BYE BYE VIRGIN BLUE! HELLO ANSETT
Evertonian
Gaunty.
WRT FF. These programs were also called "Loyalty programs" and as such, I'm wondering why it was never a 2 way street. I got sick & tired of the AR$E kissing that went on in the GW lounge. The abuse & derision that was heaped upon staff was enough to make at least one guy jump the counter that I've seen. Anyway, I know & understand the reliability problems that AN had in the last few years & how this was a "broken promise" of service delivery, but, doesn't the loyalty part entitle AN to some support? For your friend, he got many upgrades & friends into the lounge, I imagine, over the years, all for his loyalty to AN. Now FLEW have offered some deal to members re their points, I wonder if the majority will return the favour & support AN.
No, I'm not naive, but it was your point that made me think that perhaps my opinion of GW & FF members was right all along. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
WRT FF. These programs were also called "Loyalty programs" and as such, I'm wondering why it was never a 2 way street. I got sick & tired of the AR$E kissing that went on in the GW lounge. The abuse & derision that was heaped upon staff was enough to make at least one guy jump the counter that I've seen. Anyway, I know & understand the reliability problems that AN had in the last few years & how this was a "broken promise" of service delivery, but, doesn't the loyalty part entitle AN to some support? For your friend, he got many upgrades & friends into the lounge, I imagine, over the years, all for his loyalty to AN. Now FLEW have offered some deal to members re their points, I wonder if the majority will return the favour & support AN.
No, I'm not naive, but it was your point that made me think that perhaps my opinion of GW & FF members was right all along. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Hey all, To those away from home or doing it tough with out work from the collapsed regionals I aplogise for this. But guess what i got up yesterday had my australian produced breakfast, Didnt need Dads wool jumper though. i then got to fly a nice red 737 with a 89er Training Captain who was a true gentleman. When we landed we used a aerobridge, then had a look at the new 800 with winglets. I then signed off and got home to a nice dozen bottles of wine thanks to VB.I really hope that all of you OS get to come home soon because its bloody great to fly with people who have put the yards in. and before you wingers get going, yes its my first jet, yes I am ex regional, yes I have worked on 15 different twins/turboprops in GA and after 10 years of yakka I am chuffed as ----k. But not once have I ever put a resume in with Ansett or Qantas i have to many good freinds ex 89 for that. what goes around comes around.
So go Virgin blue
So go Virgin blue
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Way off the mark chimbu. Suggest you reread the posts of QDuck and others and then maybe you'll note the threatening and divisive tone of these posts and the direction in which some would like to drive this industry. Thats what I'm warning about. If you can't see that, too bad.
Further more Australian pilots should be insulted by your tone and insinuations. Why are you so special?
To say that you are worth more as a pilot (higher NET that anyone can earn in Oz) just because your basing is in a different country is demeaning.
A professional pilot is just that regardless of where they work or what they fly. If you reckon your worth it then so are they.
The actions of pilots during the next 12months will have long term industrial consequences for the entire aviation industry in Australia. Sell your soul to the devil now and he (or she) sure won't give it back later. This will effect the next generation of aircrew just as '89 did for so long and still does!!!!!
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: radnav ]</p>
Further more Australian pilots should be insulted by your tone and insinuations. Why are you so special?
To say that you are worth more as a pilot (higher NET that anyone can earn in Oz) just because your basing is in a different country is demeaning.
A professional pilot is just that regardless of where they work or what they fly. If you reckon your worth it then so are they.
The actions of pilots during the next 12months will have long term industrial consequences for the entire aviation industry in Australia. Sell your soul to the devil now and he (or she) sure won't give it back later. This will effect the next generation of aircrew just as '89 did for so long and still does!!!!!
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: radnav ]</p>
Grandpa Aerotart
Well I went back and read every post including my own.
Qduck didn't say pilots should be paid 38K as jet Captain he said if he was he wouldn't be worse off than he is now. That was my perception of his intent, you're welcome to yours. While he may be a little emotional I think you're paranoid.
Where did I say I was 'worth more'?
Where did I say 'higher net than anyone can earn in oz'?
Just to fill in the gaps for you radnav I am paid about the same gross as I would be line flying the same aircraft in say the USA or OZ.
I just don't have an onerous tax burden like Australia.
Am I 'special'? Nope.
Lucky to be in the right place at the right time with the right contacts and the right experience?
YUP.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree lest this thread be hijacked and turn into a slanging match.
I think you're a tosser and you think I'm wrong/can't read or whatever....fair enough!
Chuck.
PS VH registered aircraft so I'm not taking a job from a local either!
PPS If you said the way some beancounters want to drive this industry we MIGHT have a point of agreement.
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]</p>
Qduck didn't say pilots should be paid 38K as jet Captain he said if he was he wouldn't be worse off than he is now. That was my perception of his intent, you're welcome to yours. While he may be a little emotional I think you're paranoid.
Where did I say I was 'worth more'?
Where did I say 'higher net than anyone can earn in oz'?
Just to fill in the gaps for you radnav I am paid about the same gross as I would be line flying the same aircraft in say the USA or OZ.
I just don't have an onerous tax burden like Australia.
Am I 'special'? Nope.
Lucky to be in the right place at the right time with the right contacts and the right experience?
YUP.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree lest this thread be hijacked and turn into a slanging match.
I think you're a tosser and you think I'm wrong/can't read or whatever....fair enough!
Chuck.
PS VH registered aircraft so I'm not taking a job from a local either!
PPS If you said the way some beancounters want to drive this industry we MIGHT have a point of agreement.
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]</p>
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Pedota
I do not doubt for a moment that what you say about QFs behaviour re the way they are treating corporate accounts is true.
It is ever thus, that us humans seem to be the only sentient beings on this planet, who know how to pluck victory from the jaws of defeat.
It is this very characteristic that seems to drive the capitalist system.
The history of business and civilisation as we know it, is littered with the corpses of those who were not able to recognise the dangers of hubris.
Were it not so then we would be the subjects of corporations formed millenia ago. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
QF are no more or less subject to this immutable law of the universe. It just remains to be seen in millennial terms, just how long they will be players.
Thats the real wild card, not who can fly or maintain the best.
I do not doubt for a moment that what you say about QFs behaviour re the way they are treating corporate accounts is true.
It is ever thus, that us humans seem to be the only sentient beings on this planet, who know how to pluck victory from the jaws of defeat.
It is this very characteristic that seems to drive the capitalist system.
The history of business and civilisation as we know it, is littered with the corpses of those who were not able to recognise the dangers of hubris.
Were it not so then we would be the subjects of corporations formed millenia ago. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
QF are no more or less subject to this immutable law of the universe. It just remains to be seen in millennial terms, just how long they will be players.
Thats the real wild card, not who can fly or maintain the best.
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Chimbu,
me paranoid! You bet! Mixed in with a healthy dose of scepticism etc etc. Keeps me alive.
Whose got all the answers? Not me.
Agree to disagree. You Bet.
Done Deal!
PS Pardon me if I don't insult you back.
"To Infinity and Beyond"
me paranoid! You bet! Mixed in with a healthy dose of scepticism etc etc. Keeps me alive.
Whose got all the answers? Not me.
Agree to disagree. You Bet.
Done Deal!
PS Pardon me if I don't insult you back.
"To Infinity and Beyond"
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Here I go quoting radvav yet again, (20 Dec, 12:03):
[quote]
The actions of pilots during the next 12months will have long term industrial consequences for the entire aviation industry in Australia. Sell your soul to the devil now and he (or she) sure won't give it back later. <hr></blockquote>
I have to admit it, radnav. I can't disagree with a word you've said there.
But....
...why is it that I suspect you and I are pointing the accusing finger at two very different groups of people when the phrase 'selling your soul to the devil' is mentioned? It's going to take a very long time to re-establish any sort of fair and equitable status for pilots within Australia, thanks almost totally to those who 'sold their souls to the devil' for the proverbial thirty pieces of silver twelve years ago.
[quote]
The actions of pilots during the next 12months will have long term industrial consequences for the entire aviation industry in Australia. Sell your soul to the devil now and he (or she) sure won't give it back later. <hr></blockquote>
I have to admit it, radnav. I can't disagree with a word you've said there.
But....
...why is it that I suspect you and I are pointing the accusing finger at two very different groups of people when the phrase 'selling your soul to the devil' is mentioned? It's going to take a very long time to re-establish any sort of fair and equitable status for pilots within Australia, thanks almost totally to those who 'sold their souls to the devil' for the proverbial thirty pieces of silver twelve years ago.
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Thanks for your comments Guanty . . . I guess you’re right and it’s just the way it is.
Back to the original topic . . . I had the pleasure of travelling VB to Perth on December 9th (inaugural flight) and return on December 15th. VB is a great airline already – great prices, great planes, great service. It appeared to work well for all the punters on both flights. They booked their seats, fronted up at the airport, got on a plane and arrived at their destination. No fuss, no hassle . . . just another flight. And there is a palpable sense of teamwork amongst ALL the staff.
I took the trouble of writing to Virgin to tell them how good I thought it was. IMHO, AN has some work to do if they are to effectively compete against VB, although I wish them every success in world.
Happy Christmas all.
Back to the original topic . . . I had the pleasure of travelling VB to Perth on December 9th (inaugural flight) and return on December 15th. VB is a great airline already – great prices, great planes, great service. It appeared to work well for all the punters on both flights. They booked their seats, fronted up at the airport, got on a plane and arrived at their destination. No fuss, no hassle . . . just another flight. And there is a palpable sense of teamwork amongst ALL the staff.
I took the trouble of writing to Virgin to tell them how good I thought it was. IMHO, AN has some work to do if they are to effectively compete against VB, although I wish them every success in world.
Happy Christmas all.
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Pedota
That's the measure isn't it "great flight ....etc, etc."
"no hassles" "palpable sense of temawork" "just another flight"
So so simple, but the hardest thing in the world to achieve AND maintain.
One wonders whether the AN staff who are going back will be able to make the "reboot to the factory default settings" that will be necessary.
I hope so because then we will, for the first time in Australian aviation history a truly competitive system.
That's the measure isn't it "great flight ....etc, etc."
"no hassles" "palpable sense of temawork" "just another flight"
So so simple, but the hardest thing in the world to achieve AND maintain.
One wonders whether the AN staff who are going back will be able to make the "reboot to the factory default settings" that will be necessary.
I hope so because then we will, for the first time in Australian aviation history a truly competitive system.
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Ansett will not survive.If it could'nt turn a profit in the last 10 years with a 40% market share,then someone tell me how it will perform with a forecast 20%.It is up against a very aggresive QF.
Geoff Dixon said he would envisage QF with 70-80
per cent of the market,CRAP,he wants it all.Why on earth would QF hand 20% back to Ansett without a fight,why work for a duopoly when you have a monoply?.
Qantas have the capacity,the custom and all the good will,someone tell me what Ansett have?
Geoff Dixon said he would envisage QF with 70-80
per cent of the market,CRAP,he wants it all.Why on earth would QF hand 20% back to Ansett without a fight,why work for a duopoly when you have a monoply?.
Qantas have the capacity,the custom and all the good will,someone tell me what Ansett have?
Grandpa Aerotart
Loco I think the difference this time will be,
1/. No asset stripping.
2/. Good management.
3/. 1/2 the employees being 50% more productive for the same money.
Go VB and AN
Chuck.
Oh go on Rad.....I'll feel left out <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]</p>
1/. No asset stripping.
2/. Good management.
3/. 1/2 the employees being 50% more productive for the same money.
Go VB and AN
Chuck.
Oh go on Rad.....I'll feel left out <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]</p>
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LAME,surely you jest.If any thing that needs to be "taken out and shot" ,then it is the ACCC and the nonsense of competition policy.I cringe every time Alan Fels is on the telly rabbiting on about
competition and what they are doing to keep us from paying exhorbitant fares.Meanwhile,in the real world,airlines are going broke, people are losing their jobs and we end up with one carrier.It is time for people like Fels,to get their **** out of academia,and into the real world with the rest of us.
competition and what they are doing to keep us from paying exhorbitant fares.Meanwhile,in the real world,airlines are going broke, people are losing their jobs and we end up with one carrier.It is time for people like Fels,to get their **** out of academia,and into the real world with the rest of us.
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standupandridehim!
I think you've been a bit close to those sheep on your Dad's property. Your nationalistic sentiments are about as naive as you can get but each to their own. I had a good laugh anyway. As for not applying to AN and Qantas because of 89 which had nothing to do with you then you really need your head read. Perhaps you dont have the minimum requirements (getting warm?) Glad you enjoy flying with the 89er so much at VB. Next time you fly with him ask him about the other guys job he took when he went overseas and now that he's made his money he's happy to come back to OZ and ruin your wages as an airline pilot by working for peanuts all of which doesn't bother him in the slightest as he's probably never had a thought for anyone except himself in his life. VB are history and when they go down I'll be the first one to open a bottle to celebrate and you'll go down with them, enjoy the ride.
I think you've been a bit close to those sheep on your Dad's property. Your nationalistic sentiments are about as naive as you can get but each to their own. I had a good laugh anyway. As for not applying to AN and Qantas because of 89 which had nothing to do with you then you really need your head read. Perhaps you dont have the minimum requirements (getting warm?) Glad you enjoy flying with the 89er so much at VB. Next time you fly with him ask him about the other guys job he took when he went overseas and now that he's made his money he's happy to come back to OZ and ruin your wages as an airline pilot by working for peanuts all of which doesn't bother him in the slightest as he's probably never had a thought for anyone except himself in his life. VB are history and when they go down I'll be the first one to open a bottle to celebrate and you'll go down with them, enjoy the ride.
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Alpha41
Have you spoken to your DAME about some SSRIs perhaps, you might find that they will return your previously sunny personality to something that other people remember and have enjoyed.
You will no longer find the urge to pluck the wings off flies, tell little kiddies that Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny aren't real and to celebrate others misfortunes with champagne, irresistable.
I can't imagine why anybody at QF would feel sufficiently threatened so I must assume that you are an AN hopeful.
If that is so, then if there are likeminded others there, then any hope they may have had is looking pretty grim.
You are going to need all the strength and goodwill in your possesion to get and stay going, squandering it on playing the man instead of the market will gaurantee that AN wont.
The greatest danger for AN is not their competition but the marketing attitude they take and their own staff and the way they are being chosen.
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]</p>
Have you spoken to your DAME about some SSRIs perhaps, you might find that they will return your previously sunny personality to something that other people remember and have enjoyed.
You will no longer find the urge to pluck the wings off flies, tell little kiddies that Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny aren't real and to celebrate others misfortunes with champagne, irresistable.
I can't imagine why anybody at QF would feel sufficiently threatened so I must assume that you are an AN hopeful.
If that is so, then if there are likeminded others there, then any hope they may have had is looking pretty grim.
You are going to need all the strength and goodwill in your possesion to get and stay going, squandering it on playing the man instead of the market will gaurantee that AN wont.
The greatest danger for AN is not their competition but the marketing attitude they take and their own staff and the way they are being chosen.
[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]</p>
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I don't know if any of you have walked through an Ansett terminal recently.There is tumbleweed blowing through the foyer.How do you change that overnight,you don't.Unless AN II can offer something QF and Virgin can't then the future is bleak.The productivity bonus they will get from the staff is only effective on a long term basis,in the interim they will be using an awful lot of cash,just like those before them.
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Regarding Pedota's comments about QF not treating corporate clients very well,nothing has changed!
I have a lot of friends in the corporate world and a very good mate who owns a VERY large corporate travel agency.(multi millions!)
They all ask me the same thing. "Doesn't QANTAS want our business?"
It seems that the QF corporate accounts people have NO idea how to treat these people and are excellent at *issing people off to the point where they go elsehere.
Now that QF have many of these accounts again through AN's misfortune (temporarily it seems) I hope they wake up to themselves and keep a few.
My travel agent mate's business was about 80/20 QF/AN until about 18 months ago and he was wooed by AN (not hard considering QF's efforts or lack of same) to the point where he was 80/20 AN/QF!!!
Let's hope the corporate accounts people at QF have lifted their game!
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I have a lot of friends in the corporate world and a very good mate who owns a VERY large corporate travel agency.(multi millions!)
They all ask me the same thing. "Doesn't QANTAS want our business?"
It seems that the QF corporate accounts people have NO idea how to treat these people and are excellent at *issing people off to the point where they go elsehere.
Now that QF have many of these accounts again through AN's misfortune (temporarily it seems) I hope they wake up to themselves and keep a few.
My travel agent mate's business was about 80/20 QF/AN until about 18 months ago and he was wooed by AN (not hard considering QF's efforts or lack of same) to the point where he was 80/20 AN/QF!!!
Let's hope the corporate accounts people at QF have lifted their game!
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Evertonian
Loco bloko...just a point of order. AN made approx $170million just a few years ago under Eddington, sure it was slash n burn, but still a profit.
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[B]LOCO SMOKO[/B
What is it that people like you don't understand about Ansett at the moment.
Ansett2 is not being run like Ansett1.At the moment it is being run solely by a couple of accountants who have little knowledge about runing an Airline and indeed have little desire to further this limited knowledge.
Their aim at the moment is to present an operating Airline to attract a purchaser at the highest possible price and to keep some expertise till the transaction takes place by giving part time employment to thousands of thankful people(which incidently keeps them off the dole queue).You will have noticed that there is NO fanfare associated with Ansett at the moment.It is truly a basic service in all accounts hence the lack of passangers,as you have pointed out.
I would have thoght anyone with any knowledge of the industry would have realised this.
Now MR Loco, the acid test will be if you can make the same comments in a year or so's time,when the Airline has been properly run with all the marketing and service tools in place.
I Bet not!!
What is it that people like you don't understand about Ansett at the moment.
Ansett2 is not being run like Ansett1.At the moment it is being run solely by a couple of accountants who have little knowledge about runing an Airline and indeed have little desire to further this limited knowledge.
Their aim at the moment is to present an operating Airline to attract a purchaser at the highest possible price and to keep some expertise till the transaction takes place by giving part time employment to thousands of thankful people(which incidently keeps them off the dole queue).You will have noticed that there is NO fanfare associated with Ansett at the moment.It is truly a basic service in all accounts hence the lack of passangers,as you have pointed out.
I would have thoght anyone with any knowledge of the industry would have realised this.
Now MR Loco, the acid test will be if you can make the same comments in a year or so's time,when the Airline has been properly run with all the marketing and service tools in place.
I Bet not!!