New Aviation forum for Australians??
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Sydney, Australia
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F111,
aus.aviation is a newsgroup (aka discussion group)on Usenet. Usenet, though part of the Internet, is not part of the WWW, so you cannot use your web browser to see it.
You most probably already have access to usenet through your ISP account, but sounds like you don't use it. What you have to do is configure your email/news proggy to
1 Connect to your ISP's news server (check with your ISP for settings)
2 Download a list of newsgroups (there are tens of thousands, but it only takes a few minutes)
3 From that list subscribe to the newsgroups of your choice (in this case aus.aviation). "Subscribe" in this case does not mean part with cash. It just means automatically collect the messages that appear in the newsgroups you select.
Most email clients can do news as well, so chances are you have all you need, you just need to set it up. If you need more info, email me. (Address in profile)
AA
aus.aviation is a newsgroup (aka discussion group)on Usenet. Usenet, though part of the Internet, is not part of the WWW, so you cannot use your web browser to see it.
You most probably already have access to usenet through your ISP account, but sounds like you don't use it. What you have to do is configure your email/news proggy to
1 Connect to your ISP's news server (check with your ISP for settings)
2 Download a list of newsgroups (there are tens of thousands, but it only takes a few minutes)
3 From that list subscribe to the newsgroups of your choice (in this case aus.aviation). "Subscribe" in this case does not mean part with cash. It just means automatically collect the messages that appear in the newsgroups you select.
Most email clients can do news as well, so chances are you have all you need, you just need to set it up. If you need more info, email me. (Address in profile)
AA
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Buster et al
I've been trying to stay out of this one, but you know how it is
[quote] Aussies have always been an irreverant lot (Kiwis too), but I guess what we didn't realise was that some folks across the globe just don't get it, or us for that matter. We all know the vitriol we can throw across the Tasman, and we can do it with passion, but, at the end of the day, we are still the best of mates & wouldn't want to go into a fight without each other, as tradition & history shows.
<hr></blockquote>
Is still believe, at least for my part and I suspect most of that is TRUE.
Some of what I have seen lately goes a bit beyond that, to the extent that it was becoming difficult to separate bad good bits from the good bad bits from each other.
The people at PPRuNe HQ with a world forum perspective must look at the other forums and D & G and wonder that we aren't all dead from killing each other.
But they do understand about D & Gers as I recall succesfully campaigning for one of the more controversial 89ers return. With regret sometimes I might add , only joking .
I think what has happened here is that in the real heat of the local airline situation there has been a polarisation that was not necessary, but understandable under the circumstances, that was fuelled by certain personalities with other agneda and also a fair bit of I told you so.
In the middle of all this most everyone has lost sight of who the real enemy is, ourselves.
WE have all been affected one way or another. The culprits are still at large and feeding the fire, US, to produce as much heat/smoke as possible to enable them to get on with their agenda.
I have tried the aus.aviation thing and am not surprised that the UBB format is so popular, it's easy user friendly and MUCH more immediate.
Moderated it is but I have not so far seen anything other than moderate moderating and even squirm a little at some of the things that aren't moderated in the effort to allow a point of view that might not be so eloquently put as some of us are capable.
For me, I have had a good troll around over the years and this one is THE best.
If D & G dies then so be it, but it will be because we killed it.
I'm just as happy continuing to monitor and contribute where I usefully can in R & N and the other fascinating forums.
So far I KNOW that D & G has had some effect in matters Oz aviation at the highest levels, it has done so because of the way it is moderated and does not push ANY political agenda as do some of the others. Think about it.
You have a conduit to these halls as long as it doesn't degenerate into an anarchist rabble dominated by vengeful posters.
Use it (properly) or lose it is pretty trite but salutary.
Lose it and you throw the field open to the others where you WILL have to get behind the AGENDA.
The choice as always is yours. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I've been trying to stay out of this one, but you know how it is
[quote] Aussies have always been an irreverant lot (Kiwis too), but I guess what we didn't realise was that some folks across the globe just don't get it, or us for that matter. We all know the vitriol we can throw across the Tasman, and we can do it with passion, but, at the end of the day, we are still the best of mates & wouldn't want to go into a fight without each other, as tradition & history shows.
<hr></blockquote>
Is still believe, at least for my part and I suspect most of that is TRUE.
Some of what I have seen lately goes a bit beyond that, to the extent that it was becoming difficult to separate bad good bits from the good bad bits
from each other.The people at PPRuNe HQ with a world forum perspective must look at the other forums and D & G and wonder that we aren't all dead from killing each other.
But they do understand about D & Gers as I recall succesfully campaigning for one of the more controversial 89ers return. With regret sometimes I might add
, only joking .I think what has happened here is that in the real heat of the local airline situation there has been a polarisation that was not necessary, but understandable under the circumstances, that was fuelled by certain personalities with other agneda and also a fair bit of I told you so.
In the middle of all this most everyone has lost sight of who the real enemy is, ourselves.
WE have all been affected one way or another. The culprits are still at large and feeding the fire, US, to produce as much heat/smoke as possible to enable them to get on with their agenda.
I have tried the aus.aviation thing and am not surprised that the UBB format is so popular, it's easy user friendly and MUCH more immediate.
Moderated it is but I have not so far seen anything other than moderate moderating and even squirm a little at some of the things that aren't moderated in the effort to allow a point of view that might not be so eloquently put as some of us are capable.
For me, I have had a good troll around over the years and this one is THE best.
If D & G dies then so be it, but it will be because we killed it.
I'm just as happy continuing to monitor and contribute where I usefully can in R & N and the other fascinating forums.
So far I KNOW that D & G has had some effect in matters Oz aviation at the highest levels, it has done so because of the way it is moderated and does not push ANY political agenda as do some of the others. Think about it.
You have a conduit to these halls as long as it doesn't degenerate into an anarchist rabble dominated by vengeful posters.
Use it (properly) or lose it is pretty trite but salutary.
Lose it and you throw the field open to the others where you WILL have to get behind the AGENDA.
The choice as always is yours. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It's a shame that posts (such as the one I am now making) which follow higher quality, intuitive contributions (such as Gaunty's) detract the "browsers" attention. So please, if you ARE only browsing, read Gaunty's contribution above.
If we take a minute to look at WHY this discussion has evolved, I believe there is (1)the recurring threat by Capt PPRuNe (Danny) to close D&G because of the disproportionate amount of flak he receives - either by way of legal action, or from Oz/Enzed PPRuNer's who believe they have been unjustifiably censured. The latest case in point is obviously LAME, whom, as I think the majority of us are aware, has been banned for apparently sending Danny an inordinate amount of email directly to him.
As Danny points out in the Jet Blast forum, PPRuNe is NOT run as democracy.."after all, who gave you a vote.". Certainly it IS Danny's train set, and he let's US play with it, if we're careful and we play by his rules. However, each of US is also PART of that train set from which Danny gains his pleasure, and I'm sure that he (should that be He? ) does not enjoy removing one of his long time contributors (in this case LAME) unless he has good reason. Alternatively he may have just finished a sh!t of a trip with a cranky old Captain!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> and LAME happened to be the one who stuck his head up at the wrong time
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Agreed Gaunty, the behaviour of the Aussies and our Kiwi brothers is often FAR removed from the staid disposition of our British cousins. We don't feign partiality for something we don't like - something seen as "crude" perhaps by the Poms, Asians, and Europeans...expressions such as "Don't beat around the bush", and one of Gaunty's favourites, "Let's cut to the chase", sum Aussies (and N.Z'ers) up fairly well!
Personally I found LAME's post informative - sometimes voluminous - but generally innocuos and impartial.
That Danny found it necessary to ban LAME, AND (again) threaten to pull the D&G forum has spurred THIS topic.
Let's forget about comparing the merits or otherwise of various websites - I don't believe we've been told (yet) that we are permitted to frequent only one OR the other!
If we take a minute to look at WHY this discussion has evolved, I believe there is (1)the recurring threat by Capt PPRuNe (Danny) to close D&G because of the disproportionate amount of flak he receives - either by way of legal action, or from Oz/Enzed PPRuNer's who believe they have been unjustifiably censured. The latest case in point is obviously LAME, whom, as I think the majority of us are aware, has been banned for apparently sending Danny an inordinate amount of email directly to him.
As Danny points out in the Jet Blast forum, PPRuNe is NOT run as democracy.."after all, who gave you a vote.". Certainly it IS Danny's train set, and he let's US play with it, if we're careful and we play by his rules. However, each of US is also PART of that train set from which Danny gains his pleasure, and I'm sure that he (should that be He?
) does not enjoy removing one of his long time contributors (in this case LAME) unless he has good reason. Alternatively he may have just finished a sh!t of a trip with a cranky old Captain!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> and LAME happened to be the one who stuck his head up at the wrong time<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Agreed Gaunty, the behaviour of the Aussies and our Kiwi brothers is often FAR removed from the staid disposition of our British cousins. We don't feign partiality for something we don't like - something seen as "crude" perhaps by the Poms, Asians, and Europeans...expressions such as "Don't beat around the bush", and one of Gaunty's favourites,
"Let's cut to the chase", sum Aussies (and N.Z'ers) up fairly well!Personally I found LAME's post informative - sometimes voluminous - but generally innocuos and impartial.
That Danny found it necessary to ban LAME, AND (again) threaten to pull the D&G forum has spurred THIS topic.
Let's forget about comparing the merits or otherwise of various websites - I don't believe we've been told (yet) that we are permitted to frequent only one OR the other!
Join Date: Jan 1997
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Genuinely enjoying this thread and the thought it has provoked amongst you - I'd like to offer a few comments from the UK end.
First off PPRuNe isn't the bees knees - at some point something better will come along but we keep on working to improve the site.
Being in the UK provides some strengths and weaknesses depending on how you're feeling. We provide a lovely target for your vitriol (staid/whingeing/ anal/ colonistic/patronising Poms) but we'd argue that our total isolation from the OZ/NZ industry means we offer true impartiality when you war with each other and we have to step in.
It's also comforting to have us to there to advance the oft heard claim we simply don't understand the forthright, freespeaking culture you have.
Certainly makes you feel better but sadly that doesn't bear a moment's scrutiny as it is full blooded Australians who are offended by this forum and set the proven lawyers upon us at the Towers. Presently more than 90% of legal threats still come as the result of comments on the Australian industry.
Therefore the site has to be moderated - we know we can't win that one with you and have to take the flak as and when it comes. There will always be a percentage of you who disagree with any/all editing/deletions or bans.
We consider it better that you have open, named human beings like me and Danny to rail at . It doesn't offend us when you have a go at us because it helps keep the site healthy. Writing about anyone else though and you stick to the Ten Thingies.
Using this site isn't compulsary. We offer a world perspective that many of you find interesting and useful. There are already alternatives out there so I'd really hope there's one other person we can persuade to enter the debate.
Ultralights has done the hard work, he's got a site up and running. Here in the UK we'd be interested to read his thoughts on moderation versus staying out of court in terms of the content he finds on this forum.
Best Wishes to you for the New Year,
Rob Lloyd
First off PPRuNe isn't the bees knees - at some point something better will come along but we keep on working to improve the site.
Being in the UK provides some strengths and weaknesses depending on how you're feeling. We provide a lovely target for your vitriol (staid/whingeing/ anal/ colonistic/patronising Poms) but we'd argue that our total isolation from the OZ/NZ industry means we offer true impartiality when you war with each other and we have to step in.
It's also comforting to have us to there to advance the oft heard claim we simply don't understand the forthright, freespeaking culture you have.
Certainly makes you feel better but sadly that doesn't bear a moment's scrutiny as it is full blooded Australians who are offended by this forum and set the proven lawyers upon us at the Towers. Presently more than 90% of legal threats still come as the result of comments on the Australian industry.
Therefore the site has to be moderated - we know we can't win that one with you and have to take the flak as and when it comes. There will always be a percentage of you who disagree with any/all editing/deletions or bans.
We consider it better that you have open, named human beings like me and Danny to rail at . It doesn't offend us when you have a go at us because it helps keep the site healthy. Writing about anyone else though and you stick to the Ten Thingies.
Using this site isn't compulsary. We offer a world perspective that many of you find interesting and useful. There are already alternatives out there so I'd really hope there's one other person we can persuade to enter the debate.
Ultralights has done the hard work, he's got a site up and running. Here in the UK we'd be interested to read his thoughts on moderation versus staying out of court in terms of the content he finds on this forum.
Best Wishes to you for the New Year,
Rob Lloyd
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
I would like to add to Robins comments above.
There seems to be a misconception that this forum is there for anybody from Dunnunda to post topics on anthing they want to air. WRONG! This forum is for discussion of professional aviation issues that affect those of you dunnunda.
Too many people have assumed that this is a free speech forum where they can mouth off about anything that irrespective of the subject matter or content. THis is not a forum for Ozmates or Kiwis to rant on about their xenophobic beliefs or private pilots to discuss the best place to buy cheap 100LL or for spotters to go on about their latest 'spot'.
This forum is for topics that are about professional aviation down under (from the rest of the worlds perspective) and as long as those of you who have the intellectual capacity to understand this you are more than welcome to participate. For too long many people have assumed that because they are living in Australia or New Zealand and have an interest in professional aviation they can spout off on anything and everything.
This is not a recreational flying forum. It is not a spotters forum. It is not free speech for pilots forum. It is not a computer virus forum. It is not a political discussion forum. Too many people have the misconception that they can use this to post jokes or greetings or to slag off others without comeback. Well, the time has come to start drumming the idea home that this is a professional aviation forum for issues that affect Australian and New Zealand.
As for those of you lamenting about lame and his little band of followers, I will only state this one more time. I banned lame because he has for years tried to dictate to me and the moderators what should and should not be allowed on this and other forums. Whenever we decided to put a stop to his persistent whingeing he would threaten to leave PPRuNe only to reappear within hours. After the last episode I decided to help him on his way and gave him 'cold turkey'. The fact that he would spam my and the moderators mail with one line whinges and dictats didn't help his cause either.
As for the rest of you who want an unmoderated forum then I am prepared to set up a membership only forum for that purpose. Because it would have to be member only that takes time and effort and so a fee will be charged. In the past I have found that I can cover my costs for server space & bandwidth as well as my personal time to set each person up for a cost of about AUS$30 a year. Experience also tells me that 99% of those who have the most to say are too tight to put their money where their mouth is so it will probably never come to pass.
If someone sets up a seperate bulletin board for their fix of rant and anarchy then good luck to them. Just remember that it took me many years to get this website recognised and because of its present success I will not allow any free advertising of this new site. You will have to do it the hard way just like I did and get the search engines to recognise it or wait for your mates to email you the address. Of course you can pay the standard fee for a banner advert which will link to it but then we come back to the tight fisted response of those with a lot to say but sod all to back it up. Not one Australian enterprise has ever paid for an advert that would have gone to supporting the cost of running this forum. It takes money to run a website of this size and I am not about to give up all my and my friends' hard work that made it what it is today just because a few people can't get to grips with the fact that this is a professional aviation forum for those professional aviation issues down under.
Not too difficult to grasp but obviously way beyond a few individuals comprehension. To the rest of you I hope you have a prosperous new year and are able to adapt to the real concept of this forum.
[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
There seems to be a misconception that this forum is there for anybody from Dunnunda to post topics on anthing they want to air. WRONG! This forum is for discussion of professional aviation issues that affect those of you dunnunda.
Too many people have assumed that this is a free speech forum where they can mouth off about anything that irrespective of the subject matter or content. THis is not a forum for Ozmates or Kiwis to rant on about their xenophobic beliefs or private pilots to discuss the best place to buy cheap 100LL or for spotters to go on about their latest 'spot'.
This forum is for topics that are about professional aviation down under (from the rest of the worlds perspective) and as long as those of you who have the intellectual capacity to understand this you are more than welcome to participate. For too long many people have assumed that because they are living in Australia or New Zealand and have an interest in professional aviation they can spout off on anything and everything.
This is not a recreational flying forum. It is not a spotters forum. It is not free speech for pilots forum. It is not a computer virus forum. It is not a political discussion forum. Too many people have the misconception that they can use this to post jokes or greetings or to slag off others without comeback. Well, the time has come to start drumming the idea home that this is a professional aviation forum for issues that affect Australian and New Zealand.
As for those of you lamenting about lame and his little band of followers, I will only state this one more time. I banned lame because he has for years tried to dictate to me and the moderators what should and should not be allowed on this and other forums. Whenever we decided to put a stop to his persistent whingeing he would threaten to leave PPRuNe only to reappear within hours. After the last episode I decided to help him on his way and gave him 'cold turkey'. The fact that he would spam my and the moderators mail with one line whinges and dictats didn't help his cause either.
As for the rest of you who want an unmoderated forum then I am prepared to set up a membership only forum for that purpose. Because it would have to be member only that takes time and effort and so a fee will be charged. In the past I have found that I can cover my costs for server space & bandwidth as well as my personal time to set each person up for a cost of about AUS$30 a year. Experience also tells me that 99% of those who have the most to say are too tight to put their money where their mouth is so it will probably never come to pass.
If someone sets up a seperate bulletin board for their fix of rant and anarchy then good luck to them. Just remember that it took me many years to get this website recognised and because of its present success I will not allow any free advertising of this new site. You will have to do it the hard way just like I did and get the search engines to recognise it or wait for your mates to email you the address. Of course you can pay the standard fee for a banner advert which will link to it but then we come back to the tight fisted response of those with a lot to say but sod all to back it up. Not one Australian enterprise has ever paid for an advert that would have gone to supporting the cost of running this forum. It takes money to run a website of this size and I am not about to give up all my and my friends' hard work that made it what it is today just because a few people can't get to grips with the fact that this is a professional aviation forum for those professional aviation issues down under.
Not too difficult to grasp but obviously way beyond a few individuals comprehension. To the rest of you I hope you have a prosperous new year and are able to adapt to the real concept of this forum.
[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
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Sorry to disagree Prunehead, my short time in this industry has shown me that it runs on rumours and because we are professionals we don't let out confidential information, rather it is sent out as rumour, more often than not true.
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As I am learning, people need something to bitch about, although it's pretty sad when you need to bitch about pprune.
Alot on pprune is BS, why, BS ers put it there. But it is a also quite informative if you can work out who these are.
People come here hidden in a cloud of aninimity, and try to pose ( a nice word for BS ), to those of you whinging about the moderator trying to trim some general crap, of which I am also guilty of putting there, good on him/her.
This is still the best avenue for asking questions, I personally specialise in the stupid ones, and they are all answered by all the other happy ppruners, so to the boat rockers, close the door on your way out, good job Woomera.
Alot on pprune is BS, why, BS ers put it there. But it is a also quite informative if you can work out who these are.
People come here hidden in a cloud of aninimity, and try to pose ( a nice word for BS ), to those of you whinging about the moderator trying to trim some general crap, of which I am also guilty of putting there, good on him/her.
This is still the best avenue for asking questions, I personally specialise in the stupid ones, and they are all answered by all the other happy ppruners, so to the boat rockers, close the door on your way out, good job Woomera.
PPRuNeaholic
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As one who has had occasion to fall foul of the rules, I'm (still) here to say that I've learned from those instances. My initial feeling about this place was that it was like participating in discussions at the bar of the local aero club. It initially saddened me to reach the revelation that this analogy was well wide of the mark.
Not to say I won't make a further faux pas or two in the future, but at least I know there's quite a high degree of tolerance exercised by admins and moderators. It really saddens me that lame went that bit too far, but because of my own experiences on the receiving end of a tongue lashing, I believe he became his own worst enemy.
I also believe that, if D+G dies, it will only be because we have all become our own worst enemies. We've been heading down that track for quite a while now and we're the only ones who can reverse the course. Let's all recognise that old bit of discretion about VFR flight into deteriorating wx and do a 180 now, before we crash, burn and die.
Not to say I won't make a further faux pas or two in the future, but at least I know there's quite a high degree of tolerance exercised by admins and moderators. It really saddens me that lame went that bit too far, but because of my own experiences on the receiving end of a tongue lashing, I believe he became his own worst enemy.
I also believe that, if D+G dies, it will only be because we have all become our own worst enemies. We've been heading down that track for quite a while now and we're the only ones who can reverse the course. Let's all recognise that old bit of discretion about VFR flight into deteriorating wx and do a 180 now, before we crash, burn and die.
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I feel much the same way as Oz put into words. I've made quite a number of mistakes, and been on the recieving end (quite deservedly so, too) of the retribution dished out back to me. I've also been lucky enough to have benefitted from the BB as well re: hour building. I've also tried to help others with any info that I had to share when asked and felt genuinely gratified when someone else may have benefitted from the work of others that I had to share. I'm going to reveal who that person "was" in the next post.......
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Well now you know. I'm sorry everyone that I am now finding it difficult to find the spare time anymore to keep the work going. I'd like to extend a very warm "thank-you" to all of you (you all know just who you all are), for taking the time to help me put all of that info together for everyone elses benefit. I started these "whispers" thingies after I emailed the Towers one night after scoring some work directly through these very pages you all read. Rob asked me to return the favour, perhaps in a way that would be as of a supplement to Windy's work, and he came-up with the idea.
I'm sorry, once again that I have found it too difficult to continue what I am doing (the edition that was to appear this month was lost in the deletion of pvt messages), mainly due to other commitments that I have right now.
Thank-you one and all for your support though the past six months. W's, I dunno just how you do it, but the very best of luck to you.
Dave.
I'm sorry, once again that I have found it too difficult to continue what I am doing (the edition that was to appear this month was lost in the deletion of pvt messages), mainly due to other commitments that I have right now.
Thank-you one and all for your support though the past six months. W's, I dunno just how you do it, but the very best of luck to you.
Dave.
