together waiting for ANZ's demise. They might be waiting a while. ANFO I think you had better take back your allegations that ANZ booked up the fuel to Ansett. These charges amongst others have been utterly refuted by AirNZ. Paranoia from the other side of the Tasman. Facts please.
Share price is up by the way.
Share price is up by the way.
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Well if ANZ are on the slopes, what is gonna be happening to their lo-cost outfit FreedomAir? is this on the way out too, or are they set to go their own way????
Just a thought
Just a thought
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Skol,
I see from your profile you are a 747-400 driver - with ANZ I guess. You have a lot to be proud of. As I said to 'Raw Data' the job you guys do at the "coalface" in ANZ results in a product almost second to none in the world. But plese don't allow your justified pride to blinker your wider vision. Yes.... the fuel allegations may indeed prove to be false however, as per my post (the big preachy one) back a page or two, you can expect to see continued buck passing from the Board of Directors.
Regardless of the mountains of allegations, and the equally large dose of "I didn't do it" there can be little doubt that the failings of the Air NZ board were the final nails in the coffin at Ansett. Thats just not me being Henny Penny... that is the considered opinion of most aviation and economic commentators from both sides of the ditch.
Yes... there is a lot more to it, and yes... past managers are just as much to blame.... however take those blinkers off my friend because it appears likely that your leaders will take you all down a similar road to that travelled at Ansett. With all due respect it may be best to get your affairs in order and study your alternate charts.... I hope not, for yours and many others sake, but it is a reality. The "head in the sand" and "blame everyone else" culture is alive and well in the ANZ Board Room.
(Assuming you have re-read my initial post please accept my appologies for the payout on NZ and it's people per se. I was still in the denial stage at that point. I'm only cranky at the Board... not you guys!)
I see from your profile you are a 747-400 driver - with ANZ I guess. You have a lot to be proud of. As I said to 'Raw Data' the job you guys do at the "coalface" in ANZ results in a product almost second to none in the world. But plese don't allow your justified pride to blinker your wider vision. Yes.... the fuel allegations may indeed prove to be false however, as per my post (the big preachy one) back a page or two, you can expect to see continued buck passing from the Board of Directors.
Regardless of the mountains of allegations, and the equally large dose of "I didn't do it" there can be little doubt that the failings of the Air NZ board were the final nails in the coffin at Ansett. Thats just not me being Henny Penny... that is the considered opinion of most aviation and economic commentators from both sides of the ditch.
Yes... there is a lot more to it, and yes... past managers are just as much to blame.... however take those blinkers off my friend because it appears likely that your leaders will take you all down a similar road to that travelled at Ansett. With all due respect it may be best to get your affairs in order and study your alternate charts.... I hope not, for yours and many others sake, but it is a reality. The "head in the sand" and "blame everyone else" culture is alive and well in the ANZ Board Room.
(Assuming you have re-read my initial post please accept my appologies for the payout on NZ and it's people per se. I was still in the denial stage at that point. I'm only cranky at the Board... not you guys!)
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Clive,
I agree with you. The board and management need a shake out and I can't wait. Past management too must shoulder their share of the blame. All I am doing is stopping a bit of kiwi bashing that's going on. Ansett was probably going to be history no matter who owned it. There are a lot of posts salivating at the thought of ANZ receivership, and even if it does happen I doubt much will change. As much has been signalled by the Govt. The PM has said that NZ without AirNZ is "unthinkable".
I agree with you. The board and management need a shake out and I can't wait. Past management too must shoulder their share of the blame. All I am doing is stopping a bit of kiwi bashing that's going on. Ansett was probably going to be history no matter who owned it. There are a lot of posts salivating at the thought of ANZ receivership, and even if it does happen I doubt much will change. As much has been signalled by the Govt. The PM has said that NZ without AirNZ is "unthinkable".