I think that might be an over tech solution to the chaps problem.

He has a installation which he needs to do training with and nothing else.

I know its a good solution but the chap obviously isn't that happy with IT "crap" and a clone with dual boot is relatively easy and involves minimal setup.

Max before you clone the XP disk go into control panel and remove all the software you not going to use under XP but will be using under Win7.

Thanks Mad Jock and llondel,

Think I will go for the simplest option and pay someone to come around should I get stuck.

Cheers,
mo

if your of a mind to pay someone let them do it from the start.

If you give them the machine without you fannying around with it, its a relatively simple job. Once you have half screwed it, it will take twice as long and mucho frustration to fix.

Don't go to PC world they will feed you some bollocks.

You want current disk cloned to a larger disk 500mb or 750mb will do fine.

Windows 7 or 8 installed as a dual boot with XP.

XP rendered safe by removing hardware drivers for the networking.

Apologies for waking mixture, here, folks, but this is what 'TechRepublic' has to say today.

:)

Yup... as the article summarises

So you lot of clinger-ons.... dump XP ... replace it with 7/8/Mac/Linux.... what I've been saying all along !

Well I suspect that 30% of internet users will give that the same amount of ignoring as they do your posts on here. ie complete.

Until the IT industry realises that people arn't going to do as they are advised for a variety of reasons and alter the way they do things they are stuff.

To be honest I suspect even if MS gave away free upgrades people still wouldn't upgrade. So your stuffed.

That's the reality, though.

I'm the "only game in town" when it comes to computer help for a fair number of silver-surfers in the three congregations here. Most of them are using XP because that's what the computer came with, and they have no intention of spending a hefty slice of their pension on upgrading to something different. So XP it remains, and will.

What I have done for them is to make sure that they have decent (free) virus protection, and educated them NEVER to click on links in e-mails from people they don't know, or on strange-sounding links from people they do know.

All have had the usual crop of e-mails from hijacked Hotmail and AOL accounts, and all have let me know that they did what I said and deleted them without clicking on anything. I've only had to to one "disinfection" in the last year or so.

If Hotmail and AOL can screw up to the extent that complete ID and password lists are compromised and the users' address books hijacked for spamming and virusmail, I see continuing to use XP as "undesirable, but not the biggest problem in town."

The problem is, Keef, that the 'baddies' will eventually find a way to sucker your SS's into catching a cold - and they are very unlikely to know it has happened. Isolation from the internet is the only safe option long term.

I suspect the 'shock/horror' your oldies will feel having to shell out for 7 or 8 (or 9) may well dent M$'s attractiveness to the general public - and industry judging by the reported proliferation of XP there.

Indeed, BOAC. Most of these delightful people use the internet extensively to keep in touch with children and grandchildren in far places, so "no internet" isn't a viable option.

So far, the stuff that might have caught them unawares has been stopped by anti-virus and their own caution. They've seen the "hijacked" Hotmail and AOL stuff, and in many cases spoken to the hijackees, so they know Keef is telling them the truth about the risks.

XP lacunae are only one of several sets of traps they have to be protected against: the biggest single effort has been to stop them updating anything from those providers who bundle all sorts of crapware into packages (Adobe being the worst but not only offender). Browser hijackers scare the daylights out of them - these are totally non-computer-literate people.

keef I know its a pain but with those sort of users it worth thinking about giving them Linux.

They will only use a set number of apps most of thier stuff is web based.

The other advantage is you can set them all up so you can remote access them at home as well.

At lets face it most of the time your just going to go in and type "sudo yum update" and that's it.

I am actually against people moving away from XP. I just don't think its going to happen for multiple reasons.

MJ, I installed Linux on a PC here a few years ago. It took me days to get it working properly - after which, yes, it was impressive. I had to learn a whole load of batch file processing stuff that took me back to Windows 3.1 and the late 80s.

Then the graphics card died and was replaced with a different model: it refused to have anything to do with anything. I had to install Windows to get the thing working again.

I'm not going there again, nohow. Not even for a dozen or so lovely people who aren't into computers. I could see several weeks of my life trying to sort a batch of different machines with a load of historical and treasured stuff on them. If anything gets lost, it's my fault.

If they do something silly with their XP installations, it's not my fault: I'm the chap who turns up and fixes it for nothing more than a cup of coffee. An afternoon a year isn't too bad.

Any way you can encourage them to put away a couple of quid a week? They'll have saved up for a new version of Windows by Christmas.

- ditto here - Ubuntu 13 - no network connection. Back to 12, same, not even switching on the HP 510 wireless card. Eventually found an obscure fix on the internet. Way to go, Linux!

please try it again. But I can completely understand why you don't want to go near it. But at least you will have a plan for if it all goes pete tong.

Personally I like fedora but there are more user friendly versions out there.

Just make a live OS usb stick and boot it using that and see if everything works.

I haven't had to go searching for drivers for a good 5 years with any Linux installation. If its an old machine with XP on it I would be very surprise if the hardware required any tinkering of drivers to get it all working.

These are old age pensioners. If they could put away a couple of quid a week, they'd have better things to spend it on than Microsoft. Most of the computers they are using are "hand me downs" from grandchildren and the like.

Fedora was the only one of the several flavours that I tried that I'd bother with again, based on experience then. Ubuntu wouldn't let me do stuff I wanted to do (and decided to change itself to Kubuntu for some reason). Some of the others had a pretty awful GUI (or none). Slackware appealed to the geek in me in the early days, but I think that's long extinct now anyway.
They were all a pain in the neck to network - I had to mess with long strings of samba stuff, some of which worked and some didn't.

And then the graphics card died. The new card worked "just like that" with Windows, and threw up all sorts of error messages in Linux. That was the end of the Linux experiment for me.

I do keep a Knoppix CD for unscrambling damaged Windows installations. A friend of mine (now retired, but until recently a Professor at London University) had a load of research stuff on his PC; the PC went on the blink, and he found that his regular "offline" backups hadn't been working correctly. Knoppix saved the day. That is a very useful tool!

I tried several versions of "Linux bootable sticks" last year. None would sway me away from Windows 7.

The biggest problem with linux is that there is just too many ways to do everything. This is great if you like playing, but its not much fun when you just want to use a computer. When you have a problem, you end up scouring the ends of the internet to find a solution.

Must admit I went for fedora about 8 years ago now and haven't had many issues with it at all.

In fact my aspire one hasn't had any tampering with for years. It just gets a yum update and it always goes through with no problems. In fact it must of had 5 full OS upgrades using that method.

I just followed one of the "prefect fedora desktop" aka

The Perfect Desktop - Fedora 18 XFCE | HowtoForge - Linux Howtos and Tutorials

type things.

Must have done 20 odd machines now without any issues.

Network I will admit I have a old but pretty functional knowledge of all the various *nix config files, so I think I had one intel wifi card 5 years ago that was a pain in the bum. But after 30seconds I fired in a new one of a different make swapped from another laptop and it worked a treat. Put in another repo and got the correct driver and then swapped it back.

To my knowledge none of the machines I have set up have needed any tampering with after setup. They just do what they are intended for and updates go through and they continue to work.

As you say not much point if there is a usable Win 7 installation you can use. It was just a suggestion for the XP users in your flock.

I was in my local Ford dealer's spares department today - Ford are the biggest seller of new cars in Spain with the PRC cars - and was impressed by their software. Give the guy your registration or even your name, up on the computer screen comes all the details of your car, and then devolves into lists, graphics, pictures, instructions. Ordering the moulding I wanted was simplicity itself.

Only thing is, Ford's spares and parts software (certainly in Spain) was written for and runs on....XP.

Sure, monthly updates for XP programming flaws have been discontinued.

While there have been dire warnings about XP, has anyone heard of any ACTUAL attacks that weren't caught by antivirus systems, etc.

My XP PCs are not connected to the Internet. I keep them because some important software won't run on Win 7.

seacue

Here we go again ! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Anti-virus and any other software WILL NOT protect you from XP vulnerabilities. They all rely on the OS and its APIs. I do wish people would take 20 seconds to get that into their heads !

Its only a matter of time before we hear publicly .... if, not when ! As time goes on, there will be more and more exploits released of increasing seriousness.

I suspect there have already been zero-day exploits but the clinger-ons probably are to busy being artificially smug to notice.

If you show more empathy you will have more success at getting people to move away from xp.

You will note I am trying to get them away with a solution. But with a more sympathetic outlook to the situation.

OFSO wrote: It was the same at a Mercedes-Benz bodywork repair centre I visited today - WinXP running on their core system.

mixture and other techie geeks, the simple fact (as mad_jock has explained very well) is that the day-to-day user who simply does a little e-mailing, web-surfing and who cannot afford to throw away sound equipment has no idea about Micro$oft's decision. Those who perhaps do then take one look at the Windows 8.1, 8.1 update, 8.2 chaos and Windows 8.1 support nonsense and throw their hands up in confusion.

As has been said, how many other companies are prepared to abuse their dominant market position in such an obscene manner? M$ really seem hell-bent on handing their non-geek customers over to Apple....:uhoh:

BEagle mate that sort of user if the perfect one for the transition to Linux and to cut the tie forever to microtwat.

Your system speed will seem if its a new machine. Most software is free. Unless you have a xp software only application you need to use its definately an option.

As someone with technical knowledge, they are turning to you for advice.

If you sit there and empathise away, telling them not to worry, then you are sending them the wrong message. Its a lose-lose situation, they are not getting the correct advice and you are not helping your own cause when you have to then go tidy up the mess later.

As that article OSFO linked to said. Not spending money is not an option. Its simply a case of whether you spend it proactively now (i.e. by migrating to other OS) or you spend it later (i.e. clearing up the mess you've caused by being a clinger-on).

Stamping the feet rarely convinces anyone to change their mind.

I think most of us are aware that ONCE THE VIRUS HAS GOT IN, then AV and other software won't protect against it. However, it's got to get past the router and its firewall, and then the AV, and then be clicked on (or activated in another way) before it can do its thing. That's the same whether it's an XP virus, or a Win 7 one, or a non-specific one.

If I banged my head on the wall at these folks, their bottom lips would quiver and they wouldn't talk to me any more. Right now, I'm the chap who sorted out their recalcitrant PCs, installed (free) anti-virus, and set up their broadband for them. In most cases I also got Skype working so they can chat with the family. They trust me.

They aren't going to spend a week's pension money on Microsoft stuff (especially not after they've heard the horror stories from the treasurer, who bought a Win 8 laptop a few months ago). I'm also not going to spend the next few weeks of my life going around installing Linux and then being forever after responsible for everything that goes wrong with their (old) machines. That isn't my primary role in this community.

Your coming across as a OCD geek mixture.

As the rev keef who I might add has more human interaction training that all the admins in the UK I suspect. Your method off interaction to get people to change will do more harm than good.

No Keef.

I think you have to go back and read up on your fundamentals.

Anti-virus and all other software runs on top of the Operating System and relies on APIs and other aspects of the Operating System to function.

Compromised OS integrity equals compromised software functionality. No two ways about it... that's the hard facts. They WILL have a way to bypass Anti-Virus... not IF... but WHEN, and that "when" will come sooner than the cling-on brigade would like to hope ! :)

Just look at all the EXTRA security measures you get in operating systems later than XP if you want another good reason to upgrade :

http://blogs.technet.com/resized-ima...7.Untitled.png
(Image courtesy of this article... which should be one of many on the required reading list for the cling-on brigade)

The fact you have to resort to name-calling means you've realised you've lost the argument and are desperately trying to save face, when instead you're just digging yourself into a deeper hole.

I think Mr mixture's computer has been hacked.

Over two weeks ago, and not for the first time, he said

It's obvious that someone is using his id and we should not blindly assume that all these subsequent posts have come from him.

:cool:

I blame OSFO (I think it was) for mentioning my name and citing an article that supported my point of view.

Thus I felt it merited a reply.

I then allowed myself to fall pray to the madness of jock and his sidekick from Dibley ....

But, I know I've said it before, but this time I mean it. I've well and truly had it with the cling-on brigade and am now leaving you lot to stew in your own juices.

Good riddance.

Mixtures back in the game and running on high octane. We are lovin' it, Mixture's lovin' it.

Come on it is game on again!


Regards
Exeng

If the OAPs have older machines then Linux would probably run quite well on them. I upgraded my father to Linux from Window 2000 (!) a few years back. He wanted to stick with Windows until I told him what a retail copy would set him back. I can fix most of his problems remotely, even to the point of getting his scanner working, when I told him to leave something on it so I could have something visible to scan and check the resulting file.

If it's a bit of email, web surfing and occasional letter writing, Linux is cheaper and easier, especially on older hardware as used for XP. It's bleeding-edge new hardware without drivers that lets it down, and that's the manufacturers' fault for not making them available, despite providing several flavours of Windows driver. Strangely enough, Windows sometimes has the opposite problem, new OS doesn't have drivers for older hardware because the manufacturer didn't bother to write one.

Far from digging a hole I would think that my message is having more of an effect than yours.

And if you look I am not saying that people shouldn't change. I am just stating the fact and reasons why they won't even if the upgrade was absolutely free.

Of the computational engines in my household, all have an anti-virus scan at least once a day (except the Linux netbook which is currently asleep).

Some machines have double scans morning and night from two different antivirus.

The only machine which has thrown up a malware detected notification since support for XP was withdrawn is a WIN7 laptop.

I do that every morning, and preach on them most Sundays.

However, to get into my computer (and those of the folks in question), the "nasty" has to get through the firewall in the router. That comes before any APIs in the computer. Or do firewalls not work if the connected computer is using XP?

However, the argument is now in a spin. The folk in question are using XP and aren't going to change. I'm not going to spend weeks swapping them to Linux (not even Linux Mint), and they aren't going to spend a large chunk of pension on Microsoft products. Their firewalls and AV are all they have between them and eternal perdition. So far so good...

I get several per day from Avast, invariably referring to one of those pesky Russian spam e-mails with virus attached. They are obviously trying to convert me...

It wouldn't surprise me if M$ executives leak out future WinXP exploits to drive up profits - after all that's what their busine$$ is all about.

I find that security features table above to be very interesting. Seems to be a lot of obfuscation of the execution image in the heap, or in layman's terms, a sign of a bad original design.

It sure is very hard to change something when you don't have the funds. I recall years ago people used to change their laptops readily providing a trickle down effect that would eventually filter down to the technologically challenged demographic. It all seems to have slowed down since the GFC.

If only some smart cookie would quickly "invent" LinuXP :8

I DO NOT want Mixture on here coming across as all sympathetic and empathetic and cuddly.

I want the usual strident opinionated simple messages. Even the wrong ones about we all know who.

We'd miss him/her if they went away.

cattletruck, there's no need for MS to do anything of the sort. All they have to do is release patches for their supported OSes and the blackhats will take care of the rest. A good percentage of the flaws will also affect WinXP so they reverse engineer the patches (as they've always done) and bingo! Flaw after flaw after flaw that will never be patched on XP.

I blame OSFO (I think it was) for mentioning my name and citing an article that supported my point of view.

My fervent and grovelling apologies to all here for doing this. It won't happen again.....