Maybe, maybe not, and maybe dependencies might not have been the best example but I've seen lots of examples where software has failed due to failure of one of its dependencies, following an update of one of its dependencies due to a change in configuration file format of the dependency binary.

Could Windows 8x be another Vista in the making?

Re opensource repositories you can set up global parameters to preserve backwards compatability. I used to maintain BSD repos and they took a full day to build with some cyclic dependency issues and some tricks to get tools that had obscure X11 library dependencies to build. Not for the faint hearted.

Switched to rpm based distros and never had any issues as long as you updated frequently and paid attention to the release notes.

I came onto this forum for a completely different purpose and tripped over this thread.

So, it would appear that I finally need to get my@rse in gear and update from XP: quite honestly, no surprise there. Being no expert, I had a quick look around and it would seem that installing W8 would result in most of my programs becoming unuseable - again no surprise, we've moved on from Photoshop Elements V2, I guess (:O) and I haven't used Photosuite 4 for some years, so I could do without that. My weather station is compatible with W7 - is that also too early to work on W8? Also new drivers would be necessary for my Canon MX310 printer - I can cope with that. Microsoft Office? Something newer than Office 2003.:bored:

Doing a quick Belarc analysis:

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/a...psa032e637.jpg

I guess I'd need a separate graphics card as I only have 'on-board' graphics, but the rest looks OK to me.

I also have a 2005 vintage laptop (Patriot - PC World branded Advent 7063M) which I assume I'll have to chuck or convert to Linux or Ubuntu; Google Earth won't work on it any more and there's only room for about 1Gb RAM.

My wife has an ASUS Eee(e?) notebook, about 4 years old, also on XP so I assume that that needs a different version of W8.

Rather a lot in one go, I know , but I'd rather get the process sorted out before I'm standing before a computer shop owner who is gently salivating at the thought of his profits for the year suddenly rocketing.:E
GG

I would upgrade from XP, ideally to Win 7 if you can get hold of a legit copy, otherwise Win 8.1 with the "legacy look", which fixes most of the silliness.

I would stay with Office 2003 if it does what you want.

I bought Office 2007 and found it so bloated with stuff I would never use that I couldn't find the stuff I do use. It has silly ribbons that drop down (as if I needed that many options), and the icons move around depending on which ribbon you/re on. I gave it to my neighbour's daughter, who likes lots of buttons and the like, and went back to 2003 which I still use.

Win 8 is a nightmare (based on three days I spent with it before going back to Win 7, and several comments from other folks whose opinion I respect). Happily, with Win 8.1 there is an option to set it to look and feel like Win 7.

As for drivers - you may be lucky and find that the old ones still work.

I would suggest that most people who buy a PC simply want it to continue doing what they bought it for, until it dies from physical failure. For the great majority , adapting to new technology is of neglible interest, and I doubt that anyone buys a computer to run a program which will be developed in ten years time.

All they need is that the PC keep running the hardware that they originally purchased.

Even so I am amazed at the inability of developers to make software reasonably compatible from one generation to the next.

As far as I am aware XP is frozen.

Nothing niche or specialist. Much like the stuff that goes into Microsoft operating systems.

I can think of no good reason that a modern operating system should not last 20 years. The only impediment in principle would appear to be the fact that it does not suit software suppliers.

On occasions an OS may be superseded by events that come as a surprise to the supplier. The appearance of viruses, etc.on a massive scale is clearly such an event, but such a surprise is hardly a normal occurrence.

Which might be one reason why people manage to spend extraordinary amounts of money on systems which never get to work. If a hardware supplier had told me that they were working on that sort of lifecycle the conversation would not have continued for much longer, and that was when electronic equipment was far less reliable than it is today.

Ludricrous to who ? The supplier or the customer.

occasional, you'd be happy using a browser that can't access most of the Internet in a usable manner then?

That's the gaping hole in your desire for no change. Many other things move on so your OS needs to as well to keep up.

Remember Win98 and it's security model (or lack thereof)? Would you seriously wish that on anyone in this day and age?

XP might be frozen, but it doesn't mean support costs are nothing. Age doesn't mean no new security flaws. There will be some cracker flaws "released" post April.

occasional,

There is a phrase occasionally used on forums ......

"Don't feed the troll"

I'm afraid I'm going to decline from replying to any more of your ludicrous rants demanding software that lasts 20 years. Try as I might, I can't see any genuine reason for your statements apart from trying to stir things up with some deliberately controversial posts that have no sound reasoning behind them.

Seriously. Just think about all the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years. Think about all great developments that are yet to come in the next 20. Then contemplate if you really want to be locked into something equivalent to Windows 3.1 or the Sinclair QL in 20 years time.

Thanks Keef, I'll try that.:ok:

GG

Keef,
I did upgrade my Office from 2003, which I liked, to 2007, which is far too clever for me. It is so different that I can actually do less with it.........

Next time I am conned in to getting the newer, better, I'll keep a copy of the old one, just in case.
BUT - as mixture points out, I am glad that I'm not still on 98 or 3.1.

Many years ago, a wise boss told me it's a nifty idea to be the first to be second - you can learn from the mistakes of the bloke who's too fast off the block.

The other lesson was "always have a path back" - I still have (to this day) the install disks for my Office 2003: this is the third or fourth PC they've been installed on. The updates take a while these days, and the .docX .xlsX and .pptX converters are needed, but I still copy over my "settings" file with things the way I like them.

I still have my two Win 7 install DVDs (I thought I needed two - one for the desktop, one for the laptop). When Win 7 goes, unless there's something as good on offer from MS, I suspect I'll be joining my techie pals round here and using Linux.

It can run Office 2007 portable. I will wait till people start installing this OS to find out if there are any issues.

The problem is that I am not sure if the hardware I have (from 2007) will be able to handle Win 8. Even if it does install, I think it will slow the system down by not leaving enough RAM for other applications.

Did you even bother to read my post ? Clearly not because all that stupid link you posted is demonstrating people operating in contravention of the license agreement .... Which is illegal.

You are NOT allowed to run Office on POS. End of story.

C'mon Mix, at least use the right terminology. There is nothing illegal about it. It might contravene a licensing agreement but show me a jurisdiction that has a law covering this. Don't tell me you think copyright infringement is theft as well.....

If you're using a mainstream Linux distro then it handles all of that for you. It's no worse than using Windows Update, which has had its howlers over the years. Just occasionally I'll have a hiccup when doing an update, but that's usually because I'm trying to do an update that is still being rolled out to the various mirror sites and it resolves itself (i.e. works) within a few hours.

I would say that Linux Mint is a perfectly adequate replacement for XP if all you need to do is web browsing, read email and do a bit of word processing. It will put in a decent performance on old hardware that can't handle newer Windows versions, too. There's the added advantage of not needing all that anti-virus software slowing the machine down, too.

Linux works perfectly on my XP-era EeePC. Certainly much better than Window 8 is likely to.

Almost all of which happened before XP went mainstream. About the only major change since then has been the rise of multi-core CPUs, and even that wasn't such a big deal since my first XP machine was running on a hyperthreading CPU that faked two cores.

A major new OS every couple of years made sense in the 80s and 90s, when technology was changing so fast. It makes no sense today, other than to force users to pay to 'upgrade' when they don't want to.

I just installed a Linux distribution called "Zorin", which is designed to look and feel a bit like Windows. It certainly runs much better than W7 on a little Samsung Netbook.

Have switched to Apple for the main computer now though!

JJ.

XP Pro and IE8...
 

Just tried accessing the official French lot(t)o website, to check the results from Wednesday's draw (and to find out if I'd won enough to buy a new PC). Not only could I not check any results, I couldn't even play Friday's EuroMillions draw using my online account (with remaining credit) with them. :{

The FDJ apparently insists on upgrading from IE8 to a newer version, or else installing Firefox, Safari or Chrome...?! MS Update confirms that IE8 is the most recent (last) version for XP.

They're "all ganging up on me" apparently. I reckon the EU should immediately open investigatations as to whether or not there has been any collusion or malpractice, anti-competitive behaviour here...?! :mad:

Well airship, the Holocene has well and truly arrived, WinXP users are the Neanderthal meeting their demise in a cave in Spain and the world is moving on.

Anti-competitive? Really?!? MS itself is telling you to stop using IE8 & WinXP. FDJ is very sensibly looking at protecting their business by insisting users use a supported browser.

:D :} :E :ok:

Did you ever read the iTunes / iOS agreement? For a while they had a clause where they own your soul, as a joke, because they knew nobody would ever read it.

Anyway, regardless of licensing agreements, it's a bit daft to run POS2009 because it's not actually XP but XP Embedded which is a bit different and not necessarily 100% compatible, and compatibility is the only reason you should have for running this... making the Vista GUI look like XP is probably much easier.
Running Office 2003 on POS2009 is stupid because although the OS gets security updates, Office doesn't.

I agree.

Airship, you have my sympathies. :ok:

The nerds have taken over the asylum.

Where did you get that stupid old wives tale from.

Apple and other corporate legal departments have better things to do with their time than to put in joke clauses into agreements.

Stop spouting nonsense.

The nerds have always been running it. The problem children are those who think a computer is just another appliance. It's not.

Hands up who is still using the same level of hardware they first used WinXP on? Thought not. Technology is still changing rapidly. Having to stop using an OS after 12 years is hardly an onerous rate of change.

There are some great bits of developer nonsense out there. The Co I joined back in 75 spent rather a lot of money on mainframes and owned a lot of its own cables. (Including ones to various Colonial outposts, such as the USA).
Anyway, we had a "messaging" system back in 75, built on the back of the HR/payroll systems. Plain text only, on dumb terminals, and lurid green text on the screen, but it worked. By the early 80s I could send messages to most parts of the Empire.
Planted all over the place were the names of the developers. The only one I remember as it was easy to find was one developer's name upside down at the bottom of the login screen.
When I asked why they were there, the reply was simply "Because we could".

Sure... those are known as Easter Eggs. But there's substantial a difference between that and alleging that legal departments from large companies quoted on the stock market inject "joke" clauses into their agreements.

Just think about all the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years.

Statement requires substantiation.

I fail to comprehend why you and others are suddenly digging up this old thread from the grave.

I failed to see back then why I should waste my time on such stupid arguments as to why I should even have to remotely demonstrate why software should not remain the same for 20 years, and I still fail to see why I should waste my time now.

I suspect certain people here are just trying to be deliberately controversial. I didn't bite at such trolling then and I won't bite at such trolling now.

Over and out.

Wrong. :hmm:
Check Out Apple's iOS 7 Terms & Conditions (PICTURE)

Furthermore:
How dare you! I will spout whatever I like :}

No.

For a start.... shall I point you to the URL you just linked me to .....

apple-ios7-spoof-terms-and-conditions_n_3960016.html


My emphasis.

Or perhaps the credit under the photo ?

Again, my emphasis.

Do I need to embarrass you any further ? :E

Alright, fair cop :O

Update 01/02/2014...
 

Many thanks for your sympathy Capn Bloggs.

Subsequent to a conversation I had with our "IT man" who looks after the company's system (comprising 1 x server, 8 x PCs + accounting software) etc. on early Friday afternoon, I down-loaded Firefox (having also considered Google's Chrome and Apple's Safari). I did some rapid research online, and found that IBM recommended that Firefox be the standard browser that all their employees should have installed at work. So, the installation was rapid and entirely trouble-free which was a huge relief - all my IE8 connections, security settings, favourites etc. appear to have been taken into account. I was able to immediately check if I'd won anything on last Wednesday's lotto draw (2 EUR?!) and play the Euromillions on Friday (no, I was not the French national who won the EUR 70 million+ jackpot). :{

Our "IT man" also commented on my ca. 2003 DELL DIMENSION XPS hardware (Pentium 4-266Mhz-512MB RAM expandable to 1024MB): Absolutely no point trying to upgrade to Windows 7 (any version of - I asked if he might have some licenses that he might have recovered or have spare for sale, no) on this hardware. In his experience, even Windows 7 needs 2-4GB RAM to work well. And considers Windows 8 or 8.1 to be untested and too recent to have much to say about these (other than 8 being a complete disaster, verdict out on 8.1) other than to affirm that you'd need a very recent PC equipped with a min. of 4GB RAM for either to work satisfactorily. And didn't think that DELL's recent offers (around EUR 4-500 excl. VAT for their lowest-priced office PCs) were worth considering from a hardware point-of-view. Of course he might say that, as 5 out of the 8 PCs in our office are old and still running XP PRO. He's prepared a quotation for their replacement before April 2014, perhaps I could "wangle-in" one for use at home into that...?! :ok:

PS. Still using IE8 for PPRuNe though. (I "checked" the necessary box concerning whether or not Firefox should be my "default browser". So now have 3 web browsers available (MS IE8, customised IE7 supplied by the ISP and Firefox) and pinned to the start menu. I don't consider them as wives (or I a Muslim). I prefer France's President Hollande's version - they're just concubines (unlimited in numbers under Islam and apparently also as 1st ladies in France)... ;)

You know Mixture, your relationship with and reaction to anything not overly positive about Apple is thoroughly unnatural and unhealthy.

It is just not normal behaviour.

Fact of the matter is, I don't mind if people have bad things to say about Apple. But those things must be genuine.... not just jumping on the Apple-bashing bandwagon, spewing out unsubstantiated nonsense .... or even, in the case of the most recent example, trying to pass off a blatant spoof as the real thing.

The simple truth is that most Apple bashers here are just doing so because its the fashionable thing to do, and not because they have any genuine issue to report.

Finally, please, don't try to portray me as some sort of deluded Apple fan, I am not. I use all four major platforms..... Windows, Mac, Linux and BSD (i.e. over and above than Apple OS X BSD) .... so I'm well aware of the pros and cons of each, thank you very much.

There's an excellent article on post-April XP use, by Rick Maybury in today's Saturday Telegraph. Page 12 of the Business Section.

It confirms what many professionals* have said to me over the past months.

*Professionals without an axe to grind, BTW., so probably not contributing to this particular thread.

I still fail to see why I should waste my time now

I only asked WHAT are the great developments in hardware and software over the last 20 years ?

FYI, I have a PC running XP tied to the usual peripherals and a WIN8 laptop, ditto, side by side on my desk, both up and running, I use both, and I cannot see any effects of supposed "great developments" between the two since both do what I want to do in a comparable time (since most of what I do is on the Cloud which means I'm tied to the speed of the shared WiMax link)....unless you mean the touchscreen (which I don't use).

Of course if you are going to mention portable computing such as phones, pads, tablets etc. I agree with you wholeheartedly - but that wasn't to what I was referring.

that was a genuine mistake :uhoh:
Also you should listen to KBPsen, and take a more objective view of criticism of Apple stuff. Others have had experiences with it that you haven't had :cool:

Anyway, airship: your IT chap seems to know what he's talking about, more-or-less.
I don't know what country you're in, but it might make sense to buy refurbished machines from the UK via eBay, e.g. here. These will run 7 just fine.
You won't have warranty support etc. but as they are so cheap, you can just buy a couple extra as spares.

Okay.... well, we can start with anything internet, email and voice over IP related.

Whether it's backend stuff like the vast changes from simple static HTML 3.2 pages to the modern HTML5/CSS/AJAX driven sites.

Or Skype which emerged out of nowhere in 2003, and by 2011 widespread enough for Microsoft to reckon it was worth writing out a cheque for $8.5 billion.

Or we could look at the vast improvements in the Apple platform from the old PowerPC and OS 7/8/9 to the present Intel and OS X platform (OS X has undergone an amazing transformation itself from its original 10.0 to the present, incredibly powerful 10.9).

Alternatively, we could look at hardware.... which has reduced in size and yet is faster and more efficient than could ever have been imagined.

The developments in the last 20 years are simply too innumerable to list.

Given I've been using Macs since the days of the SE series and OS 7.1, and have used pretty much all of their hardware and operating system software in-between (including clones and Be), I think I've had more than enough experience with the platform to know it inside out.

So by all means present me with conflicting viewpoints, all I ask is that you do your homework first, otherwise you risk being rebutted with varying degrees of force depending on the stupidity of the unsubstantiated viewpoint proposed ! :E

The Apple platform is by no means perfect, no platform is, there is no such thing as perfection in IT, nor is there really such a thing as one thing being better than another in IT. However the Apple platform is exceedingly far from being the bug ridden, insecure, locked-down, evil platform that many here have enjoyed making it out to be over the years...

Tesco and XP Pro.
 

A few weeks back I was in the local Tesco store and I noticed one of the staff terminals booting up. I don't mean the tills, I mean those terminals that are dotted around the store for staff use.

I was a little surprised to see it booting up with XP Pro. A few days later my curiosity got the better of me and I asked a young chap if indeed they were running XP Pro and he replied yes. He had no idea about the coming support issue.

There must be thousands of these machines just in the UK. I'm just curious how the organisation would approach this. Just curious!

Chalk and cheese between the common home user (and SME businesses) and big business/government, broadly six reasons :

(a) The latter can afford to write Microsoft a big fat cheque after April in order to continue receiving support and updates on XP for a limited period of time (even they can't continue paying forever ... I think the programme's going to run for 3 years).

(b) They have a substantial IT department (there will be people there whose sole job it is to deal with desktop systems and no other part of the IT estate..... maybe even one or two people who only deal with XP systems on the estate).

(c) As a result of (b) The systems are locked down tight on the corporate domain.

(d) The machines will either be on a separate VLAN with no internet access, or on a VLAN with internet access but which is heavily filtered upstream by corporate security infrastructure (e.g. emails are heavily vetted on their servers, web browsing is filtered elsewhere on the network etc.).

(e) Further to (d), they probably run IDS and IPS systems on their networks so they can detect and act on intrusions and infections.

(f) With the possible exception of point of sale tills which may run a little longer, there is no doubt an upgrade rollout programme in place for general IT infrastructure .... the fact that the average employee in the branch knows nothing about it is no surprise... the only people will know scheduling are HQ, the IT department and the branch manager.

Basically, in a corporate environment, desktops (and other end-user devices) are treated as dumb, unsafe, readily disposable and replaceable. Anything important is saved (files) or done (filtering, security etc.) elsewhere.

There is also a trend amongst certain types of corporates towards a new BYOD (Bring Your Own Device) where the corporate provides the infrastructure, and the employee brings the laptop/desktop/iPad to do their work on. This obviously only really works for environments where there is a large roaming or teleworker employee population, and also requires modern thinking on the part of the IT department (in addition to a wholesale rethinking and reconfiguration of security). Don't see it being a thing for Tesco given they are on a HQ and branch model. But its an interesting development no doubt (Shell were one of the surprising early adopters a few years ago as part of the Jericho Forum which they founded).

Due to lack of budget and manpower, life is different at home and in an SME, and why it is utterly unacceptable to run obsolete software that may have a substantial security impact (i.e. Operating Systems, Web Browsers, Email Clients etc.). Operating Systems being more dangerous than all others due to their being the foundation of all other security..... poor foundations = no security.

mixture, thanks for reply, I was just a little curious.

No worries... happy to sort out curious minds. :cool:

OFSO, Are you referring to this article? Will my XP computer cease working? - Telegraph

I'm neither a computer professional nor have an axe to grind but the logic behind saying continuing to use WinXP is okay defeats me. Personally my preferred OS is Linux but I routinely use Windows and less frequently OS X. I don't care what you use as long as it's supported.

To go from imploring users to install security updates ASAP to saying "she'll be right" (to use the Aussie vernacular) just because security updates are no longer being produced post April makes no sense.

I particularly liked this claim: "hackers and crackers are much more interested in finding loopholes in later versions of Windows".

You've got to be joking. With an "estimated 20 to 25 percent of PC users still using XP" who won't be getting security updates, you're the low hanging fruit of security issues. You'll be perpetually vulnerable to any security flaw that comes along after April. If you don't think the black hats don't have a few saved up especially I've got a bridge to sell at a special price just for you.

Someone should tell Mr Maybury that MSE will be receiving updates on WinXP until July 2015:
Microsoft antimalware support for Windows XP - Microsoft Malware Protection Center - Site Home - TechNet Blogs