Support for XP (Pro) and IE 8 users here on PPRuNe...
 

OK, so Microsoft will stop all support for XP (Pro) and similar next April 2014. I'm using XP and IE 8 (so far as I'm aware, that's the best (only version which works on my 10 year old DELL PC).

I've recently been experiencing various problems (eg. having to "refresh" several times before the page on say JB finally appears). Please, I'm not an imbecile, I know how to clear the cache etc. :rolleyes:

Why is this happening? Does PPRuNe's software (vBulletin) no longer support older browsers? Is it because I've disabled some 3rd party cookies which install themselves as soon as one visits PPRuNe?

We should be told.

I and various other resident gurus have already made our position clear.

Don't come running to Computers & Internet looking for tea & sympathy (or just tech support) if you are running XP beyond D-Day.

Its time to stop clinging on to XP and move on.

Seriously, we're not telling people that to piss them off, we're not telling people that because we're somehow beholden to Microsoft... we're telling people this because we know what home users are like with the state of their PCs, because we've seen this all before with Windows 2000, Windows NT, Windows 95, because we know its going to be a lot worse with XP, because we know people just won't begin to comprehend the security consequences of their stubborn actions, they don't comprehend that all software (including anti-virus etc.) is reliant on APIs provided by at the OS level by Microsoft and don't comprehend the security risks (and system stability risks) of the OS being left to grow cobwebs.

In the mean time, this...

Seems more likely to be the cause of your grief.

Don't mess with cookies or javascript unless you understand the consequences of your actions.

I second that last statement. However if it helps and you have access to a reasonable internet connection and a dvd burner .
Try Ubuntu. It works well even on older pc's.
It is not known for getting viruses.
And you can try before you install it . It allows you to boot from the dvd and run a live session.
I had it years ago on an old vista laptop. From then until Vista SP2 and finally 7 came out did I go back to windows.
However I do do the odd bit of tea n sympathy.
So if you need a little advice feel free to pm me.
Il see if I can help.
IT is my business so hopefully I can help.
But it is vital you change from XP soon
You will be unprotected from anything.
Id bet on a surge in serious consequences from everyone from someone such ad your self right up to high ticket sites where the mind set is. If it aint broke.....
Windows XP while very good has been supassed.
But the final nugget of advice.
Never but ever try Windows 8.1 it is the mosy cynical half thought through over complex and many other things that I cant type here.
For the average user . Their world would end!.

Regards
Jon

My latest laptop came installed with W8. For a few weeks it has been nagging me to upgrade to W8.1. Is 8.1 worse than 8.0? Should I stay or should I go?

Nice rant, Mixture. Airship never intimated he'd be using XP for another 20 years unsupported.

Ironically we have onxy recommending we don't update to Windows 8.1. Are you going to give him a rev for that?

For the more-calm types here, my Dad copes with XP but it seems 8 would be a step too far. Would Windows 7 be an option for the next few years for him?

Why thank you. Consider it my Christmas present to you ungrateful lot !

Bah humbug scrooge et al. :E

Given the mention of a 10 year old PC, I wouldn't put anything beyond him ! :cool:

(April 9th is also far less than 20 years).

8 is still current, so no. As is Windows 7 to some degree (SP1+). My only beef is with the XP (or more ancient :eek:) users !

But honestly, I can't imagine the difference from 8 to 8.1 is so vast as to warrant the rant from onyx !

Still, I've yet to download my free copy from Microsoft, so I'll reserve judgement and report back in due course .... (no doubt our honourable friend, that bloke from Bracknell has already played with 8.1, so he may well report findings sooner)

It might be a virus you have.


I'm seeing more viruses these days on Windows XP machines than non-XP. Maybe it's coincidence, but maybe it's not.


Mike.

MB and Others
 

Having recently gone through the hasstle of gettingg rid of XP (SP3) Pro, all ye out there in "Windows XP" land, remember that; if you decide to stay with Microsoft: budget for some decent "System backup software" -

You are remembering to keep the vital stuff on COPIES on either the "Cloud", USB or DVD/CD's in a systematic way.

Slightly less obvious , make sure you export all your bookmarks from IE8 or FF to files that you can "import" back from at a later stage.

Export all your mail contacts to USB *OK the ones you want to keep.if you are using Outlook or the like - I'm talking POP accounts. Gmail etc will be fine.

Record all your passwords: print the list (for temporary use)

If you are using VM do not forget to "Export" you virtual Machines to Seperate HD's.

Make a note of all the relevent Software keys; of application software that you might want to re install like say Office 2007 or other software.

A lot of older Office versions seem to work OK on later versions of Windows.
Think of Photoshop for example that works as an application Win ME to VISTA.

A warning (especialy for those who should know better)

"There be Dragons out here" - For those out there who really want to grab that that last 1.5 Gb from a 60 Gb USB drive PLEASE when extending or deleting a partition and the phone goes, followed by the Door bell and the smoke alarm, go back to what you were doing - WAIT 20 seconds "Re-orentate brain" remember that you were working with "disk 01 and not disk 0" in my case: and proceed with due care and attention.

And for my next trick.

On that trusty USB Stick with all the relevent activation codes: Note a partial activation code with the last five alphanumeric digits missing is unless.

My backup Software unfortunately did not identify the boot partition even after re installation of the operating System. "Its a long and weary road that many feet have trod"

Beware:

CAT III

Edit: With reference to MB, Microsoft have published a security report detailing the relative infection statistices in infections per 1000 P.C's based on the results gathered from the microsoft anti malware app that runs automatically in a limited way as part of the patch tuesday update process.

Its able to identify if a PC does heve some protection in place, but the stats need to be treated with some caution. See the editorial of a well known PC Mag (Beano Fans think of Gnasher )

XP still works for a lot of people - having to re-learn a whole bunch of stuff just because Microsoft needs to pay a dividend isn't a reason for a non-power user to upgrade TBH

I work with a mixture of OS's and it's horses for courses -

Bit like saying I will drive my 30 year old car because I understand it and it still works. Ignoring the fact it is clunky, slow and inefficient when compared to a newer model.

I recently sourced and installed a new PC for a friend whose XP box was getting very old and was past its sell by date. Against my instincts I bought her a machine with W8 on it. It drove me nuts for the first few hours, mainly due to not being able to find anything!

After a few more hours and after upgrading to W8 1 I grudgingly found that I quite liked a lot of it.

However, I received a call a few days later from said friend and she was ecstatic that 'It is so much easier to use, I love it!'. Given that she is an utter numpty when ever I had tried to talk her through something over the telephone when she was using XP to say I was shocked was an understatement. I guess from an uninformed user's point of view MS may have actually made a good OS or more accurately a good user interface.

The differences between W8 and W8.1 are neatly shown here.

If you've got 8, do the 8.1 update. It's more user friendly, and is easier to reconfigure to look like 7. No downside that I'm aware of, except time.

I have acquired a new hard drive and burned a DVD with Ubuntu on it. I am now plucking up courage to install same to see if I can rid myself iof the curse of being obliged to upgrade my Microsoft OS. I have Win 7 on the computer on which I am writing this and, for some reason, I cannot get it to reliably store the cookie I need to store my Pprune settings.... and all sorts of other problems. UGH! I just hope Ubuntu will eventually enable me to use my machines like I used to in the days when XP was the current OS.

P.P.

I'm a Linux Mint man myself - Ubuntu is Boeing brown but Mint is green - more like Airbus blue.

After a few wines!!!

obgraham
 

The Upgrade for the uninitiated for Win 8.0 to win 8.1 is it available as an .iso file or do you need to wait for the install ? NB not everyone has a relatively high speed download.

Even the Ubuntu 13.XX iso is too big for a CD, you need a big USB stick.

CAT III Moved

For completness and the very patient:

Update to Windows 8.1 from Windows 8 - Microsoft Windows

The site does not explicitly mention upgrade times but I'm certain if you use a well known browser you may get appropriate info.

PP The constant references to the origional release date of XP are misleading in Computer Science terms when the last SP update was released we had in many ways an eseantially new O/S.

I suspect the Event horizon being waved by the informed members of the "tech press" is based on unstubstantiated crap - Anti Virus Software has evolved to have a very close intertaction with the workings of operating systems - i need more detail here.

I know there are a few very good exeptions, but remember the "maps fiscao" One reviewer for a "National" UK paper chose the location of paper's own offices as a test - Clearly a "Direct entry" command orentated professional captain of the digital universe.

We need a professional computer support persons's rumor network.

[ A personal note: developing software is a war of arttrition - I know it.... The reluctance of IT support staff to embrace "New technology" is founded in years of miserable experence "of the survivours" of modern commercial practice. Incremental change, Ka-San as a management process has been proven to work. Sorry to be so miserable - Bah Hum bug !]

CAT III

Cat III:

I did the 8.1 on a new ASUS laptop, which arrived with 8. First I had to do all the updates, so that it would in fact go out and find 8.1 on the update site. There were close to 100 updates to 8 alone.

After that, if I recall, the 8.1 showed up as an available update at Microworst's update site. The download was huge, something like 160 megs. (I don't know my "iso's" from a hole in the ground!) The whole process of updating and installing took all of 6 hours, on my DSL broadband line. I'm glad I didn't try to do it on my alternate 4g line, which has a monthly limit.

I have to admit, I was really surprised that when rebooted for the final time, 8.1 booted up and ran without a hitch.

obgraham
 

After posting - I found this but all the usual warnings apply.

How to download the official Microsoft Windows 8.1 ISO | How To - CNET

CNET is reputable (I have used the site for ligitimate downloads) but for me the process is untried.

CAT III

Mac, Windows, Linux I don't care... people who don't have a decent backup routine in place FROM DAY ONE are idiots.

Drives fail, software goes AWOL, user errors happen AT ANY TIME .... no backup routine and you're asking for trouble.

Bit strongly worded perhaps, it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who significantly underestimate the importance of a good backup routine ! :E

(not aimed at CATIII-NDB, talking in general here...)

Oh for gods sake....

Its not about power users, its not about supporting Microsoft.

Its to do with the stability of your system, and more importantly the SECURITY of your system.

If you do online banking, undertake e-commerce transactions, keep personal and private information on your PC, you MUST move away from XP.

The only safe XP machine after the 8th of April will be one that is PERMANANETLY disconnected from the internet.

Anti-Virus relies on the OS, in the APIs and other aspects of the OS. Find holes in the APIs that don't get patched up and your Anti-Virus is a worthless pile of code.

As I've said before, if I were a member of the dark side community, I would be holding back my best exploits and indeed putting more effort into finding new exploits because I would know how stubborn many XP users will be and hence quality exploits post-April will be worth more than gold.

Mixture
 

In my case it was a single point of failure. Me. (re post #17)

Those regular USB stick copies (nested duplicates) + to my suprise, an encrypted copy of my Passwords in the "cloud" came in very handy. After 7 years use I had to really work hard to re establish a working system and I thought I was safe.

To back up your post - The rule of multiple paths of redundancy applies to everyone.

Re the later post, the bad ones and they are clever, will no doubt have a treasure trove, of grief, using techniques that cannot really be discussed here that could be applied across "families of operating systems"

To really look at the dark side of things, like the well known abuse of cryptography now being applied for extortion.

CAT III

Thank you for all your contributions. I've also read through this other current thread here.

Whilst I've known for some time (ever since I bought a new E-IDE 160GB hard disk 3 or 4 years ago and first came across the term SATA, then had to replace my dead graphics card a few months ago with a dusty old generic AGP card supporting 1 monitor only - all I could find on a Saturday morning, which cost €25 at the local PC shop...), that I would have to eventually replace my 10 year old DELL PC, the lack of continued Microsoft support was what most worries me. My last DELL PC cost me €1500 (came with XP Pro) back in 2003. Before that, it was another DELL, bought in 1997 with Office SBE. In between though, I also received a gift "for services rendered" to Microsoft's Paul Allen and his yacht MEDUSE in the form of a retail pack of MS Office 2000.

Everything works for me today: DELL PC / XP PRO SP3 / OFFICE 2000 / IE8 / OUTLOOK EXPRESS 6 etc. and if there's one thing I've learned about IT - if it works, then don't touch it?! OK, fewer websites are willing to ensure that their sites are 100% compatible with IE8, but otherwise...?

The GOOD NEWS is that though my last DELL cost me €1500, it appears that I could currently buy a OPTIPLEX 3020 with INTEL i3-4130 4th generation 3.4GHz / 3MB dual-core processor with integrated graphics card / 500GB hard disk, supplied with Windows 7 PRO (with Windows 8 64bit OS license - whatever that means) for €349 + VAT (without monitor or delivery charges). MS OFFICE 2013 (Family - SBE) available for €199 extra (I need Word and Excel). So the financial cost is not so great a "shock" as what I thought it might be.

What I do not look forward to especially is spending several days at least learning about and configuring the new PC / OS etc. to work "just how I'd like it to", transferring all the data from the old PC to the new PC (presumably would not be able to install the old E-IDE hard disks to the new PC?), then trying to re-install my favourite (and paid-for) programs accumulated over the years which worked on XP PRO... :{

2 last questions for the sages here though:

1) Would it make more sense to spend a few hundred € more than the DELL hardware above? I don't do any video-editing etc., but my 10 year old DELL was the "bee's knees" when I originally bought it, just in case I meet any Fort Bragg types...

2) Concerning Windows 7 PRO, was that a reliable OS? Apparently the DELL PC would come with that as standard together with "a Windows 8 64 bits" license. Would that allow me to upgrade to Windows 8.1 (and would I want to)?

We have used Open Office/Apache products on our machines for several years. As good as MS and free. Not quite as many bells and whistles, mostly not needed anyway.
https://www.openoffice.org/
If you have concerns regarding compatibility of file formats, there are solutions to that. When I send documents out I save and send them as .pdf. If the recipients need to work on them you can save and send in MS Office format.
I have nothing against MS other than their market domination, and the cost of it would be borne by my clients anyway if I chose to bill it to them, but I like supporting other providers than those who dominate.

Indeed. There was a nice little blog post somewhere in the depths of the Microsoft website that pointed out that of the many recent patches issued for Windows 7 and Windows 8, Windows XP was also patched at the same time as it was vulnerable.

Hence, as the article went on to point out, it doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to guess that the "dark side" will make a profitable business out of "back-porting" Windows 7 and Windows 8 vulnerabilities by reverse-engineering the 7/8 patches them and creating exploits for XP.

Yeah, those are some pretty scary ones. I personally haven't seen them in action, but I've heard a few war stories.

Mixture
 

Bang on the nail. Yes I saw the article too - We both read the same Mag - I did not want to scare people - Some of the implications were covered by "Security Now" this week at the end of the podcast. I have no conncetion with the producers -

Mods that podcast is spsonsored feel free to delete this if you wish.

CAT III

Edit: The crypto Scam: It's over a 100 users in the UK mainly SMB customers by E-M phishing apparently as the first vector.

quick reply
 

W7 pro. Rock solid in my experience. Only 2 crashes since I installed it just after release; both of 'em due to faulty usb sticks.
Unlike XB, which crashed quite frequently.

*cough*

Windows XP: Microsoft?s ticking time bomb | Analysis | Features | PC Pro

I'm delighted with the fully transportable KeePass. Mind you, I haven't forgotten the master password yet.


Nice link, Mr Mouse.


And coupled with a custom shell, I really found some common ground with W7. I didn't try it, but there is a download to stop the selected items hogging the entire screen. I never did contain Skype, however. Under W8 it seemed to have a (determined) mind of its own - even when I got an old copy running the new one fought its way back. The rest would have been fun . . . for someone who hadn't got a day job to do.

I'm not sure I'm going to have the courage to stick with 8.1 when I do load a kosher copy on my 'new' laptop.

airship, stick with windows 7, at least until you're sure you want to dive in to windows 8.

If there are people who absolutely cannot / will not migrate from XP, you might want to consider the mouthful that is Microsoft Windows Embedded POS-Ready 2009. Technically it's not XP but Windows Embedded as the name suggests... however, it's still NT 5.1 32-bit, seems to be 100% compatible, and you can configure it to look / feel the same (very easily, by copying Luna theme files from an XP PC).
What's more, it's supported with security updates until 2019, and that's not a typo.
More info (PDF): http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=159099

And you might want to consider the various licensing restrictions .... the first one being you can't run Office apps on it.

Seems to me that it would be a good moment for governments to intervene and put an end to this nonsense about dictated obsolescence and cessation of support. Good software should be expected to last 20 years.

Anyone know if governments make arrangements for the software that they buy to be supported outside the public arena ?

Says someone who has evidently not spent much time in the IT industry, let alone software development.

"dictated obsolescence and cessation of support" is a nonsense that only uneducated consumers spout out.

IT is complex with a rapid pace of change, all parties involved have to continually adapt to new developments (and new requirements from customers). Developing software costs a shedload of money, maintaining software costs another shedload of money.... you can't support it all for ever, it simply would not make a viable business model.

And before you spout the words "open source"....no, that model doesn't work either. Sure you've got access to armies of "free" coders, but the design, QA, documentation, end-user support and other aspects are poor ! Open Source has its uses, but you have to be able to put up with its downsides.

"Good software should last for 20 years" .... yeah, right ! :rolleyes:

Anyone with enough money in their bank account can write Microsoft a cheque which will extend the support coverage of EOL software for up to 3 years post EOL date.

Odd that the software I wrote was certainly in use 20 years after it was written, and there was even then little prospect of it being replaced.

In the world you describe most customers are best advised to find a good model and stick to that model for 10 to 20 years ie only change product when there is good reason to change.

You also appear to be overlooking the fact that support costs after ten years are likely to be pretty trivial.

The reason for my original question was that I would expect any end-user buying thousands of computers to insist that software support continued for 20 years. Assuming that a few buyers have shown that level of common sense then the additional cost of providing support for everybody is negligible. In fact, ceasing support becomes a marketing decision.

Codswallop. By all means fix the stuff under the hood so the nasties can't give me a new virus, but making your software all airy, fairy, floaty and different-looking just because it gives the latest geeks a buzz is not necessary and just makes life harder for a lot of us who just want to do productive things with their computers and not have the hassle of working out how a "new" program works to achieve the same thing.

Let me guess, it was something niche, specialist and of limited scope. Some sort of embedded system like an FMS ?

I still maintain that you are very much still wearing rose tinted spectacles if you seriously think a modern Operating System, or modern general PC software should last 20 years !

The vast majority of large buyers operate on a 3 to 5 year lifecycle. Quite frankly, talking about 20 years for generic office (or home) systems is simply ludicrous. I think you very well know that.

occasional, if you want to live with a 20 year old OS then feel free to revert to say Win3.1. Good luck on getting any recent software to run on it. You can only keep patching in new technology for so long before it all falls over under the weight of hacks to get stuff working. And your support costs only fall to zero after 10 years if your product is frozen.

mixture, exactly how much support does closed source give to the average home user, or small office user? None, aside form patches and opens source does exactly that too.

@Booglebox
POS-Ready 2009 could be a handy alternative. Let's hope there is a way to run MS-Office on that. MS-Office is the only thing that is stopping me from migrating to Linux. I used to use Openoffice and LibreOffice before(even on Windows), but since I have moved to MS-Office, I have been hooked. Totally worth it. Now, I can't imagine moving back to other office apps.

Secondly, can't run FS2004 or FSX on Linux.

As I said above, for those people thinking of jumping on the silly idea of using POS rather than migrating to Windows 7 or 8... READ THE LICENSE AGREEMENT. For a start, no, you cannot run Office on it, they explicitly tell you that in the agreement.

POS-Ready is a specific product for a specific application. POS = Point of Sale.... your home computer (or office computer) is not a Point of Sale.

People should just bite the bullet and move to 7 or 8 rather than clinging on to old stuff.

Windows Vista was a terrible OS.
Windows 7 is what Vista should have been.

Whilst 7 is a decent OS, if I were you, since you're starting from a clean slate on a new system, I would just bite the bullet and use Windows 8.1. Better to start learning now then have to face the inevitable a few years down the line. The added benefit of using 8/8.1 rather than 7 is it buys you an extended period of support from Microsoft, given that 8/8.1 is the current product, and 7 is gradually being phased out (end of Mainstream support 2015, end of extended support 2020 .... compared to 8 with dates of 2018 and 2023 respectivley)

Two words .... Linker Libraries.

You see, *nix/*nux systems nothing but a collection of software. You've got the kernel and you've got all the third-party software. All this jumble of software is developed and patched up by individual groups of people. There is no real overall picture despite what certain distributions might try to portray.

What that means is if you've got software on your Linux box that was compiled against, say version 0.9 of the OpenSSL libraries, but then your next patch pull from the Linux Distribution updates the OpenSSL libraries to 1.0, which breaks your software.

On the other hand, with closed source, the Operating System developer makes APIs available to third-party software developers. As the Operating System manufacturer patches and enhances their Operating System, they ensure as part of the QA process that the APIs still work as advertised.

Seriously, how many Linux users compile their own software? They don't. They just pull it from the repository where the distro provider looks after the dependencies.

For the average end user there is no difference.

Users might not, but they may well use third-party software not sourced from the distro repository.

Also the distro repository doesn't always take care of the dependencies that well, you can't rely on it. That's the whole point I'm making, the individual libraries are all individual little open source projects that happen to have been selected to be part of the distro repository. No promise is made that the distro cares about dependency compatibility ... they'll just continue rolling out updates to the individual packages. They simply do not have the manpower or the will to cross-check every single dependency for compatibility with all the other packages they distribute. The distros may also remove packages at a whim. That is why the closed source model of documented exposed APIs is better.

I'm not anti open-source, its just a case of the right tool for the right job. For the average home user, the hassle of open source is really not worth it when the Microsoft or Apple communities are larger and better supported.

And they may well not use anything other than repo sourced software. The truth is the vast majority of the software that users use only comes from repositories.

Can't recall the last time software downloaded via a repository failed due to unsatisfied dependencies.