BYE BYE VIRGIN BLUE! HELLO ANSETT
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FSU,
Like you, I wish no ill on VB. I have many friends there, some joining as recently as a month ago.
However, I think that survival for them is looking less likely by the day, as I don't believe there is room for three.
I hope I'm completely wrong though.
Like you, I wish no ill on VB. I have many friends there, some joining as recently as a month ago.
However, I think that survival for them is looking less likely by the day, as I don't believe there is room for three.
I hope I'm completely wrong though.
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I think you are all getting a little excited about Ansett becoming another major player.I am yet to see any of the glossy new aeroplanes that will plough the skies.From my understanding they are still losing money hand over fist,their current loads are disgraceful and to add insult to injury Virgin have some of that market that Ansett will have to claw black.So to stick your head in the sand and exclaim blindly that Ansett are the next "player",seems a little naive.
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Is it so inconcievable that Virgin might survive given that while Ansett was around last time VB operated to an $? million audited profit to the beginning of Sept01 <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
A bit early to be writing them off, but you guys can still dream
A bit early to be writing them off, but you guys can still dream
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I'm afraid it doesn't matter what anyone of us thinks about who will or will not survive this turmoil. It also doesn't matter how many moneybags they bring over from other countries. The only people who will decide what airlines will or won't survive is the ordinary travelling public. Mr and mrs Joe Ordinary who save all year to go on their holidays or businessmen who need to get to a meeting on time. Who are they going to fly with? Someone who they know will get them there reliably and not leave them stranded at an airport somewhere.
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Gentlemen,
I'm curious to find out how much is the pay for
Ansett,VB,QF etc just for comparison sake.I'm currently PIC for 737-400 and earning approx.A$78k
annually,is it low or high by OZ standard?
I'll appreciate if someone can tell me this if
possible fleet by fleet.Thanks <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I'm curious to find out how much is the pay for
Ansett,VB,QF etc just for comparison sake.I'm currently PIC for 737-400 and earning approx.A$78k
annually,is it low or high by OZ standard?
I'll appreciate if someone can tell me this if
possible fleet by fleet.Thanks <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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Qducky,
if indeed you are a pilot, then your present attitude is just part of the problem that lies ahead in Australian aviation, certainly not part of the solution.
Do you think others have not had their fair share of bad luck in this industry?
Stop feeling sorry for yourself and plotting how you can help ruin the future of aviation in Australia for everyone else.
BTW I and many others could offer to fly a 767 for lets say, $25000pa, would that make you happy!
Is that what pilots want for themselves!
Wake Up!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
if indeed you are a pilot, then your present attitude is just part of the problem that lies ahead in Australian aviation, certainly not part of the solution.
Do you think others have not had their fair share of bad luck in this industry?
Stop feeling sorry for yourself and plotting how you can help ruin the future of aviation in Australia for everyone else.
BTW I and many others could offer to fly a 767 for lets say, $25000pa, would that make you happy!
Is that what pilots want for themselves!
Wake Up!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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Virgin will be around for the long haul. They are getting new aircraft and are still recruiting. No worry to them if Ansett does or does not get going again.
IF (and it's a BIG IF!) Ansett can get back into the industry it will be sharing the market with Virgin. Neither of these two players will get much bigger than 30 aircraft each. That should give them a market share of about 40%. To keep QF honest,they will have to strike up some form of "marketing" agreement. If Ansett try to put Virgin out of business it is them who will fail.
Remember it was Virgin who came on the scene with a new product that has proven popular with the Australian public. It is Virgin who have been in business ever since it started and it is Ansett who must try and win back their once loyal passengers who have now joined up with Virgin.
This will be the biggest and most difficult challenge Ansett will have if they get going on the 31st.
The travelling public will be better off with the Big white Rat being kept honest by Virgin and Ansett.
There will never be two major airlines in this country again. The best we can hope for is the above scenario or at worse - QF with 70 - 80% of the market and someone else providing a token no frills, backpacker service on major routes.
IF (and it's a BIG IF!) Ansett can get back into the industry it will be sharing the market with Virgin. Neither of these two players will get much bigger than 30 aircraft each. That should give them a market share of about 40%. To keep QF honest,they will have to strike up some form of "marketing" agreement. If Ansett try to put Virgin out of business it is them who will fail.
Remember it was Virgin who came on the scene with a new product that has proven popular with the Australian public. It is Virgin who have been in business ever since it started and it is Ansett who must try and win back their once loyal passengers who have now joined up with Virgin.
This will be the biggest and most difficult challenge Ansett will have if they get going on the 31st.
The travelling public will be better off with the Big white Rat being kept honest by Virgin and Ansett.
There will never be two major airlines in this country again. The best we can hope for is the above scenario or at worse - QF with 70 - 80% of the market and someone else providing a token no frills, backpacker service on major routes.
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We are all aware of VB's complaint about access to terminal gates. Previously I have noticed that Gate 38 in Brisbane was always unused. Why then did not VB utilise it?
Passing through Brisbane today I noticed a QF B717 pulling into Gate 38 so it must have been available to anyone willing to pay for it's use. Looks like QF have snatched it!
Passing through Brisbane today I noticed a QF B717 pulling into Gate 38 so it must have been available to anyone willing to pay for it's use. Looks like QF have snatched it!
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Wirraway speaks the truth about the matter and with Whiskerys comments probably sums it up very neatly.
Call me an AN basher if you will, but they, AN, do have an even harder row to hoe than Virgin did when they started.
Virgin came to the market with big expectations for the public which demonstrably, they have met.
Ansett are starting a long way behind that with a fair bit of lead in the saddlebags. You only had to travel on AN in the dying days to see that.
They will have to get the trust of the high yield pax back for the profits they talk about to materialise and whilst QF are loving ANs former corporate accounts to death that will be very hard, so they will have to discount really deep to them and there goes the yield.
Close friend of mine had a Lifetime Golden Wings membership for over 15 years and more FFs (First/Business Class) than HE could spend in a lifetime, so one or more of his family were able to travel with him in the same class on the longer business trips local and OS from time to time. This was important keeping the family together. He is QF now and will never come back and his QF FF account is rapidly approaching the point where he can start the routine again. He is very influential in an industry that uses airlines like taxis and you can be sure he is not a happy camper. But we've been all through that before.
The entry of the new players hasn't been met with enthusiasm by those flyers who have travelled on their airlines. Those flyers being the very frequently travelled and who meet each other in the various "lounges" around the world. You can bet what one of the topics of conversation is about.
So these two may be perceived as players/saviours of some flavour by FLEW but they will have to convince the FFs who provide that premium income.
It will an interesting play, the opening act hasn't yet finished.
standupanddrivehim
Liked your Oz thingy post.
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]</p>
Call me an AN basher if you will, but they, AN, do have an even harder row to hoe than Virgin did when they started.
Virgin came to the market with big expectations for the public which demonstrably, they have met.
Ansett are starting a long way behind that with a fair bit of lead in the saddlebags. You only had to travel on AN in the dying days to see that.
They will have to get the trust of the high yield pax back for the profits they talk about to materialise and whilst QF are loving ANs former corporate accounts to death that will be very hard, so they will have to discount really deep to them and there goes the yield.
Close friend of mine had a Lifetime Golden Wings membership for over 15 years and more FFs (First/Business Class) than HE could spend in a lifetime, so one or more of his family were able to travel with him in the same class on the longer business trips local and OS from time to time. This was important keeping the family together. He is QF now and will never come back and his QF FF account is rapidly approaching the point where he can start the routine again. He is very influential in an industry that uses airlines like taxis and you can be sure he is not a happy camper. But we've been all through that before.
The entry of the new players hasn't been met with enthusiasm by those flyers who have travelled on their airlines. Those flyers being the very frequently travelled and who meet each other in the various "lounges" around the world. You can bet what one of the topics of conversation is about.
So these two may be perceived as players/saviours of some flavour by FLEW but they will have to convince the FFs who provide that premium income.
It will an interesting play, the opening act hasn't yet finished.
standupanddrivehim
Liked your Oz thingy post.
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]</p>
Grandpa Aerotart
Whiskery couldn't agree more.
What is so unpalatable to some of you about QF with 50-60% and VB/AN sharing the rest fairly evenly? Wasn't VB's gaol something like 8% of the domestic market? I would've thought they'd be going spastic at the thought of 20% being handed them on a plate?
Or since AN's demise as a 40% market share holder has corporate greed kicked in and now it's fare wars for all or nothing?
As far as safety is concerned I have very good mates and personal aquaintences high up at each of VB and QF Link + a few good mates scattered around QF mainline and AN(probably still). These guys are without exception highly experienced and very professional jet pilots.
Some are 89ers some are not, and guess what all those doomsayers of this industry? They don't sit around gnashing their teeth and heaping scorn on each others outfits. Why? Because they too have mates that work at each and probably share beers while their respective children play together on a sunday afternoon!
I'm fairly convinced these days that the individuals like radnav and alpha 41 are just wannabees who think that they will not get their day in the sun making big bucks in shiny jets! They may very well not but it won't be because of the senior and experienced guys and girls who are currently trying to thread their way through the mine field of the aviation industry to some sort of enjoyable retirement!
Guess what kiddies, we have all been there and done that. You think you lot have it hard because you aren't being snapped up into the holy grail of aviation despite your 5 minutes of effort?
You've got 20 years of effort ahead before you can even approach the younger of us! So grow up!!!
If you think it's so damn terrible that guys and girls have spent a few years making relatively big bucks overseas before coming home to the only place on the face of the planet that they call home then risk your own arm and have a go, you may find it's not all beer and scittles after all in the expat world. Still I very much doubt the more vitriolic of you have the courage let alone the experience and skills to make it in the big bad world beyond the Bankstown training area.
Chuck <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
What is so unpalatable to some of you about QF with 50-60% and VB/AN sharing the rest fairly evenly? Wasn't VB's gaol something like 8% of the domestic market? I would've thought they'd be going spastic at the thought of 20% being handed them on a plate?
Or since AN's demise as a 40% market share holder has corporate greed kicked in and now it's fare wars for all or nothing?
As far as safety is concerned I have very good mates and personal aquaintences high up at each of VB and QF Link + a few good mates scattered around QF mainline and AN(probably still). These guys are without exception highly experienced and very professional jet pilots.
Some are 89ers some are not, and guess what all those doomsayers of this industry? They don't sit around gnashing their teeth and heaping scorn on each others outfits. Why? Because they too have mates that work at each and probably share beers while their respective children play together on a sunday afternoon!
I'm fairly convinced these days that the individuals like radnav and alpha 41 are just wannabees who think that they will not get their day in the sun making big bucks in shiny jets! They may very well not but it won't be because of the senior and experienced guys and girls who are currently trying to thread their way through the mine field of the aviation industry to some sort of enjoyable retirement!
Guess what kiddies, we have all been there and done that. You think you lot have it hard because you aren't being snapped up into the holy grail of aviation despite your 5 minutes of effort?
You've got 20 years of effort ahead before you can even approach the younger of us! So grow up!!!
If you think it's so damn terrible that guys and girls have spent a few years making relatively big bucks overseas before coming home to the only place on the face of the planet that they call home then risk your own arm and have a go, you may find it's not all beer and scittles after all in the expat world. Still I very much doubt the more vitriolic of you have the courage let alone the experience and skills to make it in the big bad world beyond the Bankstown training area.
Chuck <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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FSU,
I pass through BNE 3-4 times a day 5 days a week and VB are using gate 38 and at times gate 25. In fact they used gate 38 yesterday afternoon. It is now very common to see 4-5 VB aircraft on the ground at BNE, with 2-3 aircraft parked at the end of the centre finger and 1 on gate 25 or 38.
I pass through BNE 3-4 times a day 5 days a week and VB are using gate 38 and at times gate 25. In fact they used gate 38 yesterday afternoon. It is now very common to see 4-5 VB aircraft on the ground at BNE, with 2-3 aircraft parked at the end of the centre finger and 1 on gate 25 or 38.
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radnav, to quote you from your post of 19 Dec:
[quote]… Instead for they and the AFAP sold out pilots in Australia<hr></blockquote>
I can only assume that you are referring above to that 'disaffected' group that people like you love to call 'the 89ers'.
Then, on the 20th, you say to a man who's seen how tough it can be doing menial work to keep snags and three veg on the table, (as so many of the pilots you pillory in your quote above did for a very long time twelve years ago while 'heroes' [like yourself????] 'saved Australian Aviation'):
[quote] Qducky, if indeed you are a pilot, then your present attitude is just part of the problem that lies ahead in Australian aviation, certainly not part of the solution.<hr></blockquote>
It was Adolph Hitler who said that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will come to believe it. So can you tell me again who it was with "their own short-term, selfish agendas" who "sold out pilots in Australia"?
I have to agree that management have been happily exploiting the situation ever since, but the people who sold out pilots in Australia aren't the ones you're so quick to point the finger at. If you started work with (or re-joined) AN or TN twelve years ago, I'd suggest you need look no further than a mirror if you want to see where the blame for the current mess really lies.
I for one hope both Virgin Blue and the 'new' AN contine to fly.
[quote]… Instead for they and the AFAP sold out pilots in Australia<hr></blockquote>
I can only assume that you are referring above to that 'disaffected' group that people like you love to call 'the 89ers'.
Then, on the 20th, you say to a man who's seen how tough it can be doing menial work to keep snags and three veg on the table, (as so many of the pilots you pillory in your quote above did for a very long time twelve years ago while 'heroes' [like yourself????] 'saved Australian Aviation'):
[quote] Qducky, if indeed you are a pilot, then your present attitude is just part of the problem that lies ahead in Australian aviation, certainly not part of the solution.<hr></blockquote>
It was Adolph Hitler who said that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will come to believe it. So can you tell me again who it was with "their own short-term, selfish agendas" who "sold out pilots in Australia"?
I have to agree that management have been happily exploiting the situation ever since, but the people who sold out pilots in Australia aren't the ones you're so quick to point the finger at. If you started work with (or re-joined) AN or TN twelve years ago, I'd suggest you need look no further than a mirror if you want to see where the blame for the current mess really lies.
I for one hope both Virgin Blue and the 'new' AN contine to fly.
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Ummm hello Chimbu,
dare to ass-ume a little too much I feel dear chap.
Your use of the non sequitur(to quote,well... 'you know who') is outstanding.
It is both enlightening and heartening to come across such a caring, thoughtful individual whose concern for the future well-being of professional Australian pilots is so ahhh well _________ .I'll leave others to fill in the blank space.
No not the one in my head. Sorry if I beat you to that.
Watch your Six chaps! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
dare to ass-ume a little too much I feel dear chap.
Your use of the non sequitur(to quote,well... 'you know who') is outstanding.
It is both enlightening and heartening to come across such a caring, thoughtful individual whose concern for the future well-being of professional Australian pilots is so ahhh well _________ .I'll leave others to fill in the blank space.
No not the one in my head. Sorry if I beat you to that.
Watch your Six chaps! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Ouch fubaar,
now that one really did hurt. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
AFAP re: VB contract. However if you wish to widen the scope go ahead.
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: radnav ]</p>
now that one really did hurt. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
AFAP re: VB contract. However if you wish to widen the scope go ahead.
[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: radnav ]</p>
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F111,
OK, I have not been through Bris Airport for a while so it looks as if things have changed. Certainly in earlier times Gate 38 was almost always vacant and VB didn't seem to use it then but rather used stand off at the central finger. With both QF and VB using it Bris Airport Corp should be happy with the extra revenue.
OK, I have not been through Bris Airport for a while so it looks as if things have changed. Certainly in earlier times Gate 38 was almost always vacant and VB didn't seem to use it then but rather used stand off at the central finger. With both QF and VB using it Bris Airport Corp should be happy with the extra revenue.
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Gaunty
I’m right with you, except for:
“. . . whilst QF are loving ANs former corporate accounts to death . . “
Not so in my neck of the woods. In fact this as been the subject of numerous inter-corporate conversations recently. QF are playing hardball with their corporate accounts, giving little away in concessions. Frankly, I think they are creating an Achilles heal at the moment . . . those of us with corporate purchasing power will remember this period and how Dixon and others have screwed us down. This is the card that VB or AN need to play if they are to take on QF in the high yield corporate market . . . IMHO.
Cheers
I’m right with you, except for:
“. . . whilst QF are loving ANs former corporate accounts to death . . “
Not so in my neck of the woods. In fact this as been the subject of numerous inter-corporate conversations recently. QF are playing hardball with their corporate accounts, giving little away in concessions. Frankly, I think they are creating an Achilles heal at the moment . . . those of us with corporate purchasing power will remember this period and how Dixon and others have screwed us down. This is the card that VB or AN need to play if they are to take on QF in the high yield corporate market . . . IMHO.
Cheers
Grandpa Aerotart
Radnav, far be it for me to accuse anyone so full of 'it' as vacuous! Dear chap I fear there's no room left!
Lets see, in every post on this thread you have accused pilots of various companies going right back 12 years of being directly responsible for the 'predicament' that they collectively find themselves in.
Or accused an experienced pilot (F100/F28 FWA by the sound of it) as being part of the problem because he is happy to accept the going rates for jet Captains in OZ at the moment, as opposed to heartbreaking work that pays crap in a job he hates, but tolerates for his family.
Or accused those who worked overseas for whatever reason and now chose to come home and fly for the going rates as spineless.
Is 110K + Overtime for a 146 Captain not enough?
Is 120K + Overtime for a 717/737 Captain not enough.
Is 300K for a 747 400 Captain too much after 20 years in QF?
I don't think so, but it's not my call. Would the guys on 110K like more? Of course but is it reasonable to expect they'll get a lot more? Probably not in the present climate.
It's called supply and demand. A few months ago we were, as pilots, on top, but now we are not, for all sorts of reasons which are outside the control of pilots.
Why do many pilots think that the economic basics not apply to them? I find it fascinating that you think we should all sit back, withdraw our labour and wait for the beancounters WHO RUN THINGS to come to their senses, we all know they are idiots and won't!
So everyone makes their choices,
Bloggs who has been OS for 10 years and likes the sound of 120K to drive a 737 around the east coast decides.
Smith who is a DHC8 pilot in the NT decides he thinks 80K to fly with a reasonable bunch of guys on a 737 around the east coast sounds great, with a command 3 to 7 years.
Qduck who was happily ensconsed in the LHS of a F100 on 90K until Dennis got so sick that the children decided that they wanted their inheritance to blow out their collective backsides decides that a 737 slot at VB or 717 at Q link would be the ducks guts (sorry Q )
WHO THE ***** ARE YOU TO DECIDE THEY ARE WRONG!
I choose to stay overseas for many reasons, just one of which is I net a fair bit more than I would in OZ. For that I miss out on some things I love to do, that's my decision!
You may not be a wannabee but you are a selfish prat!
Qduck $110,000.00 to $300,000.00 is probably closer
Chuck.
Lets see, in every post on this thread you have accused pilots of various companies going right back 12 years of being directly responsible for the 'predicament' that they collectively find themselves in.
Or accused an experienced pilot (F100/F28 FWA by the sound of it) as being part of the problem because he is happy to accept the going rates for jet Captains in OZ at the moment, as opposed to heartbreaking work that pays crap in a job he hates, but tolerates for his family.
Or accused those who worked overseas for whatever reason and now chose to come home and fly for the going rates as spineless.
Is 110K + Overtime for a 146 Captain not enough?
Is 120K + Overtime for a 717/737 Captain not enough.
Is 300K for a 747 400 Captain too much after 20 years in QF?
I don't think so, but it's not my call. Would the guys on 110K like more? Of course but is it reasonable to expect they'll get a lot more? Probably not in the present climate.
It's called supply and demand. A few months ago we were, as pilots, on top, but now we are not, for all sorts of reasons which are outside the control of pilots.
Why do many pilots think that the economic basics not apply to them? I find it fascinating that you think we should all sit back, withdraw our labour and wait for the beancounters WHO RUN THINGS to come to their senses, we all know they are idiots and won't!
So everyone makes their choices,
Bloggs who has been OS for 10 years and likes the sound of 120K to drive a 737 around the east coast decides.
Smith who is a DHC8 pilot in the NT decides he thinks 80K to fly with a reasonable bunch of guys on a 737 around the east coast sounds great, with a command 3 to 7 years.
Qduck who was happily ensconsed in the LHS of a F100 on 90K until Dennis got so sick that the children decided that they wanted their inheritance to blow out their collective backsides decides that a 737 slot at VB or 717 at Q link would be the ducks guts (sorry Q
)WHO THE ***** ARE YOU TO DECIDE THEY ARE WRONG!
I choose to stay overseas for many reasons, just one of which is I net a fair bit more than I would in OZ. For that I miss out on some things I love to do, that's my decision!
You may not be a wannabee but you are a selfish prat!
Qduck $110,000.00 to $300,000.00 is probably closer
Chuck.
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AN is by name only. People out there in business land will have zero brand allegiance and will travel on the airline offering the best deals. QF will not do this and VB do not offer the product the business market wants.
VB are full as a result of charging compass like airfares. Compass went broke doing it while training crews and leasing more jets. Virgin brand awareness is still low in Oz.
AN's past means very little to smart people, as said before, it is name only.
SQ are still in the picture at AN and have big plans for the airbus fleet. AN mark III is nothing more than an SQ startup.
From a mate at a large banking institution - VB recently defaulted on a loan for their newest NG -hence its inactivity at BN.
VB are full as a result of charging compass like airfares. Compass went broke doing it while training crews and leasing more jets. Virgin brand awareness is still low in Oz.
AN's past means very little to smart people, as said before, it is name only.
SQ are still in the picture at AN and have big plans for the airbus fleet. AN mark III is nothing more than an SQ startup.
From a mate at a large banking institution - VB recently defaulted on a loan for their newest NG -hence its inactivity at BN.