Kaptin M et al
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Kaptin M et al
Hello all
With the demise of AN, many feel their world has collapsed into an irrepairable heap.
I have had the displeasure to read many posts showing vengance, glee, unbridled joy at the misfortunes of others in the aftermath of this very difficult time, and you Kaptin M et al (don't try to hide) are at the forefront of those cheering on the misfortunes of others.
A word of advice.
Our world is tenuously placed.
In times like this, you either go forwards as a hman being or you continue to sink into a pit of hatred, jealousy, covetousness, evny, gluttony, anger, pride and sloth.
Tough words for tough times.
We don't hate you Kaptin M et al, we're trying to help you.
With the suicide of an erstwhile Ansett pilot, now is the time to forget and forgive the valid points regarding the times of 1989.
Move on.
Grow.
Stop propogating hatred.
With the demise of AN, many feel their world has collapsed into an irrepairable heap.
I have had the displeasure to read many posts showing vengance, glee, unbridled joy at the misfortunes of others in the aftermath of this very difficult time, and you Kaptin M et al (don't try to hide) are at the forefront of those cheering on the misfortunes of others.
A word of advice.
Our world is tenuously placed.
In times like this, you either go forwards as a hman being or you continue to sink into a pit of hatred, jealousy, covetousness, evny, gluttony, anger, pride and sloth.
Tough words for tough times.
We don't hate you Kaptin M et al, we're trying to help you.
With the suicide of an erstwhile Ansett pilot, now is the time to forget and forgive the valid points regarding the times of 1989.
Move on.
Grow.
Stop propogating hatred.
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HLAH....
Actually, you could be right.
Don't think we '89 ers don't have sympathy fot the many caught up in the collapse of Ansett. The feelings you are experiencing now are very similar to what we all felt 12 years ago.
Fortunately for us, time has erased the memories, and we have moved on.
But there are still a few things about the attitudes of some posting here, that really get up my nose.
Particularly those attempting to claim the high moral ground, and giving all sorts of heartfelt, supposedly genuine advice on how to save me from myself. Let me give you some advice:
I DON"T WANT OR NEED YOUR ADVICE!
I've moved on. I've had 12 years to deal with it. I'm not sitting around wallowing in self pity, I'm now making the best of my life exiled from Australia. Sure I'm making big money, but it's only compensation for not being able to live and work in my own country.
And I'm still exiled (for economic reasons) because I lost years in recovering from the economic blow of '89.
Too bad about the displeasure you've had reading et al's posts - I've had to put up with just as much displeasure in reading the gloating and baiting of the scabs for the last several years. Not too many of you gave a toss then.
And don't try to heap guilt on us for the unfortunate death of a fellow pilot. I too had a pilot friend who I believe took his own life as a direct result of the stress placed on him after the dispute.
So get down off your high horses all you bleeding heart amateur psychologists. I too am sick of hearing from you.
Oh, and on the point of "forgive and forget."
In the 12 years since the dispute, I have NEVER heard one scab express even one word of regret, remorse or any other form of apology for his shameful actions in doing his utmost to prevent his former friends from flying in Australia again.
You use words like "I made the right choice" because it was purely a self interest choice, with no regret for the damage your actions would have on other people and their families.
I am still seriously affected by the actions of the scabs in '89. So before I say "OK - let's forgive and forget", lets hear some apologies from a few scabs. A few words of regret maybe, or even an acknowledgement that what they did might have been the right choice for them personally, but sure did wreck a lot of other lives.
But excuse me if I don't hold my breath.
Actually, you could be right.
Don't think we '89 ers don't have sympathy fot the many caught up in the collapse of Ansett. The feelings you are experiencing now are very similar to what we all felt 12 years ago.
Fortunately for us, time has erased the memories, and we have moved on.
But there are still a few things about the attitudes of some posting here, that really get up my nose.
Particularly those attempting to claim the high moral ground, and giving all sorts of heartfelt, supposedly genuine advice on how to save me from myself. Let me give you some advice:
I DON"T WANT OR NEED YOUR ADVICE!
I've moved on. I've had 12 years to deal with it. I'm not sitting around wallowing in self pity, I'm now making the best of my life exiled from Australia. Sure I'm making big money, but it's only compensation for not being able to live and work in my own country.
And I'm still exiled (for economic reasons) because I lost years in recovering from the economic blow of '89.
Too bad about the displeasure you've had reading et al's posts - I've had to put up with just as much displeasure in reading the gloating and baiting of the scabs for the last several years. Not too many of you gave a toss then.
And don't try to heap guilt on us for the unfortunate death of a fellow pilot. I too had a pilot friend who I believe took his own life as a direct result of the stress placed on him after the dispute.
So get down off your high horses all you bleeding heart amateur psychologists. I too am sick of hearing from you.
Oh, and on the point of "forgive and forget."
In the 12 years since the dispute, I have NEVER heard one scab express even one word of regret, remorse or any other form of apology for his shameful actions in doing his utmost to prevent his former friends from flying in Australia again.
You use words like "I made the right choice" because it was purely a self interest choice, with no regret for the damage your actions would have on other people and their families.
I am still seriously affected by the actions of the scabs in '89. So before I say "OK - let's forgive and forget", lets hear some apologies from a few scabs. A few words of regret maybe, or even an acknowledgement that what they did might have been the right choice for them personally, but sure did wreck a lot of other lives.
But excuse me if I don't hold my breath.
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Hello Betelgeuse
"Betelgeuse" is the alpha star of the constellation Orion, a Super Giant star 430 light years away from us with a diameter equal to the orbit of Jupiter around our Sun.
Not a bad handle for you.
Something that may have escaped you however, maybe not - either way please don't take offense, is that I am not one of the poorly named "eighty niners", have never worked for, nor hope to ever work for an Australian airline. This I say as a consequence of your response.
I do have an interest in the angst of others however, not to mention my own unrelated anger - at burnt toast for example, and the valid concerns of the eighty niners has not gone unnoticed.
Nor is this current crop of 16000 odd unemployed folks whose troubles are large, one of whom has comitted suicide. By the way Betelgeuse, I take you to task sir on the issue of me blaming you ("us" was your wording) for that, as you referred in your post.
That is a misconception.
I did not, and a cursory glance at my post may enlighten you, so please take that back.
Moving on, I am no amateur psychologist, and any reference to that is a reflection of the anger of those that despise and denigrate that profession of people who are merely trying to help those in need.
May I suggest sir, that you therefore help your erstwhile colleagues of the ridiculously named "war" who are, in writing, on this very forum, consumed with unremarkable glee at the misfortunes of others.
Mine is not a subjective viewpoint.
It is objective, as confirmed by the writings of bile to which the moderator is responding of late.
If any readers have moved on, prove it by not responding.
Otherwise I call on Kaptin M, et al, who are on record as stirring up hatred, malcontent and venomous discord, to make a small attempt to undo the damage you have sown, not in the demise of Ansett, in the propogation of anger and hatred.
Need an example?
I was casually reading a newspaper the other day, minding my own business in the lobby of a hotel somewhere along our route structure.
Along comes a pilot colleague, away on his own rostered trip but in the same hotel, who sat down and launched into how happy he was to see Anseet having folded, "those bastard scabs finally getting what for" and that they robbed him of his "right" to his job etc etc etc.
Finally, he left.
Now is a good time to start undoing this particular knot of hatred.
Be brave, and get on with it Kaptin M et al.
"Betelgeuse" is the alpha star of the constellation Orion, a Super Giant star 430 light years away from us with a diameter equal to the orbit of Jupiter around our Sun.
Not a bad handle for you.
Something that may have escaped you however, maybe not - either way please don't take offense, is that I am not one of the poorly named "eighty niners", have never worked for, nor hope to ever work for an Australian airline. This I say as a consequence of your response.
I do have an interest in the angst of others however, not to mention my own unrelated anger - at burnt toast for example, and the valid concerns of the eighty niners has not gone unnoticed.
Nor is this current crop of 16000 odd unemployed folks whose troubles are large, one of whom has comitted suicide. By the way Betelgeuse, I take you to task sir on the issue of me blaming you ("us" was your wording) for that, as you referred in your post.
That is a misconception.
I did not, and a cursory glance at my post may enlighten you, so please take that back.
Moving on, I am no amateur psychologist, and any reference to that is a reflection of the anger of those that despise and denigrate that profession of people who are merely trying to help those in need.
May I suggest sir, that you therefore help your erstwhile colleagues of the ridiculously named "war" who are, in writing, on this very forum, consumed with unremarkable glee at the misfortunes of others.
Mine is not a subjective viewpoint.
It is objective, as confirmed by the writings of bile to which the moderator is responding of late.
If any readers have moved on, prove it by not responding.
Otherwise I call on Kaptin M, et al, who are on record as stirring up hatred, malcontent and venomous discord, to make a small attempt to undo the damage you have sown, not in the demise of Ansett, in the propogation of anger and hatred.
Need an example?
I was casually reading a newspaper the other day, minding my own business in the lobby of a hotel somewhere along our route structure.
Along comes a pilot colleague, away on his own rostered trip but in the same hotel, who sat down and launched into how happy he was to see Anseet having folded, "those bastard scabs finally getting what for" and that they robbed him of his "right" to his job etc etc etc.
Finally, he left.
Now is a good time to start undoing this particular knot of hatred.
Be brave, and get on with it Kaptin M et al.
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Hell – you’re a bit sensitive HLAH!!
The fact that I called you and the other bleeding hearts on this forum “amateur psychologists” is somehow a denigration of Psychologists! You’ve got me scratching my head there!
What I’m saying is that you are not a psychologist, so don’t presume to give me psychological help that you’re not qualified to give, and which I don’t want and do not need. You don’t know anything about me, except that I didn’t scab in ’89 (or ever).
Thanks for the info on my handle – it’s not meant to be some deep subconscious reflection of my psyche, just that astronomy is an interest of mine and it is an astonishing object and sounded like a good name, and was available. Sure you’re not a frustrated psychologist wannabe? (Sorry – I couldn’t resist that one – no offence)
On the subject of handles, your posts might be taken a little more seriously if you’d chosen a different handle. It doesn’t really mean much, but does reflect somewhat on your credibility.
Actually I did my best not to accuse you of being a scab, and thought I succeeded. But the interesting thing is, so many contributors find the need to qualify themselves as “not ever having worked for an Australian airline etc…” I wonder why that is? I suspect that its to make clear that they are not scabs. So you see, so many say they are sick of hearing about it etc, but are still proud that they are not themselves scabs.
You took me to task over the issue of who is to blame for the unfortunate demise of your friend and/or colleague. Let’s see, your post was directed to Kaptain M, who is universally known as an ’89 non-scab, you mention Kaptain M ET AL in the second paragraph and proceed to give a word of advice. I presume ET AL is directed at the rest of the non-scabs who have expressed some satisfaction at the scabs being unemployed. You then talk about “forgive and forget” the events of '89 in the same sentence as the suicide of a pilot.
I’ve read and re-read your post, and it sure looks like you think our anger at scabs has something to do with his demise. Sorry, I don’t think I need to take that back.
So you think “war” is a “ridiculous” description of the events of ’89? Where were you when the prime minister of Australia, someone who was elected to serve the people, stood up on national television and declared “war” on a group of employees who were engaged in legitimate industrial action? Did you really not hear it? Perhaps you were too young, or maybe just weren’t really interested because it didn’t directly affect you. I’m alright Jack eh?
Look, I’m sick to death of those who keep bleating about closing threads because they don’t like what they read in them. It’s been said many times before – “If you don’t like reading it, just move on to another thread!” Hell, I do it all the time. Are you unable to do this? Hundreds of people do it every day.
So, lets hear from a few “returnees” – any one think now they might have acted less than honorably in ’89? Any feelings of regret now?
I didn’t think so.
The fact that I called you and the other bleeding hearts on this forum “amateur psychologists” is somehow a denigration of Psychologists! You’ve got me scratching my head there!
What I’m saying is that you are not a psychologist, so don’t presume to give me psychological help that you’re not qualified to give, and which I don’t want and do not need. You don’t know anything about me, except that I didn’t scab in ’89 (or ever).
Thanks for the info on my handle – it’s not meant to be some deep subconscious reflection of my psyche, just that astronomy is an interest of mine and it is an astonishing object and sounded like a good name, and was available. Sure you’re not a frustrated psychologist wannabe? (Sorry – I couldn’t resist that one – no offence)
On the subject of handles, your posts might be taken a little more seriously if you’d chosen a different handle. It doesn’t really mean much, but does reflect somewhat on your credibility.
Actually I did my best not to accuse you of being a scab, and thought I succeeded. But the interesting thing is, so many contributors find the need to qualify themselves as “not ever having worked for an Australian airline etc…” I wonder why that is? I suspect that its to make clear that they are not scabs. So you see, so many say they are sick of hearing about it etc, but are still proud that they are not themselves scabs.
You took me to task over the issue of who is to blame for the unfortunate demise of your friend and/or colleague. Let’s see, your post was directed to Kaptain M, who is universally known as an ’89 non-scab, you mention Kaptain M ET AL in the second paragraph and proceed to give a word of advice. I presume ET AL is directed at the rest of the non-scabs who have expressed some satisfaction at the scabs being unemployed. You then talk about “forgive and forget” the events of '89 in the same sentence as the suicide of a pilot.
I’ve read and re-read your post, and it sure looks like you think our anger at scabs has something to do with his demise. Sorry, I don’t think I need to take that back.
So you think “war” is a “ridiculous” description of the events of ’89? Where were you when the prime minister of Australia, someone who was elected to serve the people, stood up on national television and declared “war” on a group of employees who were engaged in legitimate industrial action? Did you really not hear it? Perhaps you were too young, or maybe just weren’t really interested because it didn’t directly affect you. I’m alright Jack eh?
Look, I’m sick to death of those who keep bleating about closing threads because they don’t like what they read in them. It’s been said many times before – “If you don’t like reading it, just move on to another thread!” Hell, I do it all the time. Are you unable to do this? Hundreds of people do it every day.
So, lets hear from a few “returnees” – any one think now they might have acted less than honorably in ’89? Any feelings of regret now?
I didn’t think so.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Hung like a hoss, I will not confess to not feeling that some degree of "justice" has been dealt to our scab colleagues - and especially in the same manner as WE were dealt by the then Government, under the auspices of the ACTU, and to the delight of those who prevented us from returning to work in Australia. I feel sorry for the "innocents" who have been pulled into the whirlpool - however it is only the same record (as 1989) being played again....and who cared then?
If it's sympathy you're after, I'm afraid my heart was hardened eons ago - it IS a tough, different world that many helped introduce to Australia, 12 years ago, in spite of the loud, long protestations of the pilots of the AFAP!
At present I'm on vacation - in Oz and N.Z. - and am quite happy to fly across the Ditch with a Canadian crew, however not so pleased to be flown domestically on a QF flight by a scab South African!
If it's sympathy you're after, I'm afraid my heart was hardened eons ago - it IS a tough, different world that many helped introduce to Australia, 12 years ago, in spite of the loud, long protestations of the pilots of the AFAP!
At present I'm on vacation - in Oz and N.Z. - and am quite happy to fly across the Ditch with a Canadian crew, however not so pleased to be flown domestically on a QF flight by a scab South African!
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Too young?
Yep, only had 2000 hours at the time of your "war".
Want to make sure I am not mistaken as a scab 'cause I don't ever want to be one?
Yep!
Feel bad about that?
Nope!
Giving folks advice?
Yep!
Hell, you folks sure are angry.
Knew the suicide guy?
Not from a bar of soap.
Concern for another human being?
Yep!
Apologise for that?
Er, I don't think so.
Lesson from all this?
From my point of view, I won't entertain further comment or debate regarding your war.
I suppose that should make you pleased.
That way, the only people that will "debate" should agree with you.
Sounds profitable.
I'd wish you all good luck, but then again I suppose it could be said that "we don't need your luck".
What an unfortunate lot you all are.
Yep, only had 2000 hours at the time of your "war".
Want to make sure I am not mistaken as a scab 'cause I don't ever want to be one?
Yep!
Feel bad about that?
Nope!
Giving folks advice?
Yep!
Hell, you folks sure are angry.
Knew the suicide guy?
Not from a bar of soap.
Concern for another human being?
Yep!
Apologise for that?
Er, I don't think so.
Lesson from all this?
From my point of view, I won't entertain further comment or debate regarding your war.
I suppose that should make you pleased.
That way, the only people that will "debate" should agree with you.
Sounds profitable.
I'd wish you all good luck, but then again I suppose it could be said that "we don't need your luck".
What an unfortunate lot you all are.
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Every such event, suicide, is an act not committed with a rational mind.
The individual involved has generally reached a point where he or she has lost the ability to ask for help. They feel so alone, and that the world had collapsed on them.
I feel nothing but a sense of loss, in the human context, at any such event.
And yes, I am one of KM's ET AL'S.
The individual involved has generally reached a point where he or she has lost the ability to ask for help. They feel so alone, and that the world had collapsed on them.
I feel nothing but a sense of loss, in the human context, at any such event.
And yes, I am one of KM's ET AL'S.
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Hung Like A Horse
Forget Trying to change this group of sad people. If you take away their hatred you would take away their reason for living. Fortunately the vast majority of 89ers are normal people who realise that wrongs were done from both sides and they accepted the took a path which turned out not to go the way they wanted it to go. The other small group to this day can't accept they stuffed up and as a result you can see from the post after post that they just want to perpetuate their hatred. You can see how some are not in the least interested at the sad death of a fellow aviator. Forget it just let them continue. They still consider they have a just cause and still can't realise that outside their little rings of fire they are considered one of the oddessys of Aust Aviation.
Forget Trying to change this group of sad people. If you take away their hatred you would take away their reason for living. Fortunately the vast majority of 89ers are normal people who realise that wrongs were done from both sides and they accepted the took a path which turned out not to go the way they wanted it to go. The other small group to this day can't accept they stuffed up and as a result you can see from the post after post that they just want to perpetuate their hatred. You can see how some are not in the least interested at the sad death of a fellow aviator. Forget it just let them continue. They still consider they have a just cause and still can't realise that outside their little rings of fire they are considered one of the oddessys of Aust Aviation.
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Now, before I start this, I want you all to understand that I'm NOT whinging...
In '89 I received an UNSOLICITED call from two (then) TAA T/C's who on a recruiting drive (overseas). They offered me a D/E command on a 737 with TAA. Wow, I thought, what an opportunity. So I went for the sim ride, and was duly offered the job. I had an immigrant visa in 2 days.
About then, my conscience kicked in, and I started asking around. Sure enough, my (out-of-work) mates said, the job is dinkum, but understand, these are OUR jobs. So I called the CEO of TAA and said "thanks, but no thanks".
I continued with my career path at my "old" airline, and eventually moved on to greener pastures after 2 years.
It all looked rosy when I arrived. With EFIS, wide-bodied, C&T command time up the wazoo, "A man like you," they said "will have a command here in four years." So I donned two stripes and waited. Great. After four years, it was still four years. After TEN years, I finally got the blessing and moved over to the hallowed seat.
Why did it take so long? In the interim, my company started recruiting D/E captains for a freighter division, by-passing our seniority list. Who took the jobs, effectively "bumping" me out a seat? Why, the very people I chose to protect in '89!
In '99 our association voted to integrate these D/E's and others into our seniority list (I voted no) and the majority moved over, but were "grand fathered" into seats that I was still waiting for. Who? ‘89’ ers, that’s who,
So there I was, 8 years with my company, 100% beyond the projected time to command, largely as a result of being bypassed by people who, 10 years earlier, urged me to "protect their jobs" by not taking them. All over the world, these same gentlemen were accepting positions that, under "normal" circumstances, would have gone to lesser-experienced crew, giving THEM a chance.
I am happy I never went to OZ in '89.
I am happy I have never "scabbed".
I was disappointed at my mates who did go.
I have been accused, on the web, of being a scab, yet I never set foot in OZ.
Not a single '89'er has ever said thanks for not coming.
Kaptin M (and the others) it's time to lay off the "scab" stuff. Some people (on both sides) just don't have a clue. Some folks with foreign accents are immigrants too; legitimate ones, as is EVERY white Ozzie.
Besides, what's good for the goose...
Standing by for incoming...
[ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: Übersturmfuhrer ]
In '89 I received an UNSOLICITED call from two (then) TAA T/C's who on a recruiting drive (overseas). They offered me a D/E command on a 737 with TAA. Wow, I thought, what an opportunity. So I went for the sim ride, and was duly offered the job. I had an immigrant visa in 2 days.
About then, my conscience kicked in, and I started asking around. Sure enough, my (out-of-work) mates said, the job is dinkum, but understand, these are OUR jobs. So I called the CEO of TAA and said "thanks, but no thanks".
I continued with my career path at my "old" airline, and eventually moved on to greener pastures after 2 years.
It all looked rosy when I arrived. With EFIS, wide-bodied, C&T command time up the wazoo, "A man like you," they said "will have a command here in four years." So I donned two stripes and waited. Great. After four years, it was still four years. After TEN years, I finally got the blessing and moved over to the hallowed seat.
Why did it take so long? In the interim, my company started recruiting D/E captains for a freighter division, by-passing our seniority list. Who took the jobs, effectively "bumping" me out a seat? Why, the very people I chose to protect in '89!
In '99 our association voted to integrate these D/E's and others into our seniority list (I voted no) and the majority moved over, but were "grand fathered" into seats that I was still waiting for. Who? ‘89’ ers, that’s who,
So there I was, 8 years with my company, 100% beyond the projected time to command, largely as a result of being bypassed by people who, 10 years earlier, urged me to "protect their jobs" by not taking them. All over the world, these same gentlemen were accepting positions that, under "normal" circumstances, would have gone to lesser-experienced crew, giving THEM a chance.
I am happy I never went to OZ in '89.
I am happy I have never "scabbed".
I was disappointed at my mates who did go.
I have been accused, on the web, of being a scab, yet I never set foot in OZ.
Not a single '89'er has ever said thanks for not coming.
Kaptin M (and the others) it's time to lay off the "scab" stuff. Some people (on both sides) just don't have a clue. Some folks with foreign accents are immigrants too; legitimate ones, as is EVERY white Ozzie.
Besides, what's good for the goose...
Standing by for incoming...
[ 03 October 2001: Message edited by: Übersturmfuhrer ]
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Mr. U. Of course it is whingeing. Otherwise you would not have written the post.
There were a number of hours between my last post and the submission by PV.
The tone, sadly, demonstrates a level of mindlessness.
There were a number of hours between my last post and the submission by PV.
The tone, sadly, demonstrates a level of mindlessness.
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Um,
As an 89 and "little Critters" to feed,
thank you not taking the blue sky route. Your are a gentleman.
To others, it that trivialize the events of that period, please shoulder some responsibilty for the perpetuation of the aggrevation expressed on this site.
" The worst bus accidents in recent years have been:
20 people killed on the Pacific Highway near Cowper on 20 October 1989 in a collision with a semi-trailer;
35 people killed on the Pacific Highway near Kempsey on 22 December 1989 in a collision with another bus. "
A blunt reminder of the enormity of what occured.
Sobering thoughts,
Max
As an 89 and "little Critters" to feed,
thank you not taking the blue sky route. Your are a gentleman.
To others, it that trivialize the events of that period, please shoulder some responsibilty for the perpetuation of the aggrevation expressed on this site.
" The worst bus accidents in recent years have been:
20 people killed on the Pacific Highway near Cowper on 20 October 1989 in a collision with a semi-trailer;
35 people killed on the Pacific Highway near Kempsey on 22 December 1989 in a collision with another bus. "
A blunt reminder of the enormity of what occured.
Sobering thoughts,
Max
